Bengali thread

[rotting bones]

Thanks, these are suitably difficult questions.

1. Hindi loves participle + be constructions. Does Bengali?

In many similar contexts, yes:

সে বসে আছে।

ʃe

they.sg

boʃe

sitting

atʃʰe

be.3

"They (singular) are sitting there."

I think this is what misleads Hindi speakers into thinking they can use /atʃʰe/ like hai at the end of every sentence.

2. How do you form questions? (Hindi: intonation, or add kyā.)

For yes/no questions, use /ki/ at the start of a sentence or before the verb.

Otherwise, use question words at the word position:

/ki:/ what
/ke/ who
/kɔkʰon/ when
/kæno/ why
/kot̪ʰaj/ where

Literary:

কি গাব আমি?

ki

what

gabo

sing

ami?

I

"What shall I sing?"

This one's not so straightforward:

/kæmon/ how

3. What do the personal pronouns look like?

Generally avoid them unless you want to indicate some of these additional semantic features like politeness. Normally, just indicate person on the verb:

/ami/ I
/t̪umi/ you
/t̪ui/ you informal
/apni/ you respectful
/ʃe/ they singular
/o/ they singular (less respectful)
/t̪ini/ they respectful singular

Add -ra for plurals, which is obligatory for personal pronouns (if used) unlike for nouns:

/amra/ we
/t̪omra/ you plural
/t̪ora/ you plural informal
/apnara/ you plural respectful
/t̪ara/ they plural

/ini/ respectable person standing before us
/uni/ respectable person out of sight

-ar for possession on the singular forms. Remove -ra and add -ad̪er for possession on the plurals.

4. Do you have the derivational affixes -vālā, -i, -kār, -khānā, (negative) a-, (infinitive) -nā?

-vala: Not common, but yes, as -wala. Possibly derogatory. Certainly borrowed. I have used /pʰeriwala/ for 'hawker' in the text. The Kabuliwala is a cultural touchstone. Bengali equivalents include -i or -ari like priest /pudʒari/.

-i: Usually no, -t:o can create abstract nouns:

bond̪ʱu
friend

bond̪ʱut:o
friendship

But sometimes they are different words:

gɔrom
hot

ãtʃ
heat

For colors involving borrowed words, yes:

golap
rose

golapi
pink

begun
eggplant

beguni
purple

Looks like a borrowed paradigm restricted to semantic domains.

-kar: Rarely, and it's unproductive:

tʃitrokar
filmmaker

nattokar
playwright

But:

lekʰɔk (from lekʰa)
writer

ʃilpi (from ʃilpo)
artist

gajok (from gan)
singer

I would say -ɔk or -ok is your best bet.

-khānā: Not productively, except jocularly. I think these are borrowings:

tʃiɽijakʰana
zoo

karkʰana
factory

I think this because /tʃiɽija/ and /kar/ are not Bengali words. Using /tʃiɽija/ in a sentence would mark you as a Hindi speaker. /kar/ may not be understood at all. Bengali for bird is /pakʰi/ and work is /kadʒ/.

The Bengali equivalents would be:

Common:

dak-ɡʱɔr
post-office

/ɡʱɔr/ is room.

Literary:

ouʃɔd̪-alɔj
Pharmacy

/alɔj/ is 'home' as in the Himalayas.

However, /kʰan/ is used to mean place in some grammatical constructions. See question 7 for examples.

a-: Very commonly and productively.

-na: No. Bengali is -t̪e. Like /korit̪e/ in the last translated line.

Bengali has derivational suffixes like -man/-ʃil/-mɔj meaning person with the aforementioned ability.

5. What do possessives look like? Cf. Rām kā chātā 'Ram's umbrella'.

The Bengali genitive is -er:

Ram-er tʃʰat̪a

6. Do you have double causatives? Cf. gir fall > girā cause to fall > girvā cause to cause to fall

Under ordinary circumstances, there is only one causative, -no. We have seen one so far, /tʃalano/. That was jocular, and a bad example.

However, some words apparently have triple causatives by strengthening the stem vowel:

dʒɔla
to burn (fire)

dʒala
cause to burn (irritation)

dʒɔlano
cause to burn (fire)

dʒalano
cause to cause to burn (irritation)

I would have called this an effect of diachronic change rather than a synchronic derivation, but ok. The words are definitely related. (I saw this in the new English grammar pdf linked earlier. Edit: https://files.osf.io/v1/resources/3h9vp ... &version=1)

7. How do you form a relative clause? Is it detachable, as in Hindi?

In the last translated paragraph, we have seen:

dʒæmon ... t̪emni ... (In casual speech, t̪æmon ...)
as ... like.that ...

