Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

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bradrn
Posts: 5688
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:25 am

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Post by bradrn »

I have two challenges in this post! The first, and by far the trickiest, is actually not a conlang at all: it’s a natlang, Dongwang Tibetan. It also happens to have a phonemic inventory which is by far the hardest inventory I have ever tried to romanize; in fact, I actually gave up. The trickiest part for me was the combination of three open vowels+nasalisation+tone, but the presence of all of /sʰ/,/ʂ/,/ɕ/ is also pretty tricky. Anyway, without further ado, the phonology itself:

Consonants:
/pʰ p b ᵐb tʰ t d ⁿd kʰ k g ᵑg ʔ/
/sʰ s z ɮ ʂʰ ʂ ʐ ɕʰ ɕ ʑ h/
/t͡sʰ t͡s d͡z ⁿd͡z t͡ʂʰ t͡ʂ d͡ʐ ⁿd͡ʐ t͡ɕʰ t͡ɕ d͡ʑ ⁿd͡ʑ/
/m̥ m n̥ n ɲ̊ ɲ ŋ̊ ŋ/
/ɾ~r rʰ/
/w l ɦj j/
(Note: /ɦj/, described in the grammar I am using as a ‘voiced aspirated glide’, is described as being characterised by ‘onset aspiration and delay of full oral release’, with a co-articulation of [ɦ] and [j] ‘usually accompanied with breathiness that extends throughout the syllable’.)

Vowels:
/i ʏ ɯ u e o ə æ a ɑ/
/ĩ ũ õ æ̃ ã ɑ̃/
Every vowel seems to have a length contrast as well.
Diphthongs: /ui ua ue uæ əo ao/

Tone:
There are three phonemic tones, which described using tone numbers are:
  • Low: 13
  • Mid: 353
  • High: 53
  • In the sample sentences, there also seem to be many words (usually function words and clitics) which do not have a tone marked, but this is not explicitly mentioned in the phonology section. I think these can be safely assumed to be another tone.
Tones also tend to display sandhi in disyllabic words. The low tone tends to become 11 in the first syllable, the high tone tends to become 55 in the first syllable, and the mid tone tends to become 35 in the first syllable and 53 in the second syllable. This does mean that the mid tone and the high tone are the same in the second syllable, but the grammar I am using does not seem to indicate which tone is which, instead preferring to use the tone numbers for all representation of tone. For the purposes of making a romanization, to me the most sensible options seems to be to treat 53 as its own tone, but of course this is only my opinion.

Syllables: (C)V(V)(C)
The grammar is slightly unclear about this, but syllables which phonemically end with a vowel seem to phonetically end with a non-phonemic [h] or [x].

Sample text:
(I’ve indicated the clitics and affixes, as this is what the grammar does. I’ve also tried to guess where the intonation breaks are, but this may not be entirely correct.)
/tə¹¹ræ̃⁵⁵=ji ŋa⁵⁵tã⁵³ rə põ⁵³=nə=ji za³⁵³ se¹³ dʑiʔ … põ⁵⁵za⁵³ ‖ põ⁵⁵za⁵³ rə põ⁵³=nə de³⁵³ de-nə n̥õ ‖ tæ̃¹³ kʰə⁵⁵ rə ŋa⁵⁵tã⁵³ ɡue¹³ɕa⁵³ re ‖ ɡue¹³ɕa⁵³ zĩ tʰæ̃ ræ̃⁵⁵ | dzɯ¹³ tɕi=tsa=jæ ɲɯ¹³ a¹¹ɾĩ⁵⁵ tʂo¹¹mo⁵⁵ mæ¹³ ɦjõ³⁵³ ni/

And if anyone’s interested, here’s the translation:
An ancient story called 'the yak of the grassland'...'grassland yak' [='rabbit'].
The rabbit lived on the grassland. Then he was extremely clever. When [he] had been clever, [he] begged a shepherd for butter every day.
------------------------

The next language should be a bit easier. It’s actually a descendent of a language I previously posted here, but for this one, I can’t figure out an orthography for this one which I’m happy with.

Consonants:
/m n ŋ/
/p t k b d g/
/θ s ʃ ð z/
/w ɹ j l/

Vowels:
/i ɨ u/
/e ə o/
/a/
Every vowel has a length contrast.
Also /ae ai ao au aə aɨ ou uo/, but I’m not sure yet whether I want to make these diphthongs or vowel hiatuses.

Phonotactics: (C)(w,y)V(C), with consonant clusters required to agree in voicing, and nasal clusters required to agree in place of articulation

For a sample text, I’ll just run my previous sample text through the sound changes:
/uː nəsek jel yidnəkaeθ/
/jamaθeʃaɨθ uːjem ðjɨjem na jaθ segjem jen/
/nəkalaʃaɨθ/
/kaeʃ ma jaθ gu səŋɨθ/
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices

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Zju
Posts: 823
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:05 pm

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Post by Zju »

Consonants:
/m n ŋ/ <m n ŋ>
/p t k b d g/ <p t k b d g>
/θ s ʃ ð z/ <s̈ s š ż z>
/w ɹ j l/ <w r j l>

Vowels:
/i ɨ u/ <i y u>
/e ə o/ <e ạ o>
/a/ <a>

Uu nạsek jel jidnạkaes̈.
Jamas̈ešays̈ uujem żjyjem na jas̈ segjem jen.
Nạkalašays̈.
Kaeš ma jas̈ gu sạŋys̈.
/j/ <j>

Ɂaləɂahina asəkipaɂə ileku omkiroro salka.
Loɂ ɂerleku asəɂulŋusikraɂə seləɂahina əɂətlahɂun əiŋɂiɂŋa.
Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ.
Karch
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:09 am

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Post by Karch »

