Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Natural languages and linguistics
Travis B.
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Re: Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Post by Travis B. »

hwhatting wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:14 am The distinction is syntactical:
The basic rule is that you use kennen with nouns (and pronouns standing in for them), wissen with complement clauses and infinitives (and pronouns standing in for them).
There are some exceptions for the advanced learner (wissen plus noun is possible in poetic langauge and some regiolects; there is the highly literary construction wissen um + NOUN "have knowledge of", you kann have complement clauses after kennen when you link them through a pronoun (Kennst du das, wenn den ganzen Tag nichts klappt? "Do you know that situation, when nothing goes right the whole day Long?") etc., but the basic rule is good for most cases you'll encounter when speaking German.
Vielen Dank. Ich hatte das nicht gewusst.
Thanks. I had not known that.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka ha wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate ha eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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jal
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Re: Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Post by jal »

hwhatting wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:14 amThe distinction is syntactical
Mmm, interesting, I think it's the same in Dutch. Don't know enough French to know if they have the same distinction. Any native French speakers here atm?


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azhong
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Re: Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Post by azhong »

„Außerdem hatte ich heute Morgen, außer einem Zimtbrötchen zu essen und einem Glas Milch zu trinken, auch ein belegtes Brötchen mit Hühnchen gegessen.“ or,
„...außer einem Zimtbrötchen und einem Glas Milch zu haben, auch ein ... Brötchen ... gegessen.“
shorter: Außerdem hatte ich heute Morgen, außer einem Zimtbrötchen und einem Glas Milch, auch ein Hühnchensandwich zum Frühstück.
"This morning apart from a cinnamon bun and a cup of milk I also had a chicken sandwich for my breakfast.”
More: show
außer + .DAT
das Glas; Gläser
die Milch
das Sandwich; -s

„Es klingt so, als seist du jetzt ganz überhaupt nicht hungrig.“
It sounds as if you're.CONJ-I.PRES not hungry at all now.

„Es klingt so, als würdest du später kein Mittagessen mehr brauchen.“
"It sounds as if you won't have to.CONJ-II.FUT-I eat lunch later. "
Last edited by azhong on Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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hwhatting
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Re: Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Post by hwhatting »

azhong wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:48 pm „Außerdem habe ich heute Morgen, außer ein Zimtbrötchen zu essen und ein Glas Milch zu trinken, auch ein belegtes Brötchen mit Hühnchen gegessen.“ or,
„...außer ein Zimtbrötchen und ein Glas Milch zu haben, auch ein ... Brötchen ... gegessen.“
"This morning apart from a cinnamon bun and a cup of milk I also had a chicken sandwich.”
That can be done shorter, like the English:
Außerdem hatte ich heute Morgen, außer einem Zimtbrötchen und einem Glas Milch, auch ein Hühnchensandwich zum Frühstück.
azhong wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:48 pm „Es klingt so, als seist du jetzt überhaupt nicht hungrig.“
It sounds as if you're.CONJ-I.PRES not hungry at all now.

„Es klingt so, als würdest du später kein Mittagessen zu essen müssen. “*1)
"It sounds as if you won't have to.CONJ-I.FUT-I eat lunch later. "
*1) This directly corresponds to the English construction, but it sounds very convoluted in German. What I'd say is als würdest du später kein Mittagessen brauchen., and I'd even throw in a mehr after Mittagessen for higher idiomaticity.
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azhong
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Re: Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Post by azhong »

Es klingt so, als sei er Künstler.
It sounds as if he is a artist.

Er redete so, als kannte er das Idol als würde er das Idol kennen.
He talked as if he knew the idol.
As the Konjunktiv II form is identical to the simple past form here, you can use the conditional here to express doubt.
(And in colloquial German, the Konditional is often used instead of Konjunktiv II even if there is a distinct Konjunktiv II form).
Er aß so, als hätte er eine Woche lang nichts gegessen.
He ate as if he had eaten nothing for a week.

Es klingt so, als würdest du morgen Kuchen backen.
It sounds as if you'll bake a cake tomorrow.
Last edited by azhong on Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hwhatting
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Re: Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Post by hwhatting »

azhong wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:36 am Er redete so, als kannte er das Idol.
He talked as if he knew the idol.
As the Konjunktiv II form is identical to the simple past form here, you can use the conditional here to express doubt: als würde er das Idol kennen. (And in colloquial German, the Konditional is often used instead of Konjunktiv II even if there is a distinct Konjunktiv II form).
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azhong
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Re: Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Post by azhong »

Could you please help check the following sentences? Thank you.