For a person, it's:

dʒe ... ʃe ...

যে ছেলেটা ওখানে দাঁড়িয়ে আছে সে আমার ভাই।

dʒe

who

tʃʰele-ta

boy.obj

okʰane

that.place

d̪ãɽije

standing

atʃʰe

be.3

ʃe

they

amar

my

bhai.

brother.

"The boy who is standing there is my brother."

I would say this is considered broken in standard grammar:

*ʃe amar bhai dʒe tʃʰele-ta okʰane d̪ãɽije atʃʰe.

I would understand it, but I wouldn't dare write it. This could be a difference in the level of informality that is tolerated in Hindi.

If I wanted to mention my brother first, I'd say:

আমার ভাই ওখানে দাঁড়িয়ে আছে।

amar

my

bhai

brother

okʰane

there

d̪ãɽije

standing

atʃʰe

be.3

"My brother is standing there."

For all the relative clauses of this paradigm, I'd say the dʒ- words have to come first:

quantity: dʒɔt̪o ... ɔt̪o ...
time: dʒɔkʰon ... t̪ɔkʰon ...
place: dʒekʰane ... ʃekʰane ...

8. Does Bengali have as many Persian/Arabic borrowings as Hindi, and if so, is there an anxiety to Sanskritize them?

Standard Bengali was already Sanskritized during the Bengali Renaissance. Dialects of Bengali spoken by Muslims have more Persian/Arabic borrowings. Some remain in standard speech. Kolkata was described as a /ʃɔhor/. No one says /nɔgor/ except as a suffix. /puri/ is most commonly used in the context of a fairytale kingdom, I think, but I could be wrong about that.

I'm going to skim through a Hindi grammar and ask if Bengali is the same or different.

Other than the phonology, some major differences include:

1. Bengali uses numeral classifiers before nouns. What I have called one.obj is also considered a classifier after the numeral. However, I feel like I want to stress how the objective case marks definiteness.
2. Negative sentences have a negative particle at the end. There have been many examples.
3. Bengali heavily uses a locative case suffix. I think what Hindi uses are postpositions.

[Raphael]

I hope you get better, rotting bones.

[rotting bones]

I hope you get better, rotting bones.

Thanks.

[rotting bones]

Staircase wit:

/t̪ãra/ they respectful plural

PS. For some reason the /t̪ /didn't show up last night. I'm going to fix that.

PPS. Let me know if there are any follow up questions.

PPPS. For objects, the relative clause is: dʒeta ... ʃeta ... (It's the objective case suffix again, which appears in many inanimate constructions.)

Come to think of it, you could say:

dʒe amar bhai ʃe okʰane d̪ãɽije atʃʰe.
He who is my brother is standing there.

This, however, is not the same sentence.

PPPPS. /tar/ 3rd person singular possessive

[Civil War Bugle]

How difficult is the literary language for the ordinary speaker? Is it closer to formal vs informal registers in English in your opinion, or does it require more overt training to understand?

[rotting bones]

How difficult is the literary language for the ordinary speaker? Is it closer to formal vs informal registers in English in your opinion, or does it require more overt training to understand?

Thanks for the question.

I would compare it to Shakespearean English. It's recognizably the same language. Some of the common changes are widely known, but people might mess up trying to write it because they might not know the appropriate vocabulary or remember the finer points of syntax. Literary Bengali contains a lot of Sanskrit vocabulary. The other most common changes are in the verb endings. E.g. In the spoken language, the verb ending /-ija/ changes to /-e/.

Having said that, Spoken Bengali can be just as hard, if not harder, than Literary Bengali. Literary Bengali is hard because the language is archaic and unfamiliar. The forms of Literary Bengali make it predictable, and therefore easier in objective terms, once you know them.

Unlike the passages from Tagore, sentences from the recent novel নাস্তিক পন্ডিতের ভিটা (Atheist Scholar's Estate, technically written in "Spoken Bengali") are genuinely difficult for me to translate. The second half of this one is incredibly hard: https://drive.google.com/file/d/12I7F76 ... sp=sharing

হয়তো একদিন

hɔit̪o

maybe

æk-d̪in

one-day

"Maybe one day"

বনের এই পথটা দিয়ে

bɔn-er

forest.gen

ei

this

pɔt̪ʰʈa

path.obj

d̪ije

through

"through this forest path"

বিকেলবোলায় হাঁটতে হাঁটতে

bikelbæla-i

afternoon.loc

hãʈt̪e

walking

hãʈt̪e

walking

"walking in the afternoon"

