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Re: Working on my naming languages (thread title was edited)
Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:35 am
by Raphael
zompist wrote: ↑Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:31 pm
The syllables in gen, like the phonemes, will be used less as you go down the list. It kind of looks like you listed the CRVRC syllables before CVC or CRVC so you're getting too many of them. Another trick you can use is to list a syllable type more than once so you get more of it.
[...]
I'm not sure the long vowels work well with the very heavy syllables (e.g. drōmp). I'd be tempted to make length one of the possible R's, so you never get two consonants after a long vowel.
Thank you, I'll use those tricks when I work on the next draft.
Sorry to be negative. You're doing a lot of things right, especially in thinking about derivation and etymology.
I dunno - the more I think about it, the more I get the impression that the derivational rules are one of the biggest problems with the first draft - they are, after all, the reason why I started out with a long list of almost always monosyllabic roots and ended up with a lot of four-syllable names.
Re: Working on my naming languages (thread title was edited)
Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:35 am
by Raphael
mèþru wrote: ↑Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:00 pm
Also, think about posting this information elsewhere and linking it or making shorter lists per post.
Ok, once I've done the next draft, I'll reactivate my blog.
Re: Working on my naming languages (thread title was edited)
Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:53 am
by mèþru
Yeah, you have a lot of clipping potential. Also, some of the name derivation wouldn't seem so heavy if some of the common elements (like the word for god) were simpler syllables. You could keep the words the same but simplify them when combined with other roots.
Re: Working on my naming languages (thread title was edited)
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:48 am
by Raphael
The second draft of the Proto-1 wordlist and list of names is here! I've posted it over on my rarely-used blog:
https://guessishouldputthisupsomewhere. ... ond-draft/
Note that might be important enough to put it in boldface: I've changed the romanization scheme a bit, which might be a bit confusing for those of you who have read the earlier posts in this thread. I decided that keeping macrons, acutes, and circumflexes apart was too much of a pain on my main computer's screen.
Re: Working on my naming languages (thread title was edited)
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:24 pm
by Zaarin
I'm not sure if it's because I'm used to staring at my own conlangs, which have a strong tendency to be CV(C) and really short on anterior fricatives, but your language has a very distinctive flavor to it. (Meant as a compliment.)
Re: Working on my naming languages (thread title was edited)
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:32 pm
by Raphael
Thank you! I'm a bit worried that it might come across as "uneven", since it ended up containing both words that wouldn't look out of place in English and words that would.
Re: Working on my naming languages (thread title was edited)
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:16 pm
by zompist
The words are much improved.
Still a lot of -RC and -NC; you might consider expanding the allowed consonants a little. If chort is allowed, why not chost or chowt?
Also, I'd think about assimilation-- words like shemk and thenp are hard to say.
It seems you're uncomfortable with the 4+-syllable names you're getting, thus the shorter forms. But maybe your compounding strategy could be improved. Does "born in spring" really need to be Balkpertplepánp? Wouldn't Panpbalk do? Or, with a bit of assimilation, Pambalk?
Re: Working on my naming languages (thread title was edited)
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:45 pm
by Raphael
Thank you for your feedback.
zompist wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:16 pm
Still a lot of -RC and -NC; you might consider expanding the allowed consonants a little. If
chort is allowed, why not
chost or
chowt?
Good point. I think I'll change that.
Also, I'd think about assimilation-- words like shemk and thenp are hard to say.
I'll try to read up on assimilation. Unfortunately, at the moment I don't have any clue which words are universally hard to pronounce and which word just appear hard to pronounce to me because of my own linguistic background. Are there any good resources for that topic?
It seems you're uncomfortable with the 4+-syllable names you're getting, thus the shorter forms. But maybe your compounding strategy could be improved. Does "born in spring" really need to be Balkpertplepánp? Wouldn't Panpbalk do? Or, with a bit of assimilation, Pambalk?
But would the language still be agglutinative if it allowed that kind of thing?
Re: Working on my naming languages (thread title was edited)
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:58 pm
by zompist
Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:45 pmI'll try to read up on assimilation. Unfortunately, at the moment I don't have any clue which words are universally hard to pronounce and which word just appear hard to pronounce to me because of my own linguistic background. Are there any good resources for that topic?