Es klingt so, als hattest du es.
(It sounds as if you had it.)(Accepting the possibility.)
Es klingt so, als hättest du es.
(It sounds as if you had it.)(Doubting.)

Es klingt so, als aßt du es.* als habest.KONJ-I du es gegessen.
Es klingt so, als hattest du es gegessen.

(It sounds as if you ate it.)(Accepting the possibility.)
*... the simple past rubs me the wrong way here. I'd use the [KONJ-I] perfect. ... In German the perfect is the more natural choice
Es klingt so, als äßest du es.*
(It sounds as if you ate it."as if you would eat it".)(Doubt.)
Es klingt so, als hättest du es gegessen.

(It sounds as if you ate it.)(Doubting.)

Es klingt so, als seist du reich.
(It sounds as if you are rich.)(Accepting the possibility.)
Es klingt so, als wärst du reich.
(It sounds as if you are rich.)(Doubting.)

Es klingt so, als wirst du reich sein* werden.
(It sounds as if you will be rich.)(Accepting the possibility.)
Es klingt so, als würdest du reich sein werden.**
(It sounds as if you will be rich.)(Doubting.)
*"Sein" is not idiomatic here.
**Also a note: A normal Speaker would interpret "als würdest du reich sein" the same as als wärst du reich (as if you are rich), i.e. a statement about the present.
Last edited by azhong on Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hwhatting
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Re: Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Post by hwhatting »

azhong wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:09 pm Could you please help check the following sentences? Thank you.

Es klingt so, als hattest du es.
(It sounds as if you had it.)(Accepting the possibility.)
Es klingt so, als hättest du es.
(It sounds as if you had it.)(Doubt.)

Es klingt so, als aßt*1) du es.
Es klingt so, als hattest du es gegessen.

(It sounds as if you ate it.)(Accepting the possibility.)
Es klingt so, als äßest du es.*2)
Es klingt so, als hättest du es gegessen.

(It sounds as if you ate it.)(Doubt.)

Es klingt so, als seist du reich.
(It sounds as if you are rich.)(Accepting the possibility.)
Es klingt so, als wärst du reich.
(It sounds as if you are rich.)(Doubt.)

Es klingt so, als wirst du reich sein.*3)
(It sounds as if you will be rich.)(Accepting the possibility.)
Es klingt so, als würdest du reich sein.*3)
(It sounds as if you will be rich.)(Doubt.)
*1) I can't say why exactly, but the simple past rubs me the wrong way here. I'd use the perfect - als habest du es gegessen. I think its the telicity, for which in German the perfect is the more natural choice
*2) No, that doesn't correspond to the English, it would mean "as if you eat it" or "as if you would eat it".
*3) Not idiomatic for me, at least in a bare clause without any qualifiers. I'd say als wirst du reich werden and als würdest du reich werden for the second clause. A normal Speaker would interprete als würdest du reich sein the same as als wärst du reich, i.e. a statement about the present.
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azhong
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Re: Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Post by azhong »

Are my understandings to the two sentences correct (according to your words in "more")?

Es klingt so, als sei Deutsch schwierig. Das glaube ich auch.
(It sounds as if German is difficult. I think so.)(literary + accepting the possibility):

... als wäre ob Deutsch schwierig ist. Das glaube ich auch.
(It sounds as if German is difficult. I think so.)(Oral nowadays + accepting the possibility):
More: show
„Es klingt so, als seist du jetzt überhaupt nicht hungrig.“ - That is literary German. Most People nowadays actually would say and write "als wärst du".
If they are correct, I have a question then:
Q: How should I say
"It sounds as if German is very difficult. I don't think so." (i.e. doubting)
in the literary expression and the oral expression nowadays respectively?
both are "als wäre Deutsch schwierig".
I think maybe the former should be
(literary + doubt): ... als wäre Deutsch schwierig. Das glaube ich nicht. (i.e. "wäre", identical as the expression above for "oral nowadays + accepting the possibility")?