/pʰ p b ᵐb tʰ t d ⁿd kʰ k g ᵑg ʔ/ <ph p b mb th t d nd kh k g ngg '>
/sʰ s z ɮ ʂʰ ʂ ʐ ɕʰ ɕ ʑ h/ <sz s z lh szh sh zh xz x xy h>
/t͡sʰ t͡s d͡z ⁿd͡z t͡ʂʰ t͡ʂ d͡ʐ ⁿd͡ʐ t͡ɕʰ t͡ɕ d͡ʑ ⁿd͡ʑ/ <tsh ts dz ndz c.h ch j nj q qh dy ndy>
/m̥ m n̥ n ɲ̊ ɲ ŋ̊ ŋ/ <mh m nh n nyh ny ngh ng>
/ɾ~r rʰ/ <r rh>
/w l ɦj j/ <w l hy y>

Vowels:
/i ʏ ɯ u e o ə æ a ɑ/ <i ui iu u ei o e ae a ao>
/ĩ ũ õ æ̃ ã ɑ̃/ <in un on en an aon>
Every vowel seems to have a length contrast as well. <V:>
Diphthongs: /ui ua ue uæ əo ao/ <uy ua ue uae eo aw>

Tone:
There are three phonemic tones, which described using tone numbers are:
Low: 13 <af>
Mid: 353 <av>
High: 53 <az>

/tə¹¹ræ̃⁵⁵=ji ŋa⁵⁵tã⁵³ rə põ⁵³=nə=ji za³⁵³ se¹³ dʑiʔ … põ⁵⁵za⁵³ ‖ põ⁵⁵za⁵³ rə põ⁵³=nə de³⁵³ de-nə n̥õ ‖ tæ̃¹³ kʰə⁵⁵ rə ŋa⁵⁵tã⁵³ ɡue¹³ɕa⁵³ re ‖ ɡue¹³ɕa⁵³ zĩ tʰæ̃ ræ̃⁵⁵ | dzɯ¹³ tɕi=tsa=jæ ɲɯ¹³ a¹¹ɾĩ⁵⁵ tʂo¹¹mo⁵⁵ mæ¹³ ɦjõ³⁵³ ni/

Tefrenz ji ngaztanv re ponz ne yi zav seif dyi'... ponzzav. Ponzzav re ponz ne deif deine nhon. Taef khez re ngaztanv guefxav rei. Guefxav zin then renz, dziuf qi tsa yae nyiuf afrinz chofmoz maef hyonv ni.

or what if this dialect was first described in the 1910s:
Consonants:
/pʰ p b ᵐb tʰ t d ⁿd kʰ k g ᵑg ʔ/ <ph p b mb th t d nd kh k g ƞg '>
/sʰ s z ɮ ʂʰ ʂ ʐ ɕʰ ɕ ʑ h/ <sh s z ḻ ṣh ṣ ẓ śh ś ź h>
/t͡sʰ t͡s d͡z ⁿd͡z t͡ʂʰ t͡ʂ d͡ʐ ⁿd͡ʐ t͡ɕʰ t͡ɕ d͡ʑ ⁿd͡ʑ/ <tsh ts dz ndz tṣh tṣ dẓ ndẓ ch c j nj>
/m̥ m n̥ n ɲ̊ ɲ ŋ̊ ŋ/ <mh m nh n ñh ñ ƞh ƞ>
/ɾ~r rʰ/ <r rh>
/w l ɦj j/ <w l hy y>

Vowels:
/i ʏ ɯ u e o ə æ a ɑ/ <i ü î u e o ə ä a â>
/ĩ ũ õ æ̃ ã ɑ̃/ <iⁿ uⁿ oⁿ äⁿ aⁿ âⁿ>
Every vowel seems to have a length contrast as well. <V·>
Diphthongs: /ui ua ue uæ əo ao/ <ui ua ue uä əo ao>

Tone:
There are three phonemic tones, which described using tone numbers are:
Low: 13 <ʻa>
Mid: 353 <a>
High: 53 <aʻ>
Clitics are written with a hyphen between the clitic and the previous word.

/tə¹¹ræ̃⁵⁵=ji ŋa⁵⁵tã⁵³ rə põ⁵³=nə=ji za³⁵³ se¹³ dʑiʔ … põ⁵⁵za⁵³ ‖ põ⁵⁵za⁵³ rə põ⁵³=nə de³⁵³ de-nə n̥õ ‖ tæ̃¹³ kʰə⁵⁵ rə ŋa⁵⁵tã⁵³ ɡue¹³ɕa⁵³ re ‖ ɡue¹³ɕa⁵³ zĩ tʰæ̃ ræ̃⁵⁵ | dzɯ¹³ tɕi=tsa=jæ ɲɯ¹³ a¹¹ɾĩ⁵⁵ tʂo¹¹mo⁵⁵ mæ¹³ ɦjõ³⁵³ ni/

Tʻǝräⁿʻ-yi ƞaʻtaⁿ-rǝ po-nǝyi za sʻe-ji'... poⁿʻza. Poⁿʻza-rǝ poⁿʻ-nǝ de-denǝnhoⁿ. Tʻäⁿ khǝʻ-rǝ ƞaʻtaⁿ gʻueśa-re. Gʻueśa-ziⁿthäⁿ räⁿʻ, dzîʻ-ćitsayä ñʻî ʻariⁿʻ tṣʻomoʻ mäʻ hyoⁿ-ni.

