Zompist Bboard Again

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 7:55 pm Stieber 1973, A Historical Phonology of the Polish Language

Would you be able to post a full list of changes?

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 6:25 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Sat Sep 30, 2023 3:00 am - *ę ǫ become /ɛ̃ ɔ̃/ in Polish

In a sense, yes; in a sense, no. They merge as Middle Polish ø, then short and long ø become /ɛ̃ ɔ̃/.

Ah ok. That's weird.

Would you happen to have any good sources on Polish changes? There's definitely some good data out there but nothing afaict online.

I have absolutely no idea how you manage to transcribe this stuff so quickly. I’ll have my work cut out trying to keep up with the webpages! Just data entry really. Most of it's pretty easily extractable, especially for the Sogeram source. Awyu-Dumut languages Another TNG branch. Well, technically ...

Sogeram is a small branch of Madang which makes it likely TNG. There's little hope of fleshing out TNG, but if I can find any other good lower-level TNG reconstructions I'll chuck them in this thread; anyone else with relevant resources is welcome to do so too. I've used IPA for modern examples beca...

Thanks! Suprasegmentals: Tone: "A three- or four-way contrast in pitch is present on monosyllables in all languages—High (H), Low (L) and Fall (HL)— so it seems reasonable to posit at least these tonal contrasts in the protolanguage." However, Donohue does "not refer to the tones of l...

The source here is almost entirely consistent with IPA which makes it a lot easier to work with than the Russian source, but it also doesn't really discuss ordering (not that it matters for the majority of the changes). Consensus is good, although consensus regarding terminology is weird. "Skou...

* The Polish changes on the old ID are really good, but need reformatting. The references are both in Polish though; does anyone a) have these books and b) read polish? It would be nice to flesh out the Slavic section. IIRC, Pedant is Polish, though I’m not sure if they’re active here any more. May...

Like how the soft dentals "may have still been palatal at the early stage" in Old Russian; so *s' could variably be [ɕ] or [sʲ], whereas in other stages it's always just [sʲ]. Ah, interesting. I’ll need to think about the best way of handling this. An idea on this: maybe there’s an argume...

While going through Blust’s *t to k: An Austronesian Sound Change Revisited ( https://doi.org/10.1353/ol.2005.0001 ), I’m beginning to rethink my current approach of cross-referencing all shared changes. The main problem I’ve encountered is that there seem to be a lot of almost-shared changes, so t...

The problem is that Old Russian is attested, so using asterisks would technically be "wrong" In this context, I’ve been taking ‘attested’ to mean ‘its phonological value is attested’ — through an articulatory description, or through IPA, or through a spectrogram, and so on. I think this i...

Ooh, thanks very much for this! I don’t know enough about Slavic to properly review this, so for now I’ll merely mention a few notational quibbles: Neither do I unfortunately. I just have the book. I've elected to leave it in Slavicist notation rather than changing to IPA, as precise realisations o...

In the source these changes are varying presented in standard notation, or in text which I have notated as accurately as possible. I've elected to leave it in Slavicist notation rather than changing to IPA, as precise realisations of reconstructed phonemes are unknown. For nomenclature, Cubberley pr...

Fraid mine are just [æ æː] everywhere too.

I’ve considered this, but it has a few big problems. Such as: how should the sound changes be ordered? As a worst-case scenario, for instance, you could imagine a situation where two sources agree on two sound changes but put them in opposite orders. More common are situations where it’s simply unc...

Now that I think of it… while we’re having this conversation, I’ll take the opportunity to repost something I asked in the Japonic thread: I’d be interested to get your thoughts on how to treat multiple sources. So far I’ve been keeping sound changes from different sources entirely separate, on the...

These criteria are of course somewhat subjective, but that can’t really be avoided. They’re also per-source (rather than per-language or per-family or something else… except ‘consensus’ which is a bit iffy in that regard). I’ve divided them up in a rather fine-grained way, which leaves me unsure as...

Page has very kindly sent me a copy of the Fayu grammar, so I'll shortly be posting an updated comparative wordlist with a lot more Fayu terms. (She also hints that a Fayu-based PhD thesis may be appearing in the future) Great to hear! Could you send a copy to me too? (You should have my email alre...

Fayu vowel allophony is weird. There's five phonemes /i u o ɛ a/; and /i/ is in free variation with [y], [ʏ] /u/ is [y] word-initially, near /ɾ/ and near /i/ /o/ is in free variation with [e] word-finally after most consonants So is /ɛ/ /ɛ/ is also often [​i] when the following syllable has /i/ or /...

Page has very kindly sent me a copy of the Fayu grammar, so I'll shortly be posting an updated comparative wordlist with a lot more Fayu terms. (She also hints that a Fayu-based PhD thesis may be appearing in the future) This means that I now have at least one pretty good resource for all branches o...

Personally I'm not fussed by having "own work" as a source, which crops up in the old ID although I know you're not a fan of it. It depends on what the ID itself is intended for; if we want it as a relatively formal reference work, it won't make the cut, and I'm fine with that. Yes, I’d l...