And how about the latter, oral nowadays + doubting?

And another practice for the past tense:
Es klingt so, als habe er gestern gebacken. Das glaube ich.
(It sounds as if he baked yesterday. I believe it.)((> has.KONJ-I baked)
Es klingt so, als hätte er gestern gebacken. Das glaube ich nicht.
(It sounds as if he baked yesterday. I don't believe it.) ( > would have baked)
Last edited by azhong on Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hwhatting
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Re: Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Post by hwhatting »

azhong wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:06 pm Are my understandings to the two sentences correct (according to your words in "more")?

Es klingt so, als sei Deutsch schwierig. Das glaube ich auch.
(It sounds as if German is difficult. I think so.)(literary + accepting the possibility):

... als wäre Deutsch schwierig. Das glaube ich auch.
(It sounds as if German is difficult. I think so.)(Oral nowadays + accepting the possibility):
More: show
„Es klingt so, als seist du jetzt überhaupt nicht hungrig.“ - That is literary German. Most People nowadays actually would say and write "als wärst du".
The subjunctive I has no commitment on whether you accept the statelemnt or not. But if you add "das glaube ich auch", you commit. Another issue is that es klingt als implies that the speaker is forming an opinion based on what they heard, which doesn't fit with them already having an own opinion on the matter.
The best way to express non-doubting in colloquial German is with the indicative: Es klingt so, als ob Deutsch schwierig ist.
If they are correct, I have a question then:
Q: How should I say
"It sounds as if German is very difficult. I don't think so." (i.e. doubting)
in the literary expression and the oral expression nowadays respectively?
Based on what I said above, both are "als wäre Deutsch schwierig". The thing ist that colloquial doesn't distinguish between non-committing and doubt by use of different forms of the subjunctive. In order to add a stronger element of doubt, you can add adverbs like; Es klingt jetzt fast so, als wäre Deutsch schwierig, or use the conditional als würde Deutsch schwierig sein.

And another practice for the past tense:
Es klingt so, als habe er gestern gebacken. Das glaube ich.
(It sounds as if he baked yesterday. I believe it.)((> has.KONJ-I baked)
Es klingt so, als hätte er gestern gebacken. Das glaube ich nicht.
(It sounds as if he baked yesterday. I don't believe it.) ( > would have baked)
Correct, for the literary register. In colloquial, the first would be "als wenn / ob er gestern gebacken hat".
hwhatting
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Re: Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Post by hwhatting »

Ich habe gestern nicht gebacken.
I didn't bake yesterday.
Ik heb gisteren niet gebakken.
Jeg bagte ikke i går.
Je n'ai pas cuit hier.
Non ho cotto ieri.
No horneé ayer.
Heri non coxi.
Я не пёк вчера
Nie piekłem wczoraj.
Nisam pekao jučer.
Vakar nekepiau.
Es vakar necepu.
οὐκ ἔπεπτον ἐχθὲς
من دیروز نپختم
لم أخبز البارحة
Ben dün pişirmedim.
Мен кеше пісірмедім.
Man kecha pishirmadim.
Saya tidak memanggang kemarin.
hwhatting
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Re: Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Post by hwhatting »

hwhatting wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:07 am Ich habe gestern nicht gebacken.
I didn't bake yesterday.
Ik heb gisteren niet gebakken.
Jeg bagte ikke i går.
Je n'ai pas cuit hier.
Non ho cotto ieri.
No horneé ayer.
Heri non coxi.
Я не пёк вчера
Nie piekłem wczoraj.
Nisam pekao jučer.
Vakar nekepiau.
Es vakar necepu.
οὐκ ἔπεπτον ἐχθὲς
من دیروز نپختم
لم أخبز البارحة
Ben dün pişirmedim.
Мен кеше пісірмедім.
Man kecha pishirmadim.
Saya tidak memanggang kemarin.
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jal
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Re: Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Post by jal »

hwhatting wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:07 amIk heb gisteren niet gebakken.
Though a literal translation of the German sentence, "bakken" is a verb I feel needs a direct object. So I'd say "Ik heb gisteren niets gebakken". Note that "Ik heb gisteren niet gebakken" isn't wrong per se, it certainly is grammatical, but it focusses on the process rather than the result.