----

Consonants:
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/p t k b d g/ <p t k b d g>
/θ s ʃ ð z/ <s c x z j>
/w ɹ j l/ <w r y l>

Vowels:
/i ɨ u/ <i ù u>
/e ə o/ <e à o>
/a/ <a>
Every vowel has a length contrast. <VV>

/uː nəsek jel yidnəkaeθ/
/jamaθeʃaɨθ uːjem ðjɨjem na jaθ segjem jen/
/nəkalaʃaɨθ/
/kaeʃ ma jaθ gu səŋɨθ/

Uu nàcek yel yidnàkaes. Yamasexaùs uuyem zyùyem na yas cegyem yen. Nàkalaxaùs. Kaex ma yas gu càngis.
Zpaf kkuñb ñvneahttiñ wqxirftvn meof ñfañhsit.
Kkuñb ñvzxirf kvtañb kkuñf ñtmeaq sfañkqeanth.
Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq.
User avatar
Tropylium
Posts: 182
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:53 am
Location: Halfway to Hyperborea

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Post by Tropylium »

bradrn wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:15 amDongwang Tibetan
Consonants:
/pʰ p b ᵐb tʰ t d ⁿd kʰ k g ᵑg ʔ/
/t͡sʰ t͡s d͡z ⁿd͡z t͡ʂʰ t͡ʂ d͡ʐ ⁿd͡ʐ t͡ɕʰ t͡ɕ d͡ʑ ⁿd͡ʑ/
/sʰ s z ɮ ʂʰ ʂ ʐ ɕʰ ɕ ʑ h/
/m̥ m n̥ n ɲ̊ ɲ ŋ̊ ŋ/
/ɾ~r rʰ w l ɦj j/
‹pp p b bb tt t d dd kk k g gg 7›
‹cc c z zz čč č ž žž ǩǩ ǩ ǧ ǧǧ›
‹ss s sz ll šš š šž xx x yy h›
‹hm m hn n hň ň hŋ ŋ›
‹r rr w l hy y›
Vowels:
/i ʏ ɯ u e o ə æ a ɑ/
/ĩ ũ õ æ̃ ã ɑ̃/
Every vowel seems to have a length contrast as well.
Diphthongs: /ui ua ue uæ əo ao/
‹i u iu ou e o eo ea a oa›
‹in un on ean an oan›
‹ui ua ue oe eu au›
Long vowels ‹ii uu iiu oou› etc.
Schwa clitics / particles appear to be often toneless, these are written ‹e›.
Tone:
There are three phonemic tones, which described using tone numbers are:
  • Low: 13
  • Mid: 353
  • High: 53
Low ‹où è ò› etc.
535 ‹eó eá á› etc.
55 ‹oā īn oūn› etc.
53 ‹ôn ân uî› etc.
Sample text:
/tə¹¹ræ̃⁵⁵=ji ŋa⁵⁵tã⁵³ rə põ⁵³=nə=ji za³⁵³ se¹³ dʑiʔ … põ⁵⁵za⁵³ ‖ põ⁵⁵za⁵³ rə põ⁵³=nə de³⁵³ de-nə n̥õ ‖ tæ̃¹³ kʰə⁵⁵ rə ŋa⁵⁵tã⁵³ ɡue¹³ɕa⁵³ re ‖ ɡue¹³ɕa⁵³ zĩ tʰæ̃ ræ̃⁵⁵ | dzɯ¹³ tɕi=tsa=jæ ɲɯ¹³ a¹¹ɾĩ⁵⁵ tʂo¹¹mo⁵⁵ mæ¹³ ɦjõ³⁵³ ni/
Teòreānyi ŋātâ re pônneyi szá sè ǧi7 … pōnszâ.
Pōnszâ re pōnne dé dene hnon. Teàn kkeō re ŋātâ guèxâ re. Guèxâ szin ttean reān, ziù ǩicayea ñiù àrīn čòmō meà hyón ni.
The next language should be a bit easier.
A Cyrillization:
‹м н ӈ п т к б д г с ш щ з ж в р й л›, in clusters /j/ = ‹ь›
‹и ы у э ө о а›, long vowels ‹ӣ ы̄› etc., iotized ‹ю е я› used

ӯ нөшэк ел йиднөкаэс, ямасэщаыс ӯем зьыем на яс сэгем ен, нөкалащаыс, каэщ ма яс гу сөӈыс
Birdlang
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Post by Birdlang »

Consonants:
/m n ŋ/ m n ñ
/p t k b d g/ p t k b d g
/θ s ʃ ð z/ c s š x z
/w ɹ j l/ w r j l

Vowels:
/i ɨ u/ i y u
/e ə o/ e æ o
/a/
Long vowels are written with a macron.
Also /ae ai ao au aə aɨ ou uo/


/uː nəsek jel yidnəkaeθ/ Ū næsek jel jidnækaex.
/jamaθeʃaɨθ uːjem ðjɨjem na jaθ segjem/ Jamacešayc ūjem xjyjem na jac segjem.
/nəkalaʃaɨθ/ Nækalašayc.
/kaeʃ ma jaθ gu səŋɨθ/ Kaeš ma jac gu
Dongzhang Tibetan
Consonants:
/pʰ p b ᵐb tʰ t d ⁿd kʰ k g ᵑg ʔ/ ph p b mb th t d nd kh k g ng q
/sʰ s z ɮ ʂʰ ʂ ʐ ɕʰ ɕ ʑ h/ sh s z ł šh š ž śh ś ź h
/t͡sʰ t͡s d͡z ⁿd͡z t͡ʂʰ t͡ʂ d͡ʐ ⁿd͡ʐ t͡ɕʰ t͡ɕ d͡ʑ ⁿd͡ʑ/ ch c j nj čh č ǰ nǰ ćh ć ð nð
/m̥ m n̥ n ɲ̊ ɲ ŋ̊ ŋ/ mh m nh n ñh ñ ŋh ŋ
/ɾ~r rʰ/ r rh
/w l ɦj j/ w l yh y
(Note: /ɦj/, described in the grammar I am using as a ‘voiced aspirated glide’, is described as being characterised by ‘onset aspiration and delay of full oral release’, with a co-articulation of [ɦ] and [j] ‘usually accompanied with breathiness that extends throughout the syllable’.)

