Zompist Bboard Again

Getting back to the thread's topic, there're some cases of "intrusive r" in Basque between adjacent vowels, although they're restricted to dialectal or combinatory variants. Some examples: arate 'duck', dialectal variant of ahate < Latin anate- abara- 'beehive; honeycomb', combinatory vari...

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:00 ambut why? If you want to convince people of something, you can’t just state your opinion; you have to give reasons why your opinion is correct and theirs is wrong.

Of couse, but they just don't want to see the evidence.

Zju wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:58 amA single word is not an argument. As Rounin Ryuuji pointed out, it could as well be the case.

I'm afraid isn't the case.

Zju wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:07 pmAs for the latter, yes, some ancient Romance or Celtic vernacular could as well be the source of *ibai- family of words.

Nope.

So the unattested protoform *ibone [...] Still no evidence for an alleged **ib- protoform. Nothing of the kind. The prototype *ib-one (with a Romance diminutive suffix) is the source of Aragonese ibón and the Gascon forms with final nasal. of Gascon iu, èu only approaches the ibai family of words, ...

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:14 pmUnd nimmst du an, dass wir Französisch können?

Ich bin sicher, Sie können es verstehen.

Gascon iu, èu can be worn down forms of almost any word. No reason it couldn't be related to eau or something. You have the claim, where's the evidence? As regarding Gascon, I refer you to Gerhard Rolhfs' book Le Gascon. Études de Philologie Pyrénéenne Care to cite the relevant section for those of...

Not exactly. We don't know that ibón comes from Basque at all.[/quote]Of course, not directly from Basque but a related language. It could stem fron PIE *h₂ep-. OEH (Old European Hydronyms) roots can't belong to PIE. The thing is whether the original root was ib- or *ub- > u(h)- . Gascon iu, èu can...

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:53 pmBut they can develop, cf. PIE *wódr and *h₂ékʷeh₂, the latter of which may or may not, if I'm remembering right, have meant "river" originally.

That's right, but this isn't a PIE word but a femenine noun *akw-ā derivated from a variant of *Hōḱu 'fast'.

On the other hand, we don't know that ib- is even a morpheme on its own. There's only ibai 'river', ibi 'ford' and ibar 'valley' - not sure where Talskubilos got the meaning 'river valley' from. Not exactly. Basque ibar means both 'valley' and 'river valley', equivalent to Spanish vega , a word of ...

Another interesting topic are the so-called "combinatory variants", found as first member of compounds but also phonologically different from the original word (which nevertheless can be found in compounds), usually in the last consonant. For example, both begi 'eye' and behi 'cow'* have t...

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:02 amAnd finally, there is the very true saying that genes don't speak languages, so we may be barking up trees in entirely the wrong forest here

That's precisely why I don't like to build linguistic theories on genetic data.

I see. I had missed that. *gdonyo- of course has an impeccable IE etymology, but what about anderā ? My guess is it might be a bizarre development from *h 2 nēr- 'young man/male' (cfr. Greek ándros ), but I don't really know. Pokorny wrote an article about it, but unfortunately I haven't got access...

Do they have IE etymologies? Do they have cognates in Welsh, Breton or Irish? AFAIK, not! Quoted form Matasović's Etymological Dictionary of Proto-Celtic (EDPC): *gdonyo- 'human, person' [Noun] GOID: OIr. duine [io m]; doíni [p] W: MW dyn [m and f] BRET: OBret. don, den , MBret. den CO: OCo. den gl...

Fair - call it Proto-Basque, call it Paleo-Basque; what's in a name? They're different entitites. Proto-Basque is the putative ancestor of the historical Basque varieties, roughly dated to the 6th century AD, while Paleo-Basque would be an earlier stage more or less contemporaneous to the Roman con...

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:24 amAnd the substratum of Gascon is known - it is Aquitanian, i.e. a variety of Proto-Basque.

I'd say Paleo-Basque instead, a stage previous to the reconstucted Proto-Basque (PB). The thing is Aquitanian has no actual texts, so it's less known than Iberian.

And the funny thing is, Basque is closest to Kartvelian in alignment than it is to anything in ‘Vasco-Caucasian’. Indeed, neither Basque nor Georgian are ergative at all. (Linguists tend to get hopelessly excited whenever they see a non-accusative alignment, and call it ‘ergative’ irrespective of w...

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:50 pmUmm sorry but Catalan groups with Occitan, not with Hispano-Romance.

That's right, but as far as the results of N and L it usually follows Hispano-Romance.

IMHO, geminated (fortis) / N L R / look more like adaptations from Romance (i.e. Vasco-Romance) than genuine Proto-Basque phonemes. As a matter of fact, the liquids / l r / merged intervocally, thus leaving a contrasting pair / r ~ / L /. Similar fortis sonorants occur in Irish, so this may be an A...

I don't know. This is all stuff for the Paleo-European languages thread, where it has been pretty much discussed to death, and T. has pretty much lost there, so he opened a new thread as if such a move helped anything, which it doesn't. Not really. Here the focus is on Basque and its relationships....