Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

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Ketsuban
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Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

Post by Ketsuban »

I have never pronounced almond (or salmon) with an L in it. I know people have punned on salmon and salmonella, but it's a pun you have to work for.
Travis B.
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Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

Post by Travis B. »

Ketsuban wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2023 7:41 am I have never pronounced almond (or salmon) with an L in it. I know people have punned on salmon and salmonella, but it's a pun you have to work for.
To me salmonella has two /l/s in it.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka ha wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate ha eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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Emily
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Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

Post by Emily »

m
the intro notes that m is always pronounced as written, except the first one in mnemonic and the one in comptroller (which is pronounced "controller")
  • a schwa is sometimes inserted into /lm/ in "popular English": elm [ˈɛləm], helm [ˈhɛləm], film [ˈfɪləm]
  • pumpkin is generally [ˈpʌm(p)kɪn] but in dialectal english commonly [ˈpʌŋk(ɪ)n]
n
  • poignant is [ˈpɔɪnənt]
  • Bologna is standard [bəˈloːnjə], popularly often [bəˈloːnɪ]
  • the spelling canyon "is now commonly used" but the standard spelling he lists is cañon
  • señor is customarily pronounced [ˈsiːnˌjɔɹ]
  • kiln is [kɪl], though the spelling pronunciation [kɪln] "is also heard"
  • chimney is often rendered [ˈtʃɪm(b)lɪ] in popular english
  • the /n/-less pronunciation of government (i.e. [ˈgʌvɚɹˌmɛnt] instead of [ˈgʌvɚɹnˌmɛnt]) is "often" heard in "popular pronunciation" but the standard is with an /n/ — but apparently the last syllable receives secondary stress and is pronounced with a clear /ɛ/)
ŋ
  • conch is pronounced [kɔŋk]
  • he states that words with initial congr- are pronounced [ˈkɑŋgr-] when stressed, but [kənˈgr-] (with /n/) when unstressed
  • con- followed by [k] "varies indifferently between [kɑn-] and [kɑŋ-]": concave, concubine, conclave, concord, concourse, concrete (the only noted exception is conquer, conqueror, which always have [ŋ])
  • other words with nqu or ngu also so essentially free variation between [n] and [ŋ], "with the preference perhaps in favor" of [n]: banquet, Banquo, lingual, linguistic
  • [ŋθ] often becomes [nθ] in popular speech: length, lengthen, strength, strengthen
  • final unstressed [n] sometimes becomes [ŋ] in dialect speech: kitchen [ˈkɪtʃɪŋ], chicken [ˈtʃɪkɪŋ], garden [ˈgɑrdɪŋ]; he also lists heavens [ˈhɛvɪŋz] but calls it facetious
  • the reduction of [ŋ] to [n] in present participles occurs "in dialect speech and sometimes also in colloquial cultivated speech", though in cultivated speech it's more general in england than america; "In both countries, however, the authority of academic opinion is strongly against it"
  • final [ŋ] sometimes becomes [ŋk] in dialect speech, "chiefly in the larger cities and in speakers of foreign birth or tradition"; it is more common in unstressed syllables, but may sometimes happen in stressed syllables as well: king [kɪŋk]
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foxcatdog
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Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

Post by foxcatdog »

king/kink merger would be interesting
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Emily
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Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

Post by Emily »