Vowels:
/i ʏ ɯ u e o ə æ a ɑ/ i ü ï u e o ë ä a å
/ĩ ũ õ æ̃ ã ɑ̃/ į ų ǫ ę ą ą̊
Every vowel seems to have a length contrast as well. Marked with the macron.
Diphthongs: /ui ua ue uæ əo ao/

Tone:
There are three phonemic tones, which described using tone numbers are:
Low: 13
Mid: 353
High: 53
Marked with à, a, á
Can’t do the sample text because my keyboard has a hard time with 4-5 diacritics sometimes.
bradrn
Posts: 5688
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:25 am

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Post by bradrn »

After looking through everyone’s responses, I think I’ve settled on a romanization I’m happy with:

Consonants:
/m n ŋ/ ⟨m n ŋ⟩
/p t k b d g/ ⟨p t k b d g⟩
/θ s ʃ ð z/ ⟨th s š dh z⟩
/w ɹ j l/ ⟨w r y l⟩

Vowels:
/i ɨ u e ə o a/ ⟨i ı u e ə o a⟩
/iː ɨː uː eː əː oː aː/ ⟨ị̄ ī ū ē ə̄ ō ā⟩
(Note: The letter for /iː/ should be ⟨ī⟩ with a dot under. However some fonts do not display this correctly.)

Sample texts:
/uː nəsek jel yidnəkaeθ/
⟨Ū nəsek yel yidnəkaeth⟩

/jamaθeʃaɨθ uːjem ðjɨjem na jaθ segjem jen/
⟨Yamathešaıth ūyem dhyıyem na yath segyem yen⟩

/nəkalaʃaɨθ/
⟨Nəkalašaıth⟩

/kaeʃ ma jaθ gu səŋɨθ/
⟨Kaeš ma yath gu səŋıth⟩
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices

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Karch
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:09 am

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Post by Karch »

Eastern Bru

Initials:
/p t ʨ k/
/pʰ tʰ kʰ/
/b d/
/m n ɲ ŋ/
/r/
/s h/
/w l j/

Finals:
/p t k ʔ m n ŋ r h w l j wʔ jʔ/

Vowels:
/i i: i̤: ɨ ɨ: ɨ̤: u u: ṳ:/
/e e: e̤: ə ə: ə̤: o o: o̤:/
/ɛ ɛ: ɜ ɜ̤: ɔ ɔ: ɔ̤:/
/a a: a̤: ɒ ɒ: ɒ̤:/

Only /ə/ and /u/ can occur in presyllables as well.

Diphthongs:
/iə i̤ə ɨə ɨ̤ə uə ṳə/
/ia i̤a ua ṳa/

Syllabic nasals /m̩ n̩ ŋ̩/ can also occur in presyllables.

/dɜw lɨʔ ji̤aŋ sursi: tɛ:ŋ palɒ̤ːŋ kəp kute:ʔ tɜŋ pɨ̤:n mənlo̤:k nɜj. ma: kute:ʔ nɜj tə: kə:t rɜ̤:p ri̤aŋ n̩trəw juah, kəp tə: wa: bɨ:n rəmɨh n̩trəw juah tɜŋ kute:ʔ nɜj. bɨ:n ʔoŋ də:ʔ sɜŋ. ʔɒk kənam kluəm ɲɛ:ʔ tɜŋ klɔ̤ːŋ də:ʔ. kəp rəwi̤əj ji̤aŋ sursi: ʔə:t dəŋ di: ri̤a pə:ŋ də:ʔ. jia̤ŋ sursi: pa:j nɛ:ʔ "kɔʔ bɨ:n pa̤:ŋ!" lɨʔ kə:t pa̤:ŋ tɜ̤:p. ji̤aŋ sursi: hɨ:m pa̤:ŋ nɜj ʔɔ: lɨʔ, kəp ʔan kəja̤:h ciʔ pa̤:ŋ kəp kənam./
[...]
/kəp ji̤aŋ sursi: ʔamɨh n̩ toʔ kʰo: ki̤: la: kute:ʔ. n̩toʔ də:ʔ pəro:m ʔan ʔamɨh də:ʔ mɨ̤:t. kəp ji̤aŋ sursi: hɨ:m rənaʔ ki̤: la: ʔɔ: lɨʔ./

Note: /ji̤aŋ sursi:/ means "God" and should be capitalized, seeing as the text is an excerpt from the Bible.
Last edited by Karch on Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Zpaf kkuñb ñvneahttiñ wqxirftvn meof ñfañhsit.
Kkuñb ñvzxirf kvtañb kkuñf ñtmeaq sfañkqeanth.
Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq.
User avatar
Xwtek
Posts: 720
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:35 am

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Post by Xwtek »

Karch wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:09 am /pʰ tʰ kʰ/
I didn't see any aspirated consonant in the example text.
IPA of my name: [xʷtɛ̀k]

Favourite morphology: Polysynthetic, Ablaut
Favourite character archetype: Shounen hero
Nortaneous
Posts: 1533
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:29 am

Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Post by Nortaneous »

/p t ʨ k/ <p t j k>
/pʰ tʰ kʰ/ <ph th kh>
/b d/ <b d>
/m n ɲ ŋ/ <m n ñ ng>
/r/ <r>
/s h/ <s h>
/w l j/ <u l i>

Finals:
/p t k ʔ m n ŋ r h w l j wʔ jʔ/ <p t k x m n ng r xh w l y ux ix>

Vowels:
/i i: i̤: ɨ ɨ: ɨ̤: u u: ṳ:/ <i î ih w ŵ wh u û uh>
/e e: e̤: ə ə: ə̤: o o: o̤:/ <e ê eh y ŷ yh o ô oh>
/ɛ ɛ: ɜ ɜ̤: ɔ ɔ: ɔ̤:/ <ae âe ay ayh au âu auh>
/a a: a̤: ɒ ɒ: ɒ̤:/ <a â ah ao âo aoh>