আপনি অবাক হয়ে দেখবেন,

apni

2s.resp

ɔbak

surprise

hoje

become

d̪ekʰben

see.2.fut.resp

"you will see with surprise,"

পুকুরটার পাড়ে

pukur-ʈar

pond.obj.gen

paɽ-e

bank.loc

"beside the pond"

অর্জুন গাছটার নিচে

ordʒun

Arjun

gatʃʰ-ʈar

tree.obj.gen

nitʃ-e

bottom.loc

"below the Arjun tree"

কবেকার একটা রথ,

kɔbekar

unknown.age

ækʈa

one.obj

rɔtʃʰ,

chariot

"a chariot of who knows what age"

অদূরে সোনার রেকাব জিঞ্জির পরানো

ɔd̪ur-e

faraway.loc

ʃona-r

gold.gen

rekab

stirrup

dʒindʒir

chain

pɔrano

wear.caus

"having been made to wear golden stirrups and chain, in the distance,"

পরানো "be made to wear" is a serious causative.

সদ্যোবলগামুক্ত একটি শ্বেত রথাশ্ব

ʃod̪:obɔlgamukt̪o

now-rein-without

ekʈi

one.obj

ʃ:et̪

white

rɔt̪ʰ-aʃ:o

chariot-horse

"now a horse without reins"

শ্বেত has a <b> that only makes the /ʃ/ longer.

আধোমানুষ-সমান ঘাসের জঙ্গলে

ad̪ʱo-manuʃ-ʃɔman

half-man-equal

ɡʱaʃ-er

grass.gen

dʒɔŋgol-e

jungle.loc

"in a jungle of grass half human height"

শান্ত ভঙ্গিমায় বিচরন করছে।

ʃant̪o

peaceful

bʱoŋgima-j

pose.loc

bitʃɔron

walking.around

kortʃʰe.

do.cont

"grazing peacefully."

ভঙ্গিমা is a dance pose. Dude, why are you doing this to me? If someone spoke like this, I would think it's a joke, but this guy is serious. This is prose styling.

Notes:

1. I think people find Bengali to be "sweet" because of the constant changes in vowel quality, e.g. ɔ-ɔ-...-o. This characteristic is usually more extreme in the literary language.

2. A mixture of literary and spoken registers is a complete no-no called /gurutʃɔnɖali/. Seeing it inspires big emotions in the grammarians. It is considered to be shamefully, scandalously ungrammatical. Writing the spoken language is completely fine. That's what people are told to do if they don't know the literary register very well.

3. BTW, this novel is a fictionalized story about the medieval Bengali Buddhist pundit Atisha (/Ot̪iʃ/ is still a common Bengali name) who is important in Tibetan Buddhism.

---

There is also some relationship between Literary Bengali and non-standard conservative dialects that I don't quite understand. This song is in a rural conservative dialect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL1InrwDMY4

আর কতকাল ভাসবো আমি

ar

and

kɔtokal

time.Q

bʱaʃbo

float.cause

ami

1s

"How much longer will I float"

দুঃখের সারী গাইয়া

d̪uɦkʰ-er

sad.gen

ʃari

song

gaija

sing.past.part

"singing sad songs?"

জনম গেল ঘাটে ঘাটে (আমার)

dʒɔnom

birth

gælo

go.past

ɡʱat-e

port.loc

ɡʱat-e

port.loc

(amar)

(1s.gen)

"My life passed from port to port"

ভাঙা তরী বাইয়া রে আমার

bʱaŋa

broken

t̪ori:

boat

boija

carry.part

re

oh

amar

1s.gen

"carrying my broken boat, oh,"

ভাঙা তরী বাইয়া ॥

bʱaŋa

broken

t̪ori:

boat

boija

carry.part

"carrying my broken boat."

The verb forms are quite similar to Literary Bengali. A recent song in Spoken Bengali using the same tropes uses contemporary grammar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0HaJ67FOM

গভীরে যাও আরও গভীরে যাও

gobʱir-e

deep.loc

dʒao

go.imp

aro

and

gobʱir-e

deep.loc

dʒao

go.imp

"Go deeper, ever deeper"

এই বুঝি তল পেলে ফের হারালে

ei

this

budʒʱi

understand.1s

t̪ol

perturbation

pele

get.2.past

pʰer

direction

harale

lose.2.past

"With every tilt, you lose your orientation"

প্রয়োজনে ডুবে যাও

projodʒon-e

necessity.loc

dube

sink

dʒao

go.imp

"Sink into necessity."

Bengal is mostly a river country. It's situated on the world's largest delta. Whereas the upper world is depicted as birds escaping cages in Bengali folk, the lower world is shown by a different set of tropes: the body is a boat, life is a river, etc.

