Zompist Bboard Again

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2024 5:44 am I reckon y'all are getting Americanized. Y'all're gonna be writing "honor" and "Americanized" soon.

Locales have hit the latter hard for British usage. British spelling with OED preferences is an infrequent option.

According to Wikipedia , he arrived in Pakistan in January 2002. So yeah, for almost 20 years the US was fighting in Afghanistan and he wasn't there. And for the last 10 of those years, the US government was convinced they has already killed him. So there must have been more reason for staying in A...

Afghanistan was handed over to one only marginally better. And bin Laden was not in either country. Are you sure? I remember the Taliban offering to put Osama bin Laden on trial for the attack on the WTC. And this was despite the debt of gratitude they owed him, not least for Al-Qaeda killing the l...

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:22 am rɔiᶜ → rɔ́ɔi [ร้อย ‘string’]

Better glossed as 'string (of objects)' to avoid confounding with 'twine'.

Richard, could you double-check that the Thai script is correct? Then this should be ready to add to Brassica’s set of examples. The Thai script for these words is OK. (Yes, I know the transcription is somewhat eccentric, but honestly I can’t find one that isn’t, so I thought I might as well stick ...

But when I double-checked my words with SEAlang’s dictionary, it seems that a couple ( juŋ and ʔet ) are either very rare or non-existent, so I’ll continue looking for replacements and further examples. เอ็ด ʔet 'one' is very much there; it's just that SEALang doesn't recognise an initial glottal s...

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 1:25 am Well, what reason do I have to start at Sukhothai if the source starts from Proto-Tai?

The Sukhothai inscriptions are real: Proto-Tai is inferred and disputed. But perhaps using Li’s recnstruction is as valid as using Brugmannian PIE for PIE.

I‘ve just read a plausible argument that the word for father had tone C, and that SW Tai switched to B to match mE B ‘mother’. (Sorry for the XSAMPA. I’ve been stuck in hospital for a week with an iPhone for communication , and couldn’t get automatic password recovery to work for me.)

But the suprasegmentals are the point of all this, though. If I start with Proto-Tai then I can simulate the splitting and merging of the old A/B/C/D tones to their modern Siamese values, plus there’s the changes to the vowel qualities underneath those. Sukhothai postdates those changes, to my (lim...

Real data is why I proposed starting with Sukhothai Thai, though solid suprasegmentals take a little longer tii hi o kick in. Unless Siamese-Chinese dictionaries can help.

Li’s.vowel reconstruction strikes me as less well-founded than his reconstruction of onsets. He himself complained of insufficient data. It also looks as though the change from sesquisyllabic to monosyllabic happened within the individual branches. Li’s correspondences may be sound, but the reconstr...

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 9:24 pm Liquids, sibilants, velars, laryngeals: all as mentioned by Richard, except also l̥ → l, r̥ → h (plus one instance of ŋ→h)

Resorting to XSAMPA, /l_0/ and /l/ merge and /w_0/ and /w/ merge late in, I think, all dialects.

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 9:24 pm Continuing on… dental clusters:
…

Velar clusters:

kl → kl

Probably not clusters. And one of them seems to depend on extra-Tai cognates.

Also, a uvular series is now recognised. Some of the evidence is presented in the chapter on velars.

Continuing to read… here’s the labial clusters (which are all I have time to transcribe right now): pr → t (but modern /pr/ got reintroduced from loanwords) pʰl, pʰr → pʰ ʔbl, ʔbr → d ml → m, l, mal (no conditioning factor reported, appears sporadic; already mentioned by Richard) vr → pʰr vl → tʰ (...

Reading through Li now. Starting with chapter 2, the tone changes, for Thai they are: A1 → 24 / after aspirated stops and voiceless continuants A1 → 33 / otherwise A2 → 33 He distinguishes the two A1’s as A1H and A1M. That’s why having 20 labels is generally more convenient if flitting from dialect...

c The Great Tai Consonant Shift What’s this? The.massive set of phonation shifts affecting initial occlusives. On the other hand,, having a look at your earlier table, it appears that the rhymes have undergone minimal change. Is that really correct? Apart from length, Thai seems to have the stables...

… but it shouldn’t be too hard to extract some sound changes from this. I can give you the onset changes: Unchangedː Symbol type Thai spelling Sukhothai Modern Remark letter ก k k letter ข kʰ kʰ letter ง ŋ ŋ letter จ t͜ɕ t͜ɕ letter ฉ t͜ɕʰ t͜ɕʰ A change to ɕ is reported to be in progress. letter ต t...

Thanks so much for endeavouring to put this together! I’m slightly surprised this isn’t described already… but it shouldn’t be too hard to extract some sound changes from this. I did give a reference to Li Fang-Kuei's A Handbook of Comparative Tai (1977), which for some reason seems to be out of pr...

Any response to this? I'll try populating a table piecemeal. Unfortunately, it will take a little while to verify the the word's existence in Sukhothai inscriptions, especially as I'm not firing on all four cylinders at the moment. For the transcriptions I've used the following system of phonetic v...

jal wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2024 3:08 pm

with a fair view from Pali,

I suppose you mean "few"?

Yes. 'few', not 'view'. Now corrected in the OP. 'Fair few' actually means 'close to many'.