Only /ə/ and /u/ can occur in presyllables as well. <y u>

Diphthongs:
/iə i̤ə ɨə ɨ̤ə uə ṳə/ <ia iah wa wah ua uah>
/ia i̤a ua ṳa/ <ea eah oa oah>

Syllabic nasals /m̩ n̩ ŋ̩/ can also occur in presyllables. <ym yn yng>

/dɜw lɨʔ ji̤aŋ sursi: tɛ:ŋ palɒ̤ːŋ kəp kute:ʔ tɜŋ pɨ̤:n mənlo̤:k nɜj. ma: kute:ʔ nɜj tə: kə:t rɜ̤:p ri̤aŋ n̩trəw juah, kəp tə: wa: bɨ:n rəmɨh n̩trəw juah tɜŋ kute:ʔ nɜj. bɨ:n ʔoŋ də:ʔ sɜŋ. ʔɒk kənam kluəm ɲɛ:ʔ tɜŋ klɔ̤ːŋ də:ʔ. kəp rəwi̤əj ji̤aŋ sursi: ʔə:t dəŋ di: ri̤a pə:ŋ də:ʔ. jia̤ŋ sursi: pa:j nɛ:ʔ "kɔʔ bɨ:n pa̤:ŋ!" lɨʔ kə:t pa̤:ŋ tɜ̤:p. ji̤aŋ sursi: hɨ:m pa̤:ŋ nɜj ʔɔ: lɨʔ, kəp ʔan kəja̤:h ciʔ pa̤:ŋ kəp kənam./
[...]
/kəp ji̤aŋ sursi: ʔamɨh n̩ toʔ kʰo: ki̤: la: kute:ʔ. n̩toʔ də:ʔ pəro:m ʔan ʔamɨh də:ʔ mɨ̤:t. kəp ji̤aŋ sursi: hɨ:m rənaʔ ki̤: la: ʔɔ: lɨʔ./

Dayu lwx Ieangh Sursî tâeng palâongh kyp kutêx tayng pŵnh mynlôhk nayi. Mâ kutêx nayi tŷ kŷt râyhp reangh yntryu ioaxh, kyp tŷ uâ bŵn rymwxh yntryw ioaxh tayng kutêx nayi. Bŵn xong dŷx sayng. Xaok kynam kloam ñâex tayng klâungh dŷx. Kyp ryueaih Ieangh Sursî xŷt dyng dî reah pŷng dŷx. Ieangh Sursî pâi nâex, "Kaux bŵn pângh!" Lwx kŷt pângh tâyhp. Ieangh Sursî hŵm pângh nayi xâu lwx, kyp xan kyïâh jix pângh kyp kynam.\
Duaj teibohnggoe kyoe' quaqtoeq lucj lhaj k'yoejdej noeyn tucj.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
Karch
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Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Post by Karch »

Initials:
/p t ʨ k/ <p t j k>
/pʰ tʰ kʰ/ <ph th kh>
/b d/ <b d>
/m n ɲ ŋ/ <m n ny ng>
/r/ <r>
/s h/ <s h>
/w l j/ <w l y>

Finals:
/p t k ʔ m n ŋ r h w l j wʔ jʔ/ <p t k ' m n ng r h w l y w' y'>

Vowels:
/i i: i̤: ɨ ɨ: ɨ̤: u u: ṳ:/ <i ii i'i î îî î'î u uu u'u>
/e e: e̤: ə ə: ə̤: o o: o̤:/ <e ee e'e ê êê ê'ê o oo o'o>
/ɛ ɛ: ɜ ɜ̤: ɔ ɔ: ɔ̤:/ <ë ëë â ââ ö öö ö'ö>
/a a: a̤: ɒ ɒ: ɒ̤:/ <a aa a'a ô ôô ô'ô>

Only /ə/ and /u/ can occur in presyllables as well. <a u>

Diphthongs:
/iə i̤ə ɨə ɨ̤ə uə ṳə/ <ie i'e îê î'ê uo u'o>
/ia i̤a ua ṳa/ <ia i'a ua u'a>

Syllabic nasals /m̩ n̩ ŋ̩/ <m n ng> can also occur in presyllables.

/dɜw lɨʔ ji̤aŋ sursi: tɛ:ŋ palɒ̤ːŋ kəp kute:ʔ tɜŋ pɨ̤:n mənlo̤:k nɜj. ma: kute:ʔ nɜj tə: kə:t rɜ̤:p ri̤aŋ n̩trəw juah, kəp tə: wa: bɨ:n rəmɨh n̩trəw juah tɜŋ kute:ʔ nɜj. bɨ:n ʔoŋ də:ʔ sɜŋ. ʔɒk kənam kluəm ɲɛ:ʔ tɜŋ klɔ̤ːŋ də:ʔ. kəp rəwi̤əj ji̤aŋ sursi: ʔə:t dəŋ di: ri̤a pə:ŋ də:ʔ. jia̤ŋ sursi: pa:j nɛ:ʔ "kɔʔ bɨ:n pa̤:ŋ!" lɨʔ kə:t pa̤:ŋ tɜ̤:p. ji̤aŋ sursi: hɨ:m pa̤:ŋ nɜj ʔɔ: lɨʔ, kəp ʔan kəja̤:h ciʔ pa̤:ŋ kəp kənam./