[zompist]

I felt like amusing myself finding either cognates, or words I knew, in the last post. I am by no means trying to be complete.

æk-d̪in

one-day

Cognate to Lt. dies 'day', but not to 'day'

bɔn-er

forest.gen

Cf. Skt. vana... most familiar to English speakers in the derivation "Gondwanaland"

pɔt̪ʰʈa

path.obj

embarrassingly close cognate

ordʒun

Arjun

At least some will remember Arjuna.

rɔtʃʰ,

chariot

Skt. ratha, as in the name Dasaratha 'ten chariots'

ekʈi

one.obj

Skt. ek is cognate to "one" but has a different suffix

ʃ:et̪

white

cognate to "white"

rɔt̪ʰ-aʃ:o

chariot-horse

"horse" is cognate to Lt. equus

ad̪ʱo-manuʃ-ʃɔman

half-man-equal

another weirdly close cognate ("man")

jɔŋgɔl-e

jungle.loc

English borrowed the word from Hindi. Tho' the Hindi word refers to an arid region!

দুঃখের সারী গাইয়া

d̪uɦkʰ-er

sad.gen

I assume this is Skt. duḥkha 'suffering'?

dʒɔnom

birth

As in gen-; English cognate is "kind"

gælo

go.past

Assuming this is Skt. gam, the English cognate is "come"

ɡʱat-e

port.loc

We've borrowed "ghat" for both Indian quays and mountains.


গভীরে যাও আরও গভীরে যাও

gobʱir-e

deep.loc

"Baptize" is a cognate!

[Civil War Bugle]

How difficult is the literary language for the ordinary speaker? Is it closer to formal vs informal registers in English in your opinion, or does it require more overt training to understand?

Thanks for the question.

I would compare it to Shakespearean English. It's recognizably the same language. Some of the common changes are widely known, but people might mess up trying to write it because they might not know the appropriate vocabulary or remember the finer points of syntax. Literary Bengali contains a lot of Sanskrit vocabulary. The other most common changes are in the verb endings. E.g. In the spoken language, the verb ending /-ia/ changes to /-e/.

Having said that, Spoken Bengali can be just as hard, if not harder, than Literary Bengali. Literary Bengali is hard because the language is archaic and unfamiliar. The forms of Literary Bengali make it predictable, and therefore easier in objective terms, once you know them.

Thanks! It always seems hard to discern this in a language other than one's own.

I felt like amusing myself finding either cognates, or words I knew, in the last post. I am by no means trying to be complete.

[...]

pɔt̪ʰʈa

path.obj

embarrassingly close cognate

I bought the film Pather Panchali a while ago, and consulted the internet to try and find a gloss above and beyond the bare translation provided on the box of the DVD. I had a bit of a double take when I noticed what you noticed here. (The DVD box translates the title as "Song of the little road".)

[Richard W]

pɔt̪ʰʈa

path.obj

embarrassingly close cognate

Generally seen as a loan from Scythian to Proto-Germanic.

[rotting bones]

Thanks! It always seems hard to discern this in a language other than one's own.

Right. Anyone familiar with rural dialects wouldn't think Literary Bengali is that different from Spoken Bengali. It's just conservative. There are dialects which still talk like this minus the Sanskrit vocabulary.

Bengal has always had literary registers. Before the emergence of modern Bengali as a literary language, there was Brajabuli: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brajabuli

I bought the film Pather Panchali a while ago, and consulted the internet to try and find a gloss above and beyond the bare translation provided on the box of the DVD. I had a bit of a double take when I noticed what you noticed here.

I'm not sure I could watch it again. It's depressing critical realism like Oliver Twist.

(The DVD box translates the title as "Song of the little road".)

To me, "Song of the Road" sounds more idiomatic in English than "Song of the Path". I'm not sure the qualifier "little" is helping to improve the title.

[Travis B.]

pɔt̪ʰʈa

path.obj

embarrassingly close cognate

Generally seen as a loan from Scythian to Proto-Germanic.

Apparently it forms a doublet with find, PGmc *findan.

[rotting bones]

Generally seen as a loan from Scythian to Proto-Germanic.

Interesting. The Buddha was said to have been born in a Scythian family.

[rotting bones]

I felt like amusing myself finding either cognates, or words I knew, in the last post. I am by no means trying to be complete.

Thanks for the interest. Are there books you recommend for learning more about IE cognates?

Some comments:

rekab

stirrup

I'm pretty sure this is a Persian word, as are many relating to horsemanship.

ekʈi

one.obj

Skt. ek is cognate to "one" but has a different suffix

Without the suffix, the word would have been /æk/. Vowel raising.

