Search found 182 matches

by Tropylium
Thu May 02, 2019 3:36 pm
Forum: Languages
Topic: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread's Sequel
Replies: 1043
Views: 1101936

Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread's Sequel

Anthony Yates recently argues that the reason *χ ≤ *h₂ was geminated but *s wasn't is that *s was unspecified for voice, while *χ contrasted with *ʁ ≤ *h₃. I suppose this could be taken to imply that there was an (allophonic) change *-s- > *-z- before the voice-to-gemination shift he defends. (new n...
by Tropylium
Thu May 02, 2019 3:22 pm
Forum: Conlangery
Topic: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Replies: 1333
Views: 841382

Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

In Estonian this only occurs for C+/r l/ clusters (and C+j clusters turn into /Ci/), but in Hungarian this occurs for most heterorganic consonant clusters. The so-called "syncope stems" hence also include plenty of level or falling-sonority consonant clusters, e.g. from *rm: három : hárm(...
by Tropylium
Wed May 01, 2019 10:06 am
Forum: Conlangery
Topic: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Replies: 1333
Views: 841382

Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

While we're discussing syncope: what could happen after V > Ø / _# in multisyllabic words? Oddly enough the Index Diachronica reports this change quite frequently, so it appears to be plausible, but I'm worried it could result in lots of weird consonant clusters at the end of words in cases like e....
by Tropylium
Wed May 01, 2019 9:18 am
Forum: Conlangery
Topic: Lortho: An Artistic Language
Replies: 10
Views: 5116

Re: Lortho: An Artistic Language

The personal possessive is formed using a prefix which is gender and number specific. 1SG 2SG 3SG 1PL 2PL 3PL Masculine ni- lin- li- nima- nani- limi- Feminine nu- lun- lu- numa- nanu- limu- Neuter la- lima- The 3PP ones are an interesting divergence from predictability; going by the apparent segme...
by Tropylium
Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:42 pm
Forum: Conlangery
Topic: Lortho: An Artistic Language
Replies: 10
Views: 5116

Re: Lortho: An Artistic Language

Looking quite lorthy ;) Vowels (Diphthongs) I'd probably put in here /e oɪ/ rather than /eɪ ɔɪ/. Consonant clusters are still somewhat a mystery, but so far this is what I have discovered: It would seem that you are additionally going to get a full scale of /nC/ clusters from the 2PS possessive suff...
by Tropylium
Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:06 pm
Forum: Conlangery
Topic: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Replies: 1333
Views: 841382

Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

While we're discussing syncope: what could happen after V > Ø / _# in multisyllabic words? Oddly enough the Index Diachronica reports this change quite frequently, so it appears to be plausible, but I'm worried it could result in lots of weird consonant clusters at the end of words in cases like e....
by Tropylium
Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:25 am
Forum: Languages
Topic: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Replies: 805
Views: 552934

Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

So besides "victual" and "indict" (and placenames like "Connecticut" and "Mackinac"), what other English words are there with silent <c>? Yacht . It's almost as though there is/was some weird second dialect of English, perhaps a low-prestige common-man form, ...
by Tropylium
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:41 am
Forum: Languages
Topic: Words perceived as opposites/antonyms that aren't.
Replies: 22
Views: 17367

Re: Words perceived as opposites/antonyms that aren't.

So these are complementary sets. In English we don't really have a natural-sounding common word for members of a complementary pair, other than "mate" perhaps. Conjugate. Ask a child what the opposite of "dog" is and they will likely answer "cat". Horse/cow, also. Perh...
by Tropylium
Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:51 pm
Forum: Languages
Topic: Shortest words for basic concepts
Replies: 67
Views: 55079

Re: Shortest words for basic concepts

Clearly an old loanword from Finnish pihi 'id.' ;)
by Tropylium
Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:16 pm
Forum: Conlangery
Topic: Sound Change Critique Thread
Replies: 61
Views: 50867

Re: Sound Change Critique Thread

æ e i ɯ > e i ɨ ɨ i > ɨ is unrealistic unconditionally. You should restrict this. Seems perfectly fine in this chain shift context to me. (If you wanted to, you could assume a few intermediate stages: e i > e ɪ > i ɪ > i ɨ.) ej > i / _# i > ɨ / j_ or _j æj ej > i ɨj /_# sounds strange to me This is...
by Tropylium
Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:42 am
Forum: Conlangery
Topic: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Replies: 1333
Views: 841382

Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

qʲ > cˠ > tˠ A bit unexpected, but good for "color". If I saw this as a correspondence in the wild, I'd assume something more breaking-like such as *qi > *qje > *qtʲe > *tˠʲe > tˠe though. e o > i u pʲ mʲ sʲ tʲ kʲ nʲ > p m s t k n This is the main "shit goes down" stage. Summing...
by Tropylium
Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:00 am
Forum: Conlangery
Topic: Click consonants?
Replies: 24
Views: 12891

Re: Click consonants?