POA (point of articulation) assimilation is always a safe bet. You can choose the direction:
thenp could go to
themp or
thenk. This certainly doesn't exhaust the possibilities, but you can get fancier later.
Does "born in spring" really need to be Balkpertplepánp? Wouldn't Panpbalk do? Or, with a bit of assimilation, Pambalk?
But would the language still be agglutinative if it allowed that kind of thing?
Certainly.
If you want nouns to read like ordinary NPs, you can, of course— e.g "The bear of Thor" rather than "Thor-bear". But if your people insist on long names with all the connective material, why would they also insist on shortening them?
Re: Working on my naming languages (thread title was edited)
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:53 pm
by Raphael
Re: Working on my naming languages (thread title was edited)
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:34 pm
by mèþru
Looking much better! But why <oh> when there is no <o>?
Re: Working on my naming languages (thread title was edited)
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:40 pm
by Raphael
mèþru wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:34 pm
Looking much better! But why <oh> when there is no <o>?
Thank you! I thought it might be interesting to have some vowels only in long forms and some others only in short forms.
Re: Working on my naming languages (thread title was edited)
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:42 pm
by mèþru
I mean why write it that way. Just use <o> even though its long.
Re: Working on my naming languages (thread title was edited)
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:58 pm
by Raphael
*shrugs* For the sake of precision?
Re: Working on my naming languages (thread title was edited)
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:19 pm
by Raphael
I've made my first short sample sentence, and I'm trying to turn it into a gloss as explained in the Language Construction Kit. Am I doing the glossing thing right?
Shúkrishóht trechichichízárp plek.
Spirit/deity-personifier-wise acc/dat-hundred-hundred-hundred-pl.-place past-do.pottery.
The Spirit of Wisdom "pottered" the World.
or
The Spirit of Wisdom created the Hundred Hundred Hundred Places in an act of pottery.
Re: Working on my naming languages (thread title was edited)
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:24 pm
by mèþru
Just call it oblique if accusative and dative are not distinguished. Don't use slashes, they're confusing.
Re: Working on my naming languages (thread title was edited)
Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:06 am
by zompist
I think you're on the right track... the words themselves look fine now.
Overall, I like the primeval quality of the names. But the names of deities and spirits are a little dull. It's not unnatural: e.g. the Vedic gods of Fire and the Moon were called Fire (Agni) and Moon (Candra). The spider god Anansi means Spider. But there were other gods with more interesting names.
Re: Working on my naming languages (thread title was edited)
Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:18 am
by Raholeun
"Hundred-hundred-hundred places" is a nice term, but surely in a marked register, right?
Re: Working on my naming languages (thread title was edited)
Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:56 am
by Xwtek
- I don't like how you put presentation on your prefixes. It should be tr(e)-, z(i)-, etc.
- Since your language is agglutinative, please give me verbal slot table.
- it's very uncommon for a language not to fuse number and personal marking.
- Where is pronoun and voice marking?
- I also want to know how you mark information status, either by marking focus, topic, obviation, definiteness, switch reference, or specificity. You have to mark some of them. Language without definite article is usually topic prominent or have something to do with obviation.
Re: Working on my naming languages (thread title was edited)
Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:51 pm
by Raphael
Akangka wrote: ↑Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:56 am
- I don't like how you put presentation on your prefixes. It should be tr(e)-, z(i)-, etc.
Ok, I fixed that.
[*]Since your language is agglutinative, please give me verbal slot table.
To be honest, at the moment I don't know yet what a verbal slot table is.
[*]it's very uncommon for a language not to fuse number and personal marking.
Thank you, good to know.
[*]Where is pronoun and voice marking?
I haven't really thought about pronouns yet, and I must admit that I completely forgot about voice marking.
[*]I also want to know how you mark information status, either by marking focus, topic, obviation, definiteness, switch reference, or specificity. You have to mark some of them. Language without definite article is usually topic prominent or have something to do with obviation.
I'm not sure that I really understand what you mean.
Keep in mind that the language is mainly intended as a source of names, and of later languages that themselves are mainly intended as sources of names. So I'm mainly concerned with those aspects of languages that usually end up as parts of personal or place names, such as nouns, verbs, and adjectives.