If natlangs were conlangs

Natural languages and linguistics
Kuchigakatai
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Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Kuchigakatai »

Some posts I never responded to.
Neon Fox wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:58 amI'm no huge fan of irregular verbs being all over the place--I'm looking at you, French--but it seems like there ought to be more than two. Scattering a few irregular forms through a handful of other verbs just...doesn't seem realistic.
Standard Arabic has a pretty complex system of verbal conjugation (see some of it here), but it arguably only has two irregular verbs: raʔa: 'to see' and laysa 'to not be (negative copula)'. And laysa is only irregular on account of its weird unique stem (verbs with /j/-medial roots like /l-j-s/ generally have /a:/ in this case: *laasa).





From a conversation started by Xwtek/Akangka:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=256&p=12273#p10939
Zju wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:45 pmAre there any more examples of ancient wanderwörter?
There is a word for "banana" that apparently spread off Trans-New-Guinea into Austronesian, then Dravidian, Indo-Aryan and perhaps (some non-Chinese parts of) Sino-Tibetan, then Semitic and then onto Renaissance and early modern Romance and Germanic. I'm talking about "muse".

Here is a paper Nortaneus posted a while ago about it:
https://www.academia.edu/25619010/Thing ... into_Latin
(Note that the article is mistitled because this is not a classical word in Latin; it doesn't appear until the 14th century.)



In the rest of this post, I'll post some quotes that I found amusing while trying to learn more about this.



One of the earliest attestations of "musa" in Latin is in the early 14th-century Irish friar Symon Semeonis' Itinerarium Symonis Semeonis ab Hybernia ad Terram Sanctam ("Symon Semeonis' Journey from Ireland to the Holy Land"). The fruit was known to people at the time, often as the pomum paradisi "the fruit of Paradise". You can get a good sense of how strange and wonderful the fruit was for people at the time...
  • Sciendum quod poma paradisi, judicio meo salvo meliori, inter omnia pomorum genera primatum optinent sua incomparabili bonitate. Sunt enim oblonga et glauci coloris quando sunt matura, in aspectu pulcherrima, in odore suavissima, in sapore melliflua, in tactu levissima, et crucifixi signaculo insignita, quoniam quando scinduntur ex transverso in eis apparet ymago crucifixi apertisscime veluti in cruce extensi. Non enim sunt arboris poma, sed cujusdam herbe in altum crescentis ad modum arboris, que musa appellatur; cujus folia in figura et colore foliis cujusdam herbe, que anglice dicitur radigche, multumque assimilantur, quamvis in longitudine et latitudine illa multum excedant...
  • It is to be known that the fruit of Paradise, to my better and safer judgement, holds the first place of all types of fruit due to their virtue without par. They're longer than they're wide and are yellow when ripe, very beautiful in appearance, very soft in smell, sweet as honey in flavour, very gentle to touch, marked with the sign of the crucifix, since, when split apart from one end to the other, the image of the crucifix appears on them as if extended on a cross. They're not fruit from a tree, but from a plant that grows up in the manner of the trees, called the musa. In terms of shape and colour, its leaves resemble very much those of a plant that the English call radigche [radish], although they exceed these a lot in both length and width...

Bananas were known to the ancient Romans, as a very rare foreign delicacy. There is exactly one mention of them in ancient times, in Pliny the Elder's Naturalis Historia (XII.12), from the 1st century AD:
  • Maior alia pomo et suavitate praecellentior, quo sapientes Indorum vivunt. Folium alas avium imitatur, longitudine trium cubitorum, latitudine duum. Fructum cortice emittit admirabilem suci dulcedine, ut uno quaternos satiet. Arbori nomen palae, pomo arienae. Plurima est in Sydracis, expeditionum Alexandri termino. Est et alia similis huic, dulcior pomo, sed interaneorum valetudini infesta. Edixerat Alexander ne quis agminis sui id pomum attingeret.
  • There is a greater one, surpassing other fruit trees even in softness, which Indian sages live on. Its leaf copies the wings of birds, being three cubits in length and two in width. It produces its fruit from its bark, and the fruit is astonishing in its sweetness, one being enough for four people. The name of the tree is the pala, and ariena [or: ariera*] that of the fruit. It is found in great number among the Sydraci, at the limit of Alexander the Great's campaigns. There is furthermore another fruit similar to this one that is even sweeter, but dangerous for the health of the intestines. Alexander declared nobody in his army could try tasting this other fruit.
* It's not clear from the manuscripts if it's ariena or ariera. It's possible that it's ărĭēnă as a nominalized adjective derived from ariēs 'ram' and the adjectival suffix -ēnă, since the shape of ram's horn might've been thought of as similar to that of a banana. But ariera could be a borrowing from some unknown source...