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hwhatting
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Re: Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Post by hwhatting »

jal wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:36 am Note that "Ik heb gisteren niet gebakken" isn't wrong per se, it certainly is grammatical, but it focusses on the process rather than the result.
It's actually the same in German, but maybe expressing it that way is less idiomatic in Netherlands than in German?
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azhong
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Re: Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Post by azhong »

Present tense
Es klingt so, als seist du fröhlich. (literary, non-doubting.)
Es klingt so, als ob du fröhlich bist. (oral, non-doubting.)
Es klingt so, als wärest du fröhlich. (literary/oral, doubting.)
Es klingt so, als würdest du fröhlich sein. (literary/oral, doubt emphasized.)
(It sounds as if you are/would be happy.)
Es klingt fast so, als wärest du fröhlich. (literary/oral, doubt emphasized.)
(It almost sounds as if you are happy.)

Past tense
Es klingt so, als seist du fröhlich gewesen. (literary, non-doubting.)
Es klingt so, als ob du fröhlich gewesen bist. (oral, non-doubting.)
Es klingt so, als wärst du fröhlich gewesen. (literary/oral, doubting.)
Es klingt so, als würdest du fröhlich gewesen sein. (literary/oral, doubting.)
(It sounds as if you were/had been happy.)
Last edited by azhong on Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Linguoboy
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Re: Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Post by Linguoboy »

azhong wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:15 am Past tense
Es klingt so, als habest du fröhlich gewesen. (literary, non-doubting.)
Es klingt so, als ob du fröhlich gewesen hast. (oral, non-doubting.)
Es klingt so, als hättest du fröhlich gewesen. (literary/oral, doubting.)
Es klingt so, als würdest du fröhlich gewesen haben. (literary/oral, doubting.)
(It sounds as if you were/would have been happy.)
Sein forms the perfect with the auxiliary sein, not haben.
Travis B.
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Re: Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Post by Travis B. »

Linguoboy wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:03 am
azhong wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:15 am Past tense
Es klingt so, als habest du fröhlich gewesen. (literary, non-doubting.)
Es klingt so, als ob du fröhlich gewesen hast. (oral, non-doubting.)
Es klingt so, als hättest du fröhlich gewesen. (literary/oral, doubting.)
Es klingt so, als würdest du fröhlich gewesen haben. (literary/oral, doubting.)
(It sounds as if you were/would have been happy.)
Sein forms the perfect with the auxiliary sein, not haben.
Vielen Dank, dass du mich daran erinnerst.
Thank you for reminding me of that.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka ha wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate ha eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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azhong
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Re: Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Post by azhong »

Past Perfect tense
Es schien, als hätten wir den ganzen Tag geschlafen. (literal, doubting/ non-doubting)
Es schien, als ob wir den ganzen Tag geschlafen hätten. (oral, doubting/ non-doubting)
Es schien, als ob wir den ganzen Tag geschlafen haben würden.(oral, doubting emphasized :?:)
(It seemed as if we had slept the whole day.

Future tense
Es scheint, als würdest du nächstes Jahr nach Spanien fahren. (litearry, doubting / non-doubting.)
(It seems as if you'll visit Spain the next year.)
Es scheint fast, als ob du nächstes Jahr nach Spanien fahren würdest. (oral, doubting with adding "fast")
(It almost seems as if you'll visit Spain the next year.)
More: show
- nach Spanien zu fahren
- scheinen | schien, geschienen |
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hwhatting
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Re: Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Post by hwhatting »

azhong wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:40 pm Es schien, als ob wir den ganzen Tag geschlafen haben würden.(oral, doubting emphasized :?:)
(It seemed as if we had slept the whole day.)
Formally correct, but many speakers actually avoid the the conditional of compound tenses (geschlafen haben würden) and use Konjuntiv II (geschlafen hätten) instead.
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azhong
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Re: Language Practice (Help your fluency)

Post by azhong »

Es klingt so, als ob du denkst / als denkest du, dass ich dein Messer nicht verwendet sollen hätte.
It sounds as if you think that I shouldn't have used your knife.

Es scheint, dass du dich jetzt über mir ärgerst.
It seems you are getting angry at me now.

Würde es passieren, wenn ich „es tut mir leid“ sage?
Would it work if I say "I'm sorry"?
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