ʃ:et̪

white

cognate to "white"

This is definitely a word typical of high registers. The common word is /ʃad̪a/.

rɔt̪ʰ-aʃ:o

chariot-horse

"horse" is cognate to Lt. equus

Without the sandhi, it would be /ɔʃ:o/. Bengali has kept a lot of sandhi rules.

The common word for horse is /ɡʱoɽa/. I am familiar with the word /ɔʃ:o/, but I wouldn't have understood /rɔt̪ʰ-aʃ:o/ in speech. Staring at the spelling, especially the silent <b>, gave it away. This is why Bengali spelling is not phonetic.

ad̪ʱo-manuʃ-ʃɔman

half-man-equal

another weirdly close cognate ("man")

/ʃɔ-man/ "equal" is also a compound: same-measure.

jɔŋgɔl-e

jungle.loc

English borrowed the word from Hindi. Tho' the Hindi word refers to an arid region!

In Bengali, it always implies dense vegetation. In Bengal, it is normal for uninhabited places to have dense vegetation. Assuming the word wasn't borrowed back from English, are you sure English didn't borrow it from Bengali? Because Bengali doesn't have any self-promotion, its sheer size seems to have faded from the consciousness of Western scholars. Bengal was the initial seat of the British in India, and Bengali is the largest Indo-European intra-ethnic language in the world. (নাস্তিক পন্ডিতের ভিটা is a dense philosophical novel that's sometimes hailed as a 21st century classic, but I've seen no attempts to translate it into English.)

দুঃখের সারী গাইয়া

d̪uɦkʰ-er

sad.gen

I assume this is Skt. duḥkha 'suffering'?

Yes, but the pronunciation is slightly non-standard. The common word is /d̪ukkʰo/. Compare Pali dukkha.

gælo

go.past

Assuming this is Skt. gam, the English cognate is "come"

Yes.

নাস্তিক পন্ডিতের ভিটা

/nast̪ik/ technically means someone who rejects the Vedas. However, it refers to atheists in contemporary speech.

t̪ori:

boat

The common word is /nouko/.

এই বুঝি তল পেলে ফের হারালে

ei

this

budʒʱi

understand.1s

t̪ol

perturbation

pele

get.2.past

pʰer

direction

harale

lose.2.past

"With every tilt, you lose your orientation"

I'm at a loss how to translate "এই বুঝি" into idiomatic English. This is a construction meaning something like, "Oh dear God, the boat is tilting; you are losing your sense of direction."

PS.

ɡʱaʃ-er

grass.gen

Ghâsh is "fire" in Tolkien's Black Speech. The word in a high register would be /t̪rino/ as in Mamata's Trinamool ("Grassroots") Party. Often, the texts say /kuʃ/, a specific type of grass used for seating.

[rotting bones]

The more impressionistic a song is, the harder it is for me to render a concrete English translation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca95MsBZ4_A (Edit: The lyrics I got off the web don't match the lyrics in this video in every detail.)

এ গানে প্রজাপতির পাখায় পাখায় রঙ ছড়ায়

e

this

gan-e

song.loc

prodʒapoti-r

butterfly.gen

pakʰa-j

wing.loc

pakʰa-j

wing.loc

rɔŋ

color

tʃʰɔɽai

spread.3

"In this song, color is spread in the wings of butterflies."

এ গানে রামধনু তার সাতটি রঙের দোল ঝরায়।।

e

this

gan-e

song.loc

ramd̪ʱonu

rainbow

tar

3s.gen

ʃat̪-ʈi

seven.classifier

rɔŋ-er

color.gen

d̪ol

Holi

dʒʱɔrai

shower.3

"In this song, the rainbow showers their (singular) Holi of seven colors."

রামধনু /ramd̪ʱonu/ "rainbow" means Ram's bow as in the incarnation of Vishnu.

Edit: For some reason, Holi is /d̪ol/ in Bengali. I don't know why this is the case.

সীমানা ছাড়িয়ে যাই যে হারিয়ে

ʃimana

boundary

tʃʰaɽije

cross.part

dʒai

go.3

dʒe

they

harije

lose.part

"Crossing boundaries, they are lost."

গানে আমার কে যে দিলো সুর সেতো জানি না।।

gan-e

song.loc

amar

1s.gen

ke

who

dʒe

they

d̪ilo

give.3.past

ʃur

tune

ʃe-t̪o

they.contrast

dʒani

know.1

na

neg

"What gave my song its tune, I don't know."