p
  • p is silent in words like comptroller, psalm, pneumatic, raspberry; the latter can have either [æ] or [aː]
  • [p] is often inserted between [m] and another consonant (warmth, lymph, dreamt); it is often dropped from [mp] followed by another consonant (limped, glimpse, assumption) and is usually silent in the place names Hampshire, Hampden, Hampton
    • i personally basically can't hear the difference between (e.g.) [ms] and [mps]
r, ɹ
  • non-rhotic dialects are found "especially in the East and South" and "regularly" delete [ɹ] finally or before consonants, "but when stressed [ɹ] is omitted finally it often leaves a trace of its existence in a weak [ə]": four [ˈfɔːə], there [ˈðɛːə], fur [ˈfʌːə]
  • a deleted [ɹ] before a consonant lengthens the preceding vowel, leading to minimal pairs such as cart [kɑːt] vs cot [kɑt], hard [hɑːd] vs hod [hɑd]
  • "In Southern speech the sound of o before r and a consonant frequently becomes a vowel between [ɔː] and [oː], which may be described as a front [ɔː]", a phenomenon also taking place word-finally; this leads to three-way distinctions such as laud vs lord vs load or taw vs tore vs toe
  • [bʌst] for burst "is generally common" (no mention of the spelling "bust"); similar pronunciations like [nʌs] for nurse, [kʌs] for curse (again, no mention of "cuss") "are to be heard only in dialect and popular speech"
  • iron is standardly [ˈaɪɚɹn], [ˈaɪən]; a similar pronunciation for apron, [ˈeːpɚɹn], is heard in dialect speech
  • intrusive [ɹ] is often added "at the end of words after vowels, in unstressed and after [ɔː] in stressed syllables": idea [aɪˈdɪɚɹ], window [ˈwɪndɚɹ], Hannah [ˈhænɚɹ]. this happens most frequently when the word is followed by another word beginning with a vowel but can happen in other environments as well. this can take place "in the speech of cultivated persons" but is peculiar to new england and is "not to be recommended for imitation"
  • intrusive [ɹ] in draw, saw, however, is "illiterate or dialect speech"
  • r is sometimes inserted before a consonant after [ɔː]: chalk [tʃɔːɹk], dog [dɔːɹg], soft [sɔːɹft]; he states that this happens in dialect speech, but describes the same phenomenon as "often" found in "popular speech" in the specific words wash, Washington
  • i'm just gonna quote this directly because it kind of blew me away: "Between vowels, [r] is omitted dialectally and also by some educated speakers in a kind of feeble refined pronunciation which is not general in any locality, but is characteristic rather of individuals or small family groups, as in [ˈvɛːɪ] for very, [ˈkɛːɪ] for carry, [ˈɔːəl] for oral, [ˈfʌːɪ] for furry, etc. This pronunciation is caused by failure to bring the tongue after the pronunciation of the preceding vowel to the position required by [r], and in most instances is probably a survival of infantile pronunciations in which the movements of the organs of speech were under imperfect command."
    • he also describes as a similar phenomenon the omission of [r] in hundred [ˈhʌndəd], February [ˈfɛbəˌwɛrɪ]
  • [ˈfɛbjuˌɛrɪ] for February, however, "is not infrequently heard in cultivated speech", though [ˈlaɪbɛrɪ] for library is "juvenile and dialectal"
  • the pronunciations [ˈkætrɪdʒ] for cartridge, [ˈpætrɪdʒ] for partridge are sometimes found in popular speech
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Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

Post by bradrn »

Emily wrote: Tue Oct 24, 2023 11:40 pm
  • iron is standardly [ˈaɪɚɹn], [ˈaɪən]; a similar pronunciation for apron, [ˈeːpɚɹn], is heard in dialect speech
I have exactly* this pronunciation for iron! It took me a long time to figure out why it’s spelled the way it is, and /ajɹən/ still sounds very weird to me.

*Well, not exactly at a phonetic level, more like [ˈɑjən] in my idiolect. But you get what I mean.
  • intrusive [ɹ] is often added "at the end of words after vowels, in unstressed and after [ɔː] in stressed syllables": idea [aɪˈdɪɚɹ], window [ˈwɪndɚɹ], Hannah [ˈhænɚɹ]. this happens most frequently when the word is followed by another word beginning with a vowel but can happen in other environments as well. this can take place "in the speech of cultivated persons" but is peculiar to new england and is "not to be recommended for imitation"
I definitely hear this happen on occasion, even though both AuE and SAE are non-rhotic.
  • [ˈfɛbjuˌɛrɪ] for February, however, "is not infrequently heard in cultivated speech", though [ˈlaɪbɛrɪ] for library is "juvenile and dialectal"
In my speech these are even more reduced: [ˈfe̞bjəˌɻʷi] and [ˈɫɑ͡ɪbɻʷi] respectively.
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Travis B.
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Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

Post by Travis B. »

bradrn wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 12:18 am
Emily wrote: Tue Oct 24, 2023 11:40 pm
  • [ˈfɛbjuˌɛrɪ] for February, however, "is not infrequently heard in cultivated speech", though [ˈlaɪbɛrɪ] for library is "juvenile and dialectal"
In my speech these are even more reduced: [ˈfe̞bjəˌɻʷi] and [ˈɫɑ͡ɪbɻʷi] respectively.
/ˈfɛbjuˌɛri/ is practically standard here - only prescriptivist pedants put two /r/s in the word.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka ha wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate ha eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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äreo
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Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

Post by äreo »