Dâw lî' Yi'ang Sursii tëëng palôông kêp kutee' tâng pî'în manlôôk nây. Maa kutee' nây têê kêêt râ'âp ri'ang ntrêw yuah, kêp têê waa bîîn ramîh ntrêw yuah tâng kutee' nây. Bîîn 'ong dêê' sâng. 'Ôk kanam kluom nyëë' tâng klö'öng dêê'. Kêp rawi'ey Yi'ang Sursii 'êêt dêng dii ri'a pêêng dêê'. Yiang Sursii paay nëë': "Kö' bîîn pa'ang!" Lî' kêêt pa'ang tâ'âp. Yi'ang Sursii hîîm pa'ang nây 'öö lî', kêp 'an kaya'ah ci' pa'ang kêp kanam.
Zpaf kkuñb ñvneahttiñ wqxirftvn meof ñfañhsit.
Kkuñb ñvzxirf kvtañb kkuñf ñtmeaq sfañkqeanth.
Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq.
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dɮ the phoneme
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Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Post by dɮ the phoneme »

From an actual conlang of mine (with working title "west island liturgical"), instead of just a phonological sketch. I really can't figure out a good way to romanize it though.

/p t tʲ tˤ tɬ tʃ k q ʔ/
/f s sʲ sˤ ɬ x ħ/
/ɹ ɹʲ~j l ɣ ʕ ɦ/
/m n nʲ nˤ/
/i iː ɨ uː/
/ɪɛ o ʊɔ/
/a aː/
/ɨ˞ ɨ˞ː a˞ a˞ː/

Tone contrast of low(-rising)/mid/high on stressed syllables, which can occur anywhere in a word. Syllable structure is (C)V(C)(C), and all possible clusters occur, with the exceptions that 1) clusters involving two dorsals get an epenthetic [ə], and 2) there is backwards assimilation of palatalization/pharyngealization among coronals. /ʕ/ is the pharyngeal counterpart to /ɹ/. Rhotic vowels only occur before consonants or word boundaries, never before other vowels; there's English style breaking of rhotic vowels word-finally before a vowel-initial word, with ɨ˞ a˞ ɨ˞ː a˞ː > ɨɹ aɹ uːɹ aːɹ /_#V.

/ɣʊɔ́ts aʔmaó ɨtɬɨ̄mo sˤāsn āʔɨm kɪɛnʲtʲāːn fàjt tʃʊɔ̀mtɨ˞ː qɨqɪɛ́tm tɬòntɬonˤsˤ ɣō páo sá˞t ʔāmuː/
Ye knowe eek that, in forme of speche is chaunge
With-inne a thousand yeer, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem; and yet they spake hem so,
And spedde as wel in love as men now do.

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bradrn
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Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Post by bradrn »

Max1461 wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:30 am /ɹ ɹʲ~j l ɣ ʕ ɦ/
Any particular reason why /ɣ/ is listed with the approximants?

(Also, this is a really interesting challenge! I’m struggling to think of a good solution, although I’m sure I’ll figure it out eventually…)

EDIT: Also, another question: will the main allophone of /ɹʲ~j/ be /ɹʲ/ or /j/?

EDIT2: Third question: In the sample text, is there a difference between /á/ and /ā/?
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bradrn
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Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Post by bradrn »

I had a few problems, but I actually just managed to find a really elegant romanization for West Island Liturgical:

/p t tʲ tˤ tɬ tʃ k q ʔ/ ⟨p t tï tä tj c k q ʼ⟩
/f s sʲ sˤ ɬ x ħ/ ⟨f s sï sä j x hä⟩
/ɹ ɹʲ~j l ɣ ʕ ɦ/ ⟨r rï~y l g rä h⟩
/m n nʲ nˤ/ ⟨m n nï nä⟩
/i iː ɨ uː/ ⟨i ii u uu⟩
/ɪɛ o ʊɔ/ ⟨e o uo⟩
/a aː/ ⟨a aa⟩
/ɨ˞ ɨ˞ː a˞ a˞ː/ ⟨ur̈ uur̈ ar̈ aar̈⟩

Tones: High tone is ⟨á⟩, mid tone is ⟨ā⟩, low tone is ⟨à⟩, toneless syllables are unmarked. For digraphs the tone marker goes on the second letter. For rhotics the tone marker goes on the last vowel, so ⟨úr̈ uúr̈ ár̈ aár̈⟩.

Clusters: Epenthetic [ə] is not shown, backwards assimilation of secondary articulation is not shown either (-ï or -ü goes after the last palatalization/pharyngealization consonant in the cluster).

Rhotic vowels: Rhotic vowel breaking is not shown explicitly, but hopefully the structure of the orthography should suggest that this happens.

Remarks:
  • I’ve used ⟨-ï⟩ and ⟨-ä⟩ for palatalisation and pharyngealisation respectively; this is inspired by Seri orthography, which does a similar thing for labialisation. I’m a bit less happy about ⟨-r̈⟩ for rhotic vowels, since many fonts (including those on this forum!) can’t display it properly, but have opted to keep it for consistency. (Replace it with ⟨ṙ⟩ or ⟨ř⟩ or ⟨ŕ⟩ if you like.)
  • As of the time of writing I don’t have a response on the primary allophone of /ɹʲ~j/ I now have a response on the primary allophone of /ɹʲ~j/, and it looks like neither is primary; in the sample text I’ve opted to use ⟨rï⟩ for [ɹʲ] (although that doesn’t actually occur in the sample) and ⟨y⟩ for [j], but in actual use it may be better to choose one single representation and stick to it.
Sample text:
/ɣʊɔ́ts aʔmaó ɨtɬɨ̄mo sˤāsn āʔɨm kɪɛnʲtʲāːn fàjt tʃʊɔ̀mtɨ˞ː qɨqɪɛ́tm tɬòntɬonˤsˤ ɣō páo sá˞t ʔāmuː/
⟨guóts aʼmaó utjīmo säāsn āʼum kentïaān fàyt cuòmtuur̈ quqétm tjòntjonsä gō páo sár̈t ʼāmuu⟩
Last edited by bradrn on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Post by dɮ the phoneme »