আমার এ গান শুনীল সাগর কূলে

amar

1s.gen

e

this

gan

song

ʃu-nil

well-blue

ʃagor

sea

kul-e

shore.loc

"My song, by the deep blue sea,"

মুকুতা খোঁজে শুধু যে ঝিনুক তুলে।।

mukut̪a

pearl

kʰõdʒe

search.3

ʃud̪ʱu

only

dʒe

that

dʒʱinuk

shell

t̪ule

raise.3

"searches for pearls only by picking shells."

সে কার বাঁশীতে চাই যে হাসিতে

ʃe

they

kar

who.gen

bãʃi-t̪e

flute.loc

tʃai

want

dʒe

that

haʃit̪e

laugh.loc

"They want to laugh at some flute"

কাছে আমার আসে কেন দূর সেতো জানি না।।

katʃʰ-e

close.loc

amar

1s.gen

aʃe

come.3

kæno

what.place

d̪ur

far

ʃe-t̪o

they.obj

dʒani

know.1

na

neg

"Why distances come close to me, I don't know."

Edit: This song is in Spoken Bengali insofar as it can be said to be in human language at all.

[zompist]

I felt like amusing myself finding either cognates, or words I knew, in the last post. I am by no means trying to be complete.

Thanks for the interest. Are there books you recommend for learning more about IE cognates?

It'd be better to ask in the Indo-European thread where people know a lot more about IE than I do.

I checked my post above using Wiktionary and some Sanskrit sources. There are better IE resources though!

ekʈi

one.obj

Skt. ek is cognate to "one" but has a different suffix

Without the suffix, the word would have been /æk/. Vowel raising.

I was unclear, I meant the PIE suffix. "One" derives from *oy-no- and "ek" derives from "oy-ko-".

jɔŋgɔl-e

jungle.loc

English borrowed the word from Hindi. Tho' the Hindi word refers to an arid region!

In Bengali, it always implies dense vegetation. In Bengal, it is normal for uninhabited places to have dense vegetation. Assuming the word wasn't borrowed back from English, are you sure English didn't borrow it from Bengali? Because Bengali doesn't have any self-promotion, its sheer size seems to have faded from the consciousness of Western scholars. Bengal was the initial seat of the British in India, and Bengali is the largest Indo-European intra-ethnic language in the world. (নাস্তিক পন্ডিতের ভিটা is a dense philosophical novel that's sometimes hailed as a 21st century classic, but I've seen no attempts to translate it into English.)

You may be on to something. Etymological dictionaries like to take it back to Sanskrit where it meant an arid region. But it makes a lot of sense if the English didn't simply reverse the meaning of the word, but took it from a modern language where it refers to dense vegetation.

[rotting bones]

I was unclear, I meant the PIE suffix. "One" derives from *oy-no- and "ek" derives from "oy-ko-".

Thanks. I've forgotten everything I once knew about PIE, which was never much.

[bradrn]

Without the sandhi, it would be /ɔʃ:o/. Bengali has kept a lot of sandhi rules.

Could you say more? This is something I’ve been wondering about for a while — namely, what happened to the sandhi rules in modern Indic languages.

[rotting bones]

Could you say more? This is something I’ve been wondering about for a while — namely, what happened to the sandhi rules in modern Indic languages.

Thanks for asking. This is a difficult subject: https://www.ebanglalibrary.com/lessons/ ... %E0%A6%BF/ There could be mistakes below.

There are at least two systems of sandhi in Bengali: Sanskrit sandhi and Bengali sandhi.

Sanskrit sandhi remains operative in Bengali spelling. It always applies to traditional words, but they need not apply to new words. Some of these spellings are not reflected in pronunciation.

Bengali sandhi has rules that weren't there in Sanskrit. It includes assimilation in rapid speech. One category of changes that is totally alien to Sanskrit is vowel deletion.

Examples:

1. Sanskrit Sandhi

a + a = a: (fake news)

হিম + আলয় = হিমালয়
him + alɔj = himalɔj
snow + home = Himalayas

হিম "snow" has a short <a> in Bengali only as a spelling convention.

i + i = i: (fake news)

গিরি + ইন্দ্র = গিরীন্দ্র
giri + indro = girindro
mountain + lord = Himalayas

গিরীন্দ্র is written with a long <i:>, but this extended length is not pronounced in Standard Bengali.

u + u = u: (fake news)

সু + উক্ত = সূক্ত
ʃu + ukt̪o = ʃukt̪o
well + spoken = sutra

সূক্ত's long <u:> is just /u/ in Standard Bengali.