Over a thousand years later, at the very end of the 13th century, Marco Polo would, very interestingly, remark the same thing about bananas and Indian sages when discussing les Abraiamain de la provence de Lar, "the Brahmins of Lar", who he believed had been originally preached to by Jesus' apostle (Doubting) Thomas, but now followed a twisted and strange sort of religion.

Here is the relevant section from chapter 177, as written by his prisonmate Rustichello da Pisa, in Oïl-based crusader lingua franca. I am copying a longer section of the description than I need just to show Rustichello's rambling, mesmerizing style...
  • Encore vos di qe il ardent le oisi dou buef et en font poudre, puis s'en ongent en plusors leu dou cors con grant reverence, bien con ausi grant con font le cristiens de l'eive beneite. Il ne menuient en scuelle ne in talieor, mès menuient lor viandes en sus fuieles de pome de paraïs ou en autres foilles grant, mès non pas q'el soient ver, me seche: car les vers dient-il qu'elles ont arme, et por ce stoit pechiés, car je voz di qe il se gardent sor tutes les criatures dou monde de non fer couse dont il creesent qe fuissent pechés, car avant se lairont-il morir qe il fesse couse qe il creoist pechere.

    E quant les autres homes les demandent por coi il vont nus e qe il ne ont vergogne de mostrer lor nenbre, et il dient, nos alon nus por ce qe nos ne volan nulle couse de cest monde, por ce qe noz venimes en cest monde sanz nulle vestimente et nus, de ce qe nos ne avon vergogne de mostrer nostre ninbre, si est ce qe nos ne faison nul pechiés con elz, e por ce n'en avons nos plus vergogne qe avés vos quant voz monstrés vostre main o le vix, ou autres vostre nenbre de coi voz ne aurés à pechiés de luxure, mès por coi voz aurés vostre nenbre en pechiés et en luxurie, por ce le portés vos coverte et n'avés vergogne, mès nos ne avon plus qe de mostrer le dois, por ce qe nos ne faison nul pechiés con elz. Or tiel raison rendent à les homes qe li demandent por coi il ne avoient vergogne de mostrer lor nembre.

    Et encore vos di qe il ne ocirunt nule crature ne nul animaus dou monde, ne mouches, ne pulces, ne proques, ne nul vermes, por ce qe il dient qu'il ont arme, e por ce dient qu'il ne le menuierent por le pechiés qe il en aurent. Et encore vos di qe il ne menuierent nule couste vers, ne erbes ne rais jusque à tant q'eles ne fuissent seches, por ce qe il dient qe les couses vert ont arme...
     
  • Moreover, I tell you, they burn cows' bones and make powder of them, and then they rub it on their body with great reverence, as great as the reverence Christians hold when doing it with holy water. They don't eat on dishes or cutting boards, but eat their food on the leaves of the fruit tree of Paradise or on other big leaves, but not if they're green, only if they're dry, because they say they have souls, and so it'd be a sin. And I tell you, they, more than any other creature in the world, take care not to do anything they believe is a sin, as they'd rather let themselves die than do anything they think is sinning.

    And when other people ask them why they go naked without any shame of showing their member [the penis], they say, "We go naked because we want nothing from this world, because we came to this world without any clothes, naked. This is why we don't feel shame of showing our member. We don't sin at all with it, and so we don't feel any more shame than you when you show your hand or face, or any other part you don't feel any shame of. But why do you think of your member as both in sin and in [the fault of] lust? So you cover it, and you don't feel shame. But we don't feel more shame than when showing our back, because we don't sin with it." And so this is the reason they give people that ask them why they don't feel shame of showing their member.

