As you may have seen, I've been working again on Wenthish, or at least on Old Wenthish for now. This is a Germanic language - clearly historically influenced by, but not a member of, the Ingvaeonic branch - spoken in the Wenthars (an archipelago northwest of Ireland, southwest of the Faroes) in, let's say, the 9th century or so. Its greatest external influence, at this time, has been from Ireland - the ruling class are at this point Irish monks - although on the large scale this influence has not been immense.
Since the language is broadly contemporaneous with Old English, and as the language resembles Old English in some ways (though not in others), it seemed natural to translate the famous first few lines of Beowulf.
So, here's the Old English, the Old Wenthish, and the pronunciation of the latter (which probably has some errors in it). I'll be back later to go through sentence by sentence to point out any interesting things.
For now, though: what are your impressions? Too similar to Old English? Too different?
[Alas, I don't know Old Saxon, Old Dutch, Old Norse or Old High German well enough to translate into those as well, for a better sense of where exactly it stands in the family. But the opinions of speakers of other Germanic languages would certainly be of interest...]
Old Wenthish:
Huat! Gāsa-denhō, uisfūthon ui glōirēn, theod-cuinningē in dagem iērō, huu ēchtō thā etheleng fremdon! Fram oft slōgō scethen, fram manegēm theodom, Sceald Scābing miod-setla abetāch; agesōd hi thā Eorolenn, bisīth uarth ērstē hi fand gahrinhena. Fāth fuilgendē hi dīned: uōx hi binithrē uolkenes; ūder ēosōm, hi thách; alla sui thammē ēgehuīlca ūbsittendō, atober sa huala-pethē, scoeld hīnno hluisniena, ād cāin-gealda fragebena himma – that was ēna gōda cuinning!
Old English:
Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra
ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning!
Old Wenthish pronunciation:
/ʍatʷ/ /ɣʲaːzʲədʷejoː yzʲfʲuːþʷonʷ wi gʷlʷoːrʲeːnʲ þʷeoðʷkʷynʲnʲəŋʲgʲɛː inʲ dʷɑɣʲəmʷ jeːrʷoː/ /ʍu eːxʷtʷoː þʷaː ɛþʷəlʲəŋʷgʷ fʷrʷɛmʲðʲon/ /fʷrʷamʷ ofʷtʷ sʷlʷoːɣʷoː sʲkʲɛþʷənʷ fʷrʷamʷ mʷanʷəɣʲɛːmʷ þʲeoðʷomʷ/ /sʲkʲeəlʷðʷ sʲkʲaːβʷəŋʲgʲa mʲioðʷsʲetʷlʷa aβʷətʷaːxʷ/ /aɣʲesʲoːðʷ hʲi þʷaː eorʷolʷənʷnʷ bʲisʲiːþʲ wɑrʷþʷ ɛːrʲsʲtʲɛː hʲi fʷanʷdʷ ɣʲahʲrʲijənʷɑ/ /fʷaːþʷ fʷylʲɣʲənʲdʲɛː hʲi dʲiːnəðʷ/ /woːkʲsʲ hʲi bʲinʲiþʷrʷɛː wolʷkʷənʷəs uːðʷərʷ æozʲoːmʷ hʲi þʷaːxʷ/ /alʷlʷa sʷwi þʷamʷmʷɛː ɛːɣʲəʍiːlʷkʷa uːβʷsʲitʲtʲənʷdʷoː atʷoβʷər sʲa ʍalʷəpʷɛþʲɛː sʲkʲølʷdʷ hʲiːnʷnʷo aːðʲ kʷaːnʲɣʲeəlʷðʷa fʷrʷaɣʲeβʷənʷɑ hʲimʷmʷa/ /þʷatʷ wasʲ ēnʷa ɣōðʷa kʷynʲnʲəŋʲgʲ/
Eleven lines of Beowulf (Old Wenthish)
Re: Eleven lines of Beowulf (Old Wenthish)
I should resurrect my Írsc, which has a similar concept, except that it is a descendant of Old Norse rather than being influenced by Ingvaeonic. I shelved that one due to limited resources about Old Norse (e.g. the only real Old Icelandic dictionary I found was one from Old Icelandic to English, when I needed one in the opposite direction).
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka ha wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate ha eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate ha eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: Eleven lines of Beowulf (Old Wenthish)
As I mentioned in the other thread, I like the aesthetic, being a fan both of older Germanic languages and Irish.
But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me?
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?
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Frislander
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- Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:40 am
Re: Eleven lines of Beowulf (Old Wenthish)
Well phonetically is certainly looks very Irish, only I can't help but feel that what you write as labialisation should in fact be velarisation.
Re: Eleven lines of Beowulf (Old Wenthish)
Good point; it starts as labialisation but should probably become velarisation under the influence of Irish. Although, of course, we don't actually know when the original labialisation turned into velarisation in Irish, either! In any case, I don't think that detail particularly matters at this stage.