Travis B. wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 10:45 am
bradrn wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 12:18 am
Emily wrote: Tue Oct 24, 2023 11:40 pm
  • [ˈfɛbjuˌɛrɪ] for February, however, "is not infrequently heard in cultivated speech", though [ˈlaɪbɛrɪ] for library is "juvenile and dialectal"
In my speech these are even more reduced: [ˈfe̞bjəˌɻʷi] and [ˈɫɑ͡ɪbɻʷi] respectively.
/ˈfɛbjuˌɛri/ is practically standard here - only prescriptivist pedants put two /r/s in the word.
Alas, teenage me was a pedant and now only the pronunciation with two /r/s feels natural to me.
Emily wrote: Tue Oct 24, 2023 11:40 pm i'm just gonna quote this directly because it kind of blew me away: "Between vowels, [r] is omitted dialectally and also by some educated speakers in a kind of feeble refined pronunciation which is not general in any locality, but is characteristic rather of individuals or small family groups, as in [ˈvɛːɪ] for very, [ˈkɛːɪ] for carry, [ˈɔːəl] for oral, [ˈfʌːɪ] for furry, etc. This pronunciation is caused by failure to bring the tongue after the pronunciation of the preceding vowel to the position required by [r], and in most instances is probably a survival of infantile pronunciations in which the movements of the organs of speech were under imperfect command."
The deletion of intervocalic /r/ is attested in old non-rhotic Deep Southern speech, though I don't think it applied around syllables with primary stress. Thus [ˌkʰæəˈlaːnə] for Carolina but never [ˈvɛːɪ] for very. It sounds (both from the way it plays out and the account of its occurrence given by the author) like the latter pattern is similar in origin to the labiodental /r/ we sporadically find in Southern British.
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Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

Post by Emily »

s, z
  • except and accept are distinguished: [ɛkˈsɛpt] vs [ækˈsɛpt]
  • think this may have come up before but he states schism is pronounced [sɪzm]
  • the standard pronunciation if grisly is [ˈgrɪslɪ]
  • grease is [griːs] but greasy is generally [ˈgriːzɪ]; he lists [ˈgriːsɪ] only as a variant, with [-z-] found in "popular usage and, in general, standard speech", though he notes some speakers make a distinction between the two pronunciations, with [-z] "being regarded as a word of unpleasant connotation"
  • many words end in [s] when used as a noun but [z] when used as a verb: advice/advise, device/devise, abuse, use. he lists grease among this category, and states that the same distinction sometimes appears in rise, though this is not common. the verb sacrifice is occasionally pronounced with [-z]
  • Missouri is commonly [mɪzˈuːrɪ], but sometimes [mɪsˈuːrɪ]; the vowel may also be [ʊ] instead of [uː] — i think the only time i've heard it with [uː] is in depeche mode's cover of "route 66", where it sticks out like a sore thumb
  • some speakers tend to pronounce [s] as [ʃ], particularly in the combination [st]: worst [wɚɹʃt], distressed [dɪsˈtrɛʃt]. he notes that "most persons find [this tendency] very disagreeable"
  • suggest is pronounced [səˈdʒɛst], no indication of even a variant with [-gdʒ-]
  • rinse can be either [rɪns] or [rɪnz] (possibly this is another example of the noun/verb distinction, though he doesn't state it); "popular dialect speech" often pronounces it [rɛntʃ]
  • Mrs. is commonly [ˈmɪsəz] or [ˈmɪsɪz], but occasionally [ˈmɪsɪs]. [ˈmɪzɪz] "is said to be a sure test of Southern speech"; another southern pronunciation is [mɪz], sometimes with a lengthened [z]
  • words with -sive usually have [s], which "is to be preferred", but sometimes they are pronounced with [z] instead: abusive, conclusive, corrosive, etc.
  • [z] is standard in comparison, jettison, unison, venison, though [s] is sometimes found in these words as well
  • words ending with -ese such as Chinese, Japanese, Maltese are usually [-iˑz] when used as attributive adjectives; when used as nouns and receiving more stress, they are "often" pronounced [-niːs]
  • he lists the pronunciation of Arkansas as [ɑɹˈkænzəs], though he notes that [ˈɑɹkənˌsɔː] is how it is pronounced in the state itself "and in the West generally"
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Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

Post by zompist »

Kind of an extra dosage of WTF this time!
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Ketsuban
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Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

Post by Ketsuban »

Emily wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:27 pm
  • the standard pronunciation if grisly is [ˈgrɪslɪ]
Gristly (cartilaginous), grisly (gruesome) and grizzly (grey) are pretty confusing, huh.
Emily wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:27 pm
  • grease is [griːs] but greasy is generally [ˈgriːzɪ]; he lists [ˈgriːsɪ] only as a variant, with [-z-] found in "popular usage and, in general, standard speech", though he notes some speakers make a distinction between the two pronunciations, with [-z] "being regarded as a word of unpleasant connotation"
I've heard this in old-person speech here in the UK, but I think as a sound change it's complete at this point.
Emily wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:27 pm
  • Mrs. is commonly [ˈmɪsəz] or [ˈmɪsɪz], but occasionally [ˈmɪsɪs]. [ˈmɪzɪz] "is said to be a sure test of Southern speech"; another southern pronunciation is [mɪz], sometimes with a lengthened [z]
This kinda just sounds like he refuses to believe "Ms" is a thing, and thinks it's obligatory to state whether a woman is married or not when introducing her.
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Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