    And moreover, I tell you, they won't kill any creature nor any animal in the world. Neither flies, nor fleas, nor ???*, nor worms, because they say they have souls, and so they say they don't eat them because of the sin they'd commit. And moreover, I tell you, they don't eat anything green, not herbs, not roots, unless they're dry, because they say green things have souls...
* Proques looks similar to Italian porche [ˈpɔrke] 'sows', but it'd be weird to put sows next to fleas, flies and worms... I don't know what this animal is supposed to be.
bradrn
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Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by bradrn »

I just found out about a language with a very interesting orthography. The Kiowa language has the following phonology:

/m n/
/p t ts k (ʔ)/ (according to one section of the Wikipedia article, the presence of the glottal stop is predictable)
/b d g/
/pʰ tʰ kʰ/
/pʼ tʼ tsʼ kʼ/
/s z h/
/(w) l j/
/a e i ɔ o u/ (also with nasal, long and long nasal variants)
/aj ɔj oj uj/

Nothing too interesting so far. But now have a look at the orthography:

⟨m n⟩
⟨f j ch c⟩
⟨b d g⟩
⟨p t k⟩
⟨v th x q⟩
⟨s z h⟩
⟨w l y⟩
⟨a e i au o u⟩
⟨ai aui oi ui⟩

Admittedly, this does have some very clever solutions to the problems which occur in romanizing Kiowa. And it was developed by a native speaker, which is impressive. But… ⟨f j ch c⟩ for /p t ts k/? Really? (Although I do quite like ⟨au o⟩ /ɔ o/.)

It’s worth noting, however, that stuff like ⟨j⟩ /t/ is tame, compared to the way Northern Qiang does ⟨v⟩ /χ/. And of course it would be very, very, very difficult to make something worse than Saanich
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Richard W
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Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Richard W »

bradrn wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:47 am But… ⟨f j ch c⟩ for /p t ts k/? Really?
Well, the obvious <b p ph> for /b p pʰ/ would elicit [b pʰ f] from many Enɡlish speakers, so why not improve it to 2 out of 3 straight-eight and then apply the rule that Kiowa has no [f]? I wonder if <j> was though of as a backwards <t>?

The other two are quite reasonable - ask any Tswana from Bechuanaland.
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Xwtek
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Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Xwtek »

You can't just make a people in the middle of an ancient sea trade route and say that it's isolated for a lot of time! Please fix this, whoever made Andaman Islands. At least Taiwan aboriginal do trade from Philipines!
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Darren
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Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Darren »

Korean? There are many mistakes in this conlang, but foremost within the phonology. The creator wanted to have a three-way contrast in stops, which is a very nice idea, but instead of something reasonable they chose voiceless, voiceless aspirate and a bit voiced. That last series is obviously the sign of an amateur. Voiced or ejective or implosive or prenasalised would be fine, but just calling it "tense" and basing it mostly on a tone distinction is very silly. As if that wasn't enough they made up another type of sound which is a "denasalised nasal." Also the grammar is basically copied from Japanese and the writing system is clearly fake.
Richard W
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Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Richard W »

Darren wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:42 pm ... they chose voiceless, voiceless aspirate and a bit voiced. That last series is obviously the sign of an amateur. Voiced or ejective or implosive or prenasalised would be fine, but just calling it "tense" and basing it mostly on a tone distinction is very silly....
The description of what the conlang is sounds very like a typical Tai system of five or six hundred years ago! (That is, if devoicing is as recent as some claim.)
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Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Frislander »

Dear Mr Scottish Gaelic. I know prepositional conjugation is good and all, but just really what is going on with this? Firstly your verbs are almost entirely uninflected for person/number, and yet you seem to think it OK to have not one but two (!) different sets of prepositional conjugations, honestly what's got into you?
bradrn
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Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by bradrn »

I was reading through a grammar of Bororo (a Macro-Jê language of South America), when I happened upon the following interesting statement:
Crowell (1979) wrote: Direct [speech] is realized by an independent clause … Aino ‘like that’ often follows the quotation.
Crowell includes the following example:

Dolor
Dolor
mako-re
speak-neutral
t-oreduje-ji;
coreferential-wife-referent
ako-re,
say-neutral
‘Makɨ
give
in-ai,’
1sg-benefactive
aino.
like=that


He translated this as ‘Dolor spoke to his wife; he said, “Give it to me.”’, but may I suggest a better translation as ‘Dolor said to his wife, like, “Give it to me”.’? I don’t know who decided to do this, but I believe it’s generally considered sloppy to import colloquial phrases from English into your conlang. This is very unoriginal.