Real changes:

a/a: + i/i: = e

পরম + ঈশ্বর = পরমেশ্বর
pɔrom + iʃ:ɔr = pɔromeʃ:ɔr
supreme + lord = supreme-lord

Note that this sandhi happens in Bengali even though পরম is not pronounced with a short <a> at the end!

a/a: + u/u: = o

সূর্য + উদয় = সূর্যোদয়
ʃurdʒo + ud̪ɔj = ʃurdʒod̪ɔj
sun + rise = sunrise

You don't need a real vowel at the end for this insanity to go through anyway:

হিত + উপদেশ = হিতোপদেশ
hit̪ + upod̪eʃ = hit̪opod̪eʃ
beneficial + advice = Hitopadesha

a/a: + ঋ = ar

মহা + ঋষি = মহর্ষি
mɔha + riʃi = mɔhorʃi
great + sage = great-sage

Because of vowel raising, the short <a> is an /o/ even though it's not indicated in spelling.

u + V = :V (written as <bV>)

সু + আগত = স্বাগত
ʃu + agɔt̪o = ʃ:agɔt̪o
well + come = welcome

Note the silent <b> in স্বাগত.

o/ou/e/oi break into component glides (b/b/j/j) before vowels:

গো + এষণা = গবেষণা
go + eʃɔna = gɔbeʃɔna
cow + seeking = research

<b> is real when it's not he second component in a conjunct.

Visarga sandhi:

Note: Visarga (ঃ) was pronounced <ḥ> in Sanskrit. In Bengali, biʃɔrgo is written in spelling:

দুঃখ
dukkho
sorrow

In this case, it lengthened the following consonant.

Visarga can become:

• o before voiced sounds: মনঃ /mɔno/ + যোগ /dʒog/ = মনোযোগ /mɔnodʒog/ "mind + joining = attention"
• r before vowels: দুঃ /d̪uʔ/ + আশা /aʃa/ = দুরাশা /d̪uraʃa/ "bad + hope = vain-hope"
• nothing at all: অতঃ /ɔt̪o/ + এব /eb/ = অতএব /ɔt̪oeb/ "from-that + indeed = therefore"
• r before voiced consonants: দুঃ /d̪uʔ/ + বল /bɔl/ = দুর্বল /d̪urbɔl/ "bad + strength = weak"
• শ /ʃ/ before tʃ/tʃʰ: নিঃ /niʔ/ + চিন্ত /tʃint̪o/ = নিশ্চিন্ত /niʃtʃint̪o/ "without + worry = carefree"
• ষ /ʃ/ before ʈ/ʈʰ: নিঃ /niʔ/ + ঠুর /ʈʰur/ = নিষ্ঠুর /niʃʈʰur/ "without + pity = cruel"
• ষ /ʃ/ before k/kʰ/p/pʰ after i/u (short only): আবিঃ /abi/ + কার /kar/ = আবিষ্কার /abiʃkar/ "manifest + making = discovery"
• স /ʃ/ before k/kʰ/p/pʰ after ɔ/a: নমঃ /nɔmo/ + কার /kar/ = নমস্কার /nɔmoʃkar/ "bow + making = namaskar"
• or what it was before: নিঃ /niʔ/ + সন্দেহ /ʃɔnd̪eho/ = নিঃসন্দেহ /niʃ:ɔnd̪eho/ "without + doubt = undoubtedly"

In the last example, the following consonant is lengthened again.

Voicing Assimilation:

দিক্ + অন্ত = দিগন্ত
d̪ik + ɔnt̪o = d̪igɔnt̪o
direction + end = horizon

Like k → g, there's also ʈ → ɖ and t̪ → d̪.

Devoicing:

তদ্ + কাল = তৎকাল
t̪ɔd̪ + kal = t̪ɔt̪kal
now + time = contemporary-times

t̪/d̪ geminates the following tʃʰ/dʒ/l/n/ɖ (শ /ʃ/ becomes a geminated tʃʰ):

উৎ + লেখ = উল্লেখ
ut̪ + lekʰ = ullekʰ
up + writing = mention

Nasal assimilation:

সম্ + গীত = সঙ্গীত
ʃɔm + git̪ = ʃoŋgit̪
together + sung = music

k-series → ঙ /ŋ/, tʃ-series → ঞ /̃ /, t̪-series → /n/, p-series → m and য (dʒ)/r/l/শ (ʃ)/স (ʃ)/h → ং /ŋ/.

2. Native Bengali Sandhi

All of these are real and productive in speech.