bradrn wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:51 am
Max1461 wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:30 am /ɹ ɹʲ~j l ɣ ʕ ɦ/
Any particular reason why /ɣ/ is listed with the approximants?
(Morpho)phonologically it behaves like one, and is historically derived from one. It's phonologically basically /ɰ/.
bradrn wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:51 am EDIT: Also, another question: will the main allophone of /ɹʲ~j/ be /ɹʲ/ or /j/?
I'm not quite sure yet, it probably depends a lot on register (formal, careful speech will maintain earlier [ɹʲ], less formal or less careful speech will have ɹʲ > j in most cases, especially syllable-finally). Or something like that!
bradrn wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:51 am EDIT2: Third question: In the sample text, is there a difference between /á/ and /ā/?
The former is high tone, the latter is mid tone. /à/ is low tone.
Ye knowe eek that, in forme of speche is chaunge
With-inne a thousand yeer, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem; and yet they spake hem so,
And spedde as wel in love as men now do.

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bradrn
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Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Post by bradrn »

Max1461 wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:30 am
bradrn wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:51 am EDIT2: Third question: In the sample text, is there a difference between /á/ and /ā/?
The former is high tone, the latter is mid tone. /à/ is low tone.
Ah, right. I forgot that only one syllable per word has tone, and got confused by all the vowels without a tone marked. I’ll edit my romanisation then!

EDIT: I actually have yet another question now: how does a toneless syllable differ from a toneful syllable with mid tone?
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Nortaneous
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Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Post by Nortaneous »

/p t tʲ tˤ tɬ tʃ k q ʔ/ <p t tj th d z k kh x>
/f s sʲ sˤ ɬ x ħ/ <f s sj sh lh g gh>
/ɹ ɹʲ~j l ɣ ʕ ɦ/ <r rj l v rh h>
/m n nʲ nˤ/ <m n nj nh>
/i iː ɨ uː/ <i ie u ou>
/ɪɛ o ʊɔ/ <e o au>
/a aː/ <a aa>
/ɨ˞ ɨ˞ː a˞ a˞ː/ <ir ier ar aar>

/ɣʊɔ́ts aʔmaó ɨtɬɨ̄mo sˤāsn āʔɨm kɪɛnʲtʲāːn fàjt tʃʊɔ̀mtɨ˞ː qɨqɪɛ́tm tɬòntɬonˤsˤ ɣō páo sá˞t ʔāmuː/
Váuts axmaó idîmo shâsn âxum kentjâan fàrjt zàumtier khukhétm dòndonsh vô páo sát xâmou.
Duaj teibohnggoe kyoe' quaqtoeq lucj lhaj k'yoejdej noeyn tucj.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
akam chinjir
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Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Post by akam chinjir »

bradrn wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:34 am EDIT: I actually have yet another question now: how does a toneless syllable differ from a toneful syllable with mid tone?
I can't speak for the particular language, but in general, a syllable with a mid-tone will have a particular pitch target, where's one with no tone will get whatever pitch 'fits' with the tones of adjacent syllables and whatever else might be going on pitch-wise; like, in a LML sequence, the mid-tone will be higher than the adjacent lows, but in L0L, the toneless syllable will probably have quite a low pitch.
Nortaneous
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Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Post by Nortaneous »

/p b ⁿb t d ⁿd tɕ dʑ ⁿdʑ k g ⁿg ʔ/ <p b mb t d nd ch j nj k g ŋg q>
/f θ s ɕ h/ <f th s sh h>
/w ð j ɣ/ <w x y c>
/m n ɲ ŋ/ <m n ñ ŋ>
/l ɻ/ <l r>
/ʈ ɖ ⁿɖ ʂ ʐ ɳ ɭ/ <tr dr ndr shr zhr nr lür>
/pf bv ⁿbv tʙ dʙ ⁿdʙ ɱv/ <pf bv mbv tv dv ndv mv>
/ts dz ⁿdz z/ <ts dz ndz z>
/ɚ/ <rü>

/a e ɤ o i u ɿ ʅ v̩/ <a e u o i ou zu zur vu>
/a22 a33 a55 a24/ <à ā á â>

/zɤkomeθal55 jelkrɤɲ55 eʐɤ55 pɻam55=ðɤ ɲiɕ24 ðɤ33 tsɿmɣɤn24=jecol24=ma24 || θju33 ʔeɲiɕ24 limɣan24=gjoⁿdɤmɤⁿdi24=ma24 ɟaɻ24=ðɤ || pfɤ33 dwat22 ɚʂɤ24 ɣɭ̩55 e55 dɣen55=ðɤ/
Zukomethal yelkruñ ezhru prámxu ñîsh xū tsumcûnyechôlmâ. Thyū qeñîsh limcângyondumundîmâ jârxu. Pfū dwàt rushrû clûr e dcénxu.
Duaj teibohnggoe kyoe' quaqtoeq lucj lhaj k'yoejdej noeyn tucj.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
bradrn
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Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Post by bradrn »

Consonants:
/m n nʲ ŋ ŋʷ/
/p t tʲ k kʷ/
/b d dʲ g gʷ/
/f s sʲ x~χ h/
/l j w jˀ wˀ/
/r ɾ/

Note that /jˀ wˀ/ are meant to be creaky-voiced approximants /j̰ w̰/, and /x~χ/ is supposed to display as /x~χ/. As usual, the forum font acts up when I try to write those properly.