Well, at least the rest of Bororo is reasonably original…

(Joking aside, I do find it very fascinating how exactly the same pattern has arisen independently in two widely separated languages. Maybe the ‘quotative like’ is more common than I thought!)
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Richard W
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Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Richard W »

bradrn wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:19 am (Joking aside, I do find it very fascinating how exactly the same pattern has arisen independently in two widely separated languages. Maybe the ‘quotative like’ is more common than I thought!)
What's the other language here? I thought English 'like' licensed paraphrase.

What springs to my mind is the Sanskrit and Pali iti 'thus', which is used to mark quotations. Until I scrolled down, I was going to suggest that the conlang Sanskrit ('a priestly fraud') had some English input.
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Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Richard W »

Darren wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:42 pm Also the grammar is basically copied from Japanese and the writing system is clearly fake.
Don't think you think it's clever to actually have a named conscripter (Sejong) in the back story for Hangul?
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Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Darren »

Richard W wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:15 am
Darren wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:42 pm Also the grammar is basically copied from Japanese and the writing system is clearly fake.
Don't think you think it's clever to actually have a named conscripter (Sejong) in the back story for Hangul?
This is clearly just the creator arrogantly referencing himself - "Sejong" is an anagram of "Jon Egs" which is the creator's true name.
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Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by bradrn »

Richard W wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:10 am
bradrn wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:19 am (Joking aside, I do find it very fascinating how exactly the same pattern has arisen independently in two widely separated languages. Maybe the ‘quotative like’ is more common than I thought!)
What's the other language here?
Bororo, of course!
I thought English 'like' licensed paraphrase.
I’m not entirely sure what you’re talking about here, but in my speech (idiolect? dialect?) it often marks direct speech, paraphrased or not.
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akam chinjir
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Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by akam chinjir »

Richard W wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:10 am What springs to my mind is the Sanskrit and Pali iti 'thus', which is used to mark quotations.
That's where I went, too.
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Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by 2+3 Clusivity »

bradrn wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:26 pm
2+3 Clusivity wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:48 pm Just found Paha. It has a pretty interesting kitchen sink-y phonology: interesting combo of secondary articulations and voicing contrasts with a bonus helping of non-sibilant coronal fricatives.

I am assuming the "voiced aspirates" are just breathy voiced.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paha_lang ... Luo_2006-7
You should post this in the If natlangs were conlangs thread. Or in the Rare/unusual natlang features thread.
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Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Vijay »

It works!
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Xwtek
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Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Xwtek »

Bilabialized bilabial consonant? How is anyone supposed to pronounce it? Did you actually mean Labiovelarized consonant?
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akam chinjir
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Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by akam chinjir »

Xwtek wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:49 am Bilabialized bilabial consonant? How is anyone supposed to pronounce it? Did you actually mean Labiovelarized consonant?
I expect it means with lip rounding, though it wouldn't be a surprise if they're also velarised.
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Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Richard W »

akam chinjir wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:08 am
Xwtek wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:49 am Bilabialized bilabial consonant? How is anyone supposed to pronounce it? Did you actually mean Labiovelarized consonant?
I expect it means with lip rounding, though it wouldn't be a surprise if they're also velarised.
Weera Ostapirat's thesis writes the clusters /pj/, /pw/ and /pɣ/ for Paha (contrasting with /p/ and the aspirated forms). We may well have actual clusters rather than secondary articulations - compare the dubious denial of Lao clusters with /w/ in the Wikipedia entry for Lao.
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Xwtek
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Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Xwtek »

Richard W wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:53 pm
akam chinjir wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:08 am
Xwtek wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:49 am Bilabialized bilabial consonant? How is anyone supposed to pronounce it? Did you actually mean Labiovelarized consonant?
I expect it means with lip rounding, though it wouldn't be a surprise if they're also velarised.
Weera Ostapirat's thesis writes the clusters /pj/, /pw/ and /pɣ/ for Paha (contrasting with /p/ and the aspirated forms). We may well have actual clusters rather than secondary articulations - compare the dubious denial of Lao clusters with /w/ in the Wikipedia entry for Lao.
Interesting. Can you give the source?
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Richard W
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Re: If natlangs were conlangs

Post by Richard W »

Xwtek wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:46 pm Interesting. Can you give the source?
Source of what? The Wikipedia article on Paha references the thesis (which is now free; I had to pay to get a copy), and the appendix of the article gives the Proto-Kra form of cited words. Are you asking for further cognates? The Lao debate can be found in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lao_ ... t_Clusters.
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