Vowel deletion at word boundaries in compounds:

কাঁচা + কলা = কাঁচকলা
kãtʃa + kɔla = kãtʃkɔla
raw + banana = green-banana

Glide Formation:

আলো + এ = আলোয়
alo + e = aloj
light + locative = in-light

Vowel Coalescence:

কয় + এক = কয়েক
koj + æk = kojek
some + one = several

Voicing Assimilation:

ছোট + দা = ছোড়দা
tʃʰoʈo + d̪a = tʃʰoɽd̪a
small + elder-brother = younger-elder-brother

r-deletion with gemination of the following consonant:

চার + টি = চাট্টি
tʃar + ʈi = tʃaʈ:i
four + classifier = four-things

Consonant Class Assimilation:

হাত + ছানি = হাচ্ছানি
hat̪ + tʃʰani = hatʃtʃʰani
hand + beckoning = hand-signal

t̪-series before tʃ-series → tʃ-consonant geminates, t̪/d̪ before dʒ → dʒ:

[rotting bones]

In this Spoken Bengali song, some final vowels dropped in everyday speech are pronounced for some reason: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uXN1yHuEtM (This time, I took the lyrics from the video itself.)

আমায় প্রশ্ন করে নীল ধ্রুবতারা

ama-j

1s.loc

proʃno

question

kɔre

do.3

nil

blue

d̪ʱrubot̪ara

north.star

"I am questioned by the blue North Star:"

আর কত কাল আমি রব দিশাহারা

ar

and

kɔto

how.many

kal

age

ami

1s

rɔbo

stay.1

d̪iʃahara

directionless

"How many more ages will I wander without direction,"

রব দিশাহারা।

rɔbo

stay.1

d̪iʃahara

directionless

"wander without direction?"

জবাব কিছুই তার দিতে পারি নাই শুধু

dʒɔbab

reply

kitʃʰui

only.neg

tar

them.1

d̪ite

give.part

pari

able.1

nai

neg

ʃuɖʱu

only

"I couldn't answer, only"

পথ খুঁজে কেটে গেল এ জীবন সারা,

pɔt̪ʰo

path

kʰũdʒe

search.part

keʈe

cut.part

gælo

go.1.past

e

this

dʒibɔno

life

ʃara

all

"this whole life went by looking for a path,"

এ জীবন সারা।

e

this

dʒibɔno

life

ʃara

all

"this whole life."

কারা যেন ভালবেসে আলো জ্বেলেছিলো

kara

who

dʒæno

as.if

bʱalobeʃe

love.part

alo

light

dʒeletʃʰilo

burn.3.past

"Some people had burned the light of love"

সূর্যের আলো তাই নিভে গিয়েছিলো।

ʃurdʒ-er

sun.gen

alo

light

t̪ai

so

nibʱe

extinguish.part

gijetʃʰilo

go.3.past

"that extinguished the light of the sun."

This is the most common because structure, with: X t̪ai Y

নিজের ছায়ার পিছে ঘুরে ঘুরে মরি মিছে

nidʒ-er

self.gen

tʃʰaja-r

shadow.gen

pitʃʰ-e

behind.loc

ɡʱure

go.round.1.part

ɡʱure

go.round.1.parr

mori

die.1

mitʃʰe

no.reason

"I chase my shadow for no reason"

একদিন চেয়ে দেখি আমি তুমিহারা।

æk-d̪in

one-day

tʃeje

behold.part

d̪ekʰi

see.1

ami

1s

t̪umi-hara

2s-lost

"One day I see I have lost you,"

আমি তুমিহারা।

ami

1s

t̪umi-hara

2s-lost

"I have lost you."

আমি পথ খুঁজি নাকো পথ মোরে খোঁজে

ami

1s

pɔt̪ʰ

path

kʰũdʒi

search.1

na-ko

no-emph

pɔt̪ʰo

path

mor-e

1s.loc

kʰõdʒe

search.3

"I don't look for a path, paths look for me"

মন যা বোঝে না বুঝে, না বুঝে তা বোঝে।

mɔno

mind

dʒa

that

bodʒʱe

understand.3

na

neg

budʒʱe,

understand.part

na

neg

budʒʱe

understand.part

t̪a

that

bodʒʱe

understand.3

"what the mind doesn't know while knowing, it knows without knowing."

আমার চতুর্পাশে সব কিছু যায় আসে

amar

1s.gen

tʃot̪ur-paʃ-e

four-side.loc

ʃɔb

all

kitʃʰu

some

dʒai

go.3

aʃe

come.3

"On four sides, all things come and go"

আমি শুধু তুষারিত গতিহীন ধারা।

ami

1s

ʃud̪ʱu

only

t̪uʃarit̪o

hail.storm.adj

got̪i-hino

movement-neg

d̪ʱara

stream

"I am, in a hailstorm, an unmoving stream,"

গতিহীন ধারা।

got̪i-hino

movement-neg

d̪ʱara

stream

"an unmoving stream."

[rotting bones]

Slang: viewtopic.php?p=103713#p103713