Allophony:
  • /sʲ/ is normally pronounced as [ʃ]. /tʲ dʲ/ are often pronounced as [t͡ʃ d͡ʒ], especially before /i/.
  • /x~χ/ are in free variation, though /χ/ is more common.
  • If the creaky approximants immediately follow a vowel, that vowel becomes creaky as well.
Vowels:
Superficially, 20 vowels and 12 diphthongs appear in minimal pairs (e.g. [ɾɔ ɾo ɾoː ɾo̰ː]). These can be divided into four categories based on their length and phonation:

Short: [ɐ ɛ ɪ ɔ ʊ æ͡ə ɔ͡ɵ ɔ͡ʊ]
Mid: [a e i o u a͡e o͡e o͡u]
Long: [aː eː iː oː uː a͡e o͡e o͡u]
Creaky: [a̰ː ḛː ḭː o̰ː ṵː a̰ḛ͡ o̰ḛ͡ o̰ṵ͡]

(To give some idea of relative lengths: A closed syllable with a short vowel is approximately the same length as an open syllable with a mid vowel. Long and creaky vowels are both about twice the length of a mid vowel. Diphthongs and vowels within a group are about the same length as each other.)

However, there is evidence to suggest that at the phonemic level, there are many fewer vowels:
  • The consonants /j w jˀ wˀ r ɾ h/ appear only in the onset of a syllable, and are the only consonants which have this restriction.
  • If a word ends with a non-mid vowel, and another vowel is added to the end of that word (e.g. as a suffix), the first vowel will change to the corresponding mid vowel and one of /j w jˀ wˀ r ɾ h/ is inserted between the two vowels.
  • All closed syllables contain a short vowel. If a closed syllable is changed to an open syllable (e.g. by adding a vowel, so the CVC syllable becomes CVCV), the short vowel changes to a mid vowel.
Based on this evidence, it can be postulated that all vowels are underlyingly mid (i.e. the underlying vowels are /a e i o u a͡e o͡e o͡u/), and:
  • Vowels become short when when in a closed syllable. Additionally, /h/ is deleted at the end of a syllable when not before a vowel (so e.g. /ɾoh/ → [ɾɔ], /ɾohte/ → [ɾɔte], but /ɾohe/ → [ɾohe]), creating some short vowels in open syllables.
  • If a syllable ends with one of /j w r ɾ/, and is not followed by a vowel, then the coda is deleted and the vowel becomes long.
  • If a syllable ends with one of /jˀ wˀ/, and is not followed by a vowel, then the coda is deleted and the vowel becomes creaky.
For instance:
/ɾo ɾoh ɾoj ɾojˀ ɾoe ɾohe ɾoje ɾojˀe ɾote ɾohte ɾojte ɾojˀte/
[ɾo ɾɔ ɾoː ɾo̰ː ɾoe ɾohe ɾoje ɾo̰ʔʲe ɾote ɾɔte ɾoːte ɾo̰ːte]


Phonotactics: Syllables are (C)V(C). There are no restrictions on consonant clusters. Two vowel may be placed together in hiatus, and such an occurrence is distinguished from diphthongs (e.g. /meo/ is two syllables, while /me͡o/ is one syllable).

Sample text:
This is still a phonology sketch, but I managed to get zompist’s gen to give me some nice samples. Due to all the vowel allophony I’ll give each sample in both a phonemic and a phonetic transcription:

/kiko͡ujˀ kutʲok ka͡emko no lawˀ wokej kohko oslujˀ tʲak lolika͡ewˀ/
[kiko̰ṵ͡ː kutʲɔk kæ͡əmko no la̰ː wokeː kɔko ɔslṵː tʲɐk lolika̰ḛ͡ː]

/χasnewˀ kasʲuki meojwe wekolim jojˀkʷek lanʲejok mo͡ewˀne tʲoke a͡ek/
[χɐsnḛː kaʃuki meoːwe wekolɪm jo̰ːkʷɛk lanʲejɔk mo̰ḛ͡ːne tʲoke æ͡ək]
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Karch
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Re: Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

Post by Karch »

/m n nʲ ŋ ŋʷ/ <m n ń n̄ n̄w>
/p t tʲ k kʷ/ <p t j k kw>
/b d dʲ g gʷ/ <b d dj g gw>
/f s sʲ x~χ h/ <f s ś x h>
/l j w jˀ wˀ/ <l y w y' w'>
/r ɾ/ <r̄ r>

Short: [ɐ ɛ ɪ ɔ ʊ æ͡ə ɔ͡ɵ ɔ͡ʊ] <ah eh ih oh uh aeh oeh ouh> (when in an open syllable), otherwise written the same as mid vowels
Mid: [a e i o u a͡e o͡e o͡u] <a e i o u ae oe ou>
Long: [aː eː iː oː uː a͡e o͡e o͡u] <aa ee ii oo uu aae ooe oou>
Creaky: [a̰ː ḛː ḭː o̰ː ṵː a̰ḛ͡ o̰ḛ͡ o̰ṵ͡] <aa' ee' ii' oo' uu' ae' oe' ou'>
/a.e o.e o.u/ <a-e o-e o-u>

[kiko̰ṵ͡ː kutʲɔk kæ͡əmko no la̰ː wokeː kɔko ɔslṵː tʲɐk lolika̰ḛ͡ː]
[χɐsnḛː kaʃuki meoːwe wekolɪm jo̰ːkʷɛk lanʲejɔk mo̰ḛ͡ːne tʲoke æ͡ək]
Kikou' kujok kaemko no laa' wokee kohko osluu' jak lolikae'. Xasnee' kaśuki meeowe wekolim yoo'kwek lańeyok moe'ne joke aek.
Zpaf kkuñb ñvneahttiñ wqxirftvn meof ñfañhsit.
Kkuñb ñvzxirf kvtañb kkuñf ñtmeaq sfañkqeanth.
Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq. Yvnmuq.
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