Post by Emily »

Ketsuban wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 12:48 am
Emily wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:27 pm
  • Mrs. is commonly [ˈmɪsəz] or [ˈmɪsɪz], but occasionally [ˈmɪsɪs]. [ˈmɪzɪz] "is said to be a sure test of Southern speech"; another southern pronunciation is [mɪz], sometimes with a lengthened [z]
This kinda just sounds like he refuses to believe "Ms" is a thing, and thinks it's obligatory to state whether a woman is married or not when introducing her.
the book is a hundred years old, "ms." is about half that
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Ketsuban
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Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

Post by Ketsuban »

Hence "kinda just sounds like". I was making a funy, not trying to honestly psychoanalyse the author.
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Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

Post by Emily »

apologies
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Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

Post by Estav »

Emily wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:27 pm [*]Missouri is commonly [mɪzˈuːrɪ], but sometimes [mɪsˈuːrɪ]; the vowel may also be [ʊ] instead of [uː] — i think the only time i've heard it with [uː] is in depeche mode's cover of "route 66", where it sticks out like a sore thumb
Interesting, I'd never thought about the pronunciation before. I pronounce "Missouri" with the NURSE vowel, which I also use in words that originally had "short u" /ʌ/ + r (e.g. hurry, nourish) or "long U" + r (e.g. sure, security, jurist), but words that originally had "long oo" + r usually end up with NORTH/FORCE in my speech (e.g. poor, boor, Moor, tour, gourmet). I wonder if any substantial number of American speakers pronounce "Missouri" with NORTH/FORCE.
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äreo
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Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

Post by äreo »

Emily wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:27 pm s, z
  • words ending with -ese such as Chinese, Japanese, Maltese are usually [-iˑz] when used as attributive adjectives; when used as nouns and receiving more stress, they are "often" pronounced [-niːs]
This would sort of explain a curious divergence in my own speech: Maltese as in the language has [z], but I learned Maltese the dog breed with [s] as a kid and it feels weird to say it with [z].
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Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

Post by Nortaneous »

Emily wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:27 pm except and accept are distinguished: [ɛkˈsɛpt] vs [ækˈsɛpt]
Absence of vowel reduction in standard speech then would also explain Deseret, although IIRC there are cases where they used a vowel in an unstressed position that can only really be explained by orthographic influence.
suggest is pronounced [səˈdʒɛst], no indication of even a variant with [-gdʒ-]
As is right and proper - I don't think I heard this spelling pronunciation at all until recently, but now I don't hear it without [g].
Duaj teibohnggoe kyoe' quaqtoeq lucj lhaj k'yoejdej noeyn tucj.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
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äreo
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Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

Post by äreo »

Nortaneous wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:47 pm
Emily wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:27 pm except and accept are distinguished: [ɛkˈsɛpt] vs [ækˈsɛpt]
Absence of vowel reduction in standard speech then would also explain Deseret, although IIRC there are cases where they used a vowel in an unstressed position that can only really be explained by orthographic influence.
In Florida I heard outlet with a very conspicuous unstressed [ɛ].
suggest is pronounced [səˈdʒɛst], no indication of even a variant with [-gdʒ-]
As is right and proper - I don't think I heard this spelling pronunciation at all until recently, but now I don't hear it without [g].
As much as I dislike hearing the t in often and so on, I have always had [g] in suggest and pronounced the b in obvious. I've even heard that last pronounced with [d] for the b.
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Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

Post by Travis B. »

äreo wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 12:20 am
Nortaneous wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:47 pm As is right and proper - I don't think I heard this spelling pronunciation at all until recently, but now I don't hear it without [g].
As much as I dislike hearing the t in often and so on, I have always had [g] in suggest and pronounced the b in obvious. I've even heard that last pronounced with [d] for the b.
I am used to [sətˈtʃɜsʲtʲ] for suggest, and find the version with [g]~[k] to be a spelling pronunciation.

As for obvious, I am used to [ˈaːvːiːɘs] myself.

Edit: How on earth did I put a nasal vowel in my transcription of suggest...?
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka ha wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate ha eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)

Post by anteallach »

Travis B. wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 1:30 am I am used to [sətˈtʃɜsʲtʲ] for suggest, and find the version with [g]~[k] to be a spelling pronunciation.
Geminate affricate?
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