There's also the suggestion that some clicks arose from consonant clusters - quoth Wikipedia: "For example, the Sandawe word for 'horn', /tɬana/, with a lateral affricate, may be a cognate with the root /ᵑǁaː/ found throughout the Khoe family, which has a lateral click. This and other words su...
by Tropylium
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:38 am
Forum: Conlangery
Topic: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Replies: 1333
Views: 841382

Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Somewhat close to lowering: Southern Khanty has chainshift blocking triggered by uvulars: by default *a *o *u > o u y, but aQ oQ uQ all remain put. (There's also a more direct lowering shift where *ɯQ > *ɤQ > eQ, versus *ɯ > i by default). (it may be interesting to note that the Proto-Khanty uvulars...
by Tropylium
Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:48 am
Forum: Languages
Topic: Shortest words for basic concepts
Replies: 67
Views: 55079

Re: Shortest words for basic concepts

C.f. oak, ash, elm, plane, yew... in fact, among native trees that aren't "-nut" or "-berry", I think monosyllables are the rule in English (though of course some monosyllables are longer than others). I guess holly and hornbeam are exceptions. Maple, aspen, rowan, willow, sallo...
by Tropylium
Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:21 am
Forum: Languages
Topic: The Great Macrofamily thread: Indo-Uralic, Altaic, Eurasiatic, Nostratic etc.
Replies: 263
Views: 167772

Re: The Great Macrofamily thread: Indo-Uralic, Altaic, Eurasiatic, Nostratic etc.

Regarding the "but they only share a few soundchanges so it could be coincidence!" line of attack, which can be applied against ANY suggested family relationship - what do you expect? When you're talking about very close dialects that had only very recently diverged from the parent, you w...
by Tropylium
Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:51 am
Forum: Languages
Topic: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread's Sequel
Replies: 1043
Views: 1101936

Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread's Sequel

It is unusual that Germanic shares this characteristic with those languages... but given that it lacks their other (more unusual) innovations (like shifting the palatovelars forward, merging labiovelars with velars (except in Albanian) and RUKI), it's more likely that this is areal influence from B...
by Tropylium
Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:25 am
Forum: Languages
Topic: The Great Macrofamily thread: Indo-Uralic, Altaic, Eurasiatic, Nostratic etc.
Replies: 263
Views: 167772

Re: The Great Macrofamily thread: Indo-Uralic, Altaic, Eurasiatic, Nostratic etc.

Irrecoverable from casual inspection, perhaps less so once we have some reliable reconstructions. I would think the merits of top-down versus bottom-up depends a lot on what we're doing. Reconstructing a family top-down is generally a good idea since, for language families that don't have an establi...
by Tropylium
Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:16 am
Forum: Languages
Topic: The Great Macrofamily thread: Indo-Uralic, Altaic, Eurasiatic, Nostratic etc.
Replies: 263
Views: 167772

Re: The Great Macrofamily thread: Indo-Uralic, Altaic, Eurasiatic, Nostratic etc.

People here might be interested to hear that Alexis Manaster Ramen has recently been uploading several backcatalog (mostly 90s) review/method papers on Nostratic and Altaic on academia.edu. I'd recommend as a starting point the following two: On Illich-Svitych's Nostratic Theory Glass Houses: Greenb...
by Tropylium
Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:48 pm
Forum: Conlangery
Topic: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Replies: 1333
Views: 841382

Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Even if they don't, they still seem to have slightly different diachronic behavior due to different values of ±obstruent: ɬ <> s, ɬ <> tɬ or ɬ > t are common, ditto l̥ > h or l̥ <> hl, but probably not most of the opposite options without an l̥ <> ɬ overpass first. In other words, if we need to keep...
by Tropylium
Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:23 pm
Forum: Languages
Topic: Paleo-European languages
Replies: 808
Views: 1019522

Re: Paleo-European languages

Ooh, that's an idea for a conlang: an otherwise modern language transplanted into the past and evolving alongside ancient languages and affecting them. I once considered the concept of a conlang with cyclic history, be it by time travel or weird cosmology; it would through convoluted paths end up a...