In terms of it being very Irish in that way: maybe not as much as you think. The secondary articulations are certainly phonemic, but their distinctive load is pretty small - mostly sometimes after long /a/ and more often in word-final position. Otherwise, it's mostly predictable from adjacent vowels and from the specific consonants involved. So in that sense, I'd see it less as a Germanic language made very Irish, and more as a Germanic language spoken with an "Old Irish accent"...
[sorry I've not been back to give more details; probably this evening]
In terms of it being very Irish in that way: maybe not as much as you think. The secondary articulations are certainly phonemic, but their distinctive load is pretty small - mostly sometimes after long /a/ and more often in word-final position. Otherwise, it's mostly predictable from adjacent vowels and from the specific consonants involved. So in that sense, I'd see it less as a Germanic language made very Irish, and more as a Germanic language spoken with an "Old Irish accent"...
[sorry I've not been back to give more details; probably this evening]
Re: Eleven lines of Beowulf (Old Wenthish)
Huat! Gāsa-Denhō, uisfūthon ui glōirēn, theod-cuinningē in dagem iērō
Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum þeodcyninga þrym gefrunon
Yo! We have heard of the glory of the Spear-Danes, of clan-kings in days of yore
The syntax in the original here is difficult, and decipherment controversial; I’ve gone with something that seems intuitive to me, fits the syntax of the language and I think generally maintains the sense of the original, even if the translation is not exact.
Syntactically, we see a topical sentence; in addition to being able to front a range of elements of a clause, Old Wenthish would sometimes, as here, give a topic (often, as here, a genitive) not syntactically a part of the following clause. We also see a feature of syntactic movement: Old Wenthish clauses may, in the absence of a sentence particle, be treated as underlyingly V2, but with the verb usually promoted to initial position by default (with the exception of copulas). Here, the initial topic prevents this promotion, so the verb remains in second position, with the subject following.
Lexically, the closeness to Old English is clear. The verb is different – a cognate of English “find” – and takes dative objects; the word “glōire” is borrowed. The semantics of the phrase “in dagem iērō” (in days of years) matches the Old English, though the phrase is analytic in Old Wenthish. Notably, a “cuinning” is not exactly a modern “king”, but rather an elected war-leader; by the time of Late Old Wenthish, there were no longer any cuinnings who could in fact claim the support of the entire theod (people-under-arms) – most being able to rally little more than a village at a time – but the concept would have made sense to Old Wenthish speakers in the concept of a legend.
huu ēchtō thā etheleng fremdon!
hú ðá æþelingas ellen fremedon
How those princes performed battle-feats
The free relative clause fronts the ‘battle-feats’ for emphasis. Notably, this old style of fronting doe not preserve the V2 syntax – probably because doing so would create ambiguity with SVO clauses, still possible at this time. As regards the vocabulary, little has changed, but for the loanword ‘ēcht’, a feat of battle – specifically often a bloody feat of battle. An ‘etheling’ is not strictly a prince – there being no hereditary monarchy – but can refer to any young man who shows promise as a leader (typically of a good background and bravery).
We also see here a morphological problem in Old Wenthish: the nominative plural. The Wenthish branch of Germanic apparently never had the robust -s plurals of the Ingvaeonic branch, and as a result a-stem masculine and neuter nouns lack a plural suffix in the nominative (several other noun classes have a similar difficulty). Sometimes, as here, the plural may marginally be distinguished through secondary articulation changes – singular ‘etheling’, with palatalised final cluster, but plural ‘etheleng’, with labialised final cluster – but for many words even that is unavailable.
Fram oft slōgō scethen, fram manegēm theodom, Sceald Scābing miod-setla abetāch
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum monegum mægþum meodosetla ofteah
Shield Sheafing often took mead-seats from enemy hordes, from many tribes
The Old Wenthish syntax here is typically tortured. Because the sentential particle ‘oft’ is present, the sentence has the underlying form SOV, with ‘oft’ given the second position. Thus, the default would be ‘Sceald Scābing oft miod-setla” etc; however, the prepositional phrase is fronted for emphasis. Bizarrely, sentential particles in Wenthish generally are found as the second word, not the second phrase, and hence ‘oft’ has been brusquely inserted into the heart of the initial prepositional phrase. The second prepositional phrase has been fronted likewise, because phrases with adverbial sense are typically in third position (though they may also be final, or fronted).
An interesting phrase here is “slōg scethen” – literally, “horde of injury” or “injurious horde”, but more accurately “enemy horde”. Old Wenthish often uses relatively abstract genitive expressions like this – as, in this case, does Old English.
Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum þeodcyninga þrym gefrunon
Yo! We have heard of the glory of the Spear-Danes, of clan-kings in days of yore
The syntax in the original here is difficult, and decipherment controversial; I’ve gone with something that seems intuitive to me, fits the syntax of the language and I think generally maintains the sense of the original, even if the translation is not exact.
Syntactically, we see a topical sentence; in addition to being able to front a range of elements of a clause, Old Wenthish would sometimes, as here, give a topic (often, as here, a genitive) not syntactically a part of the following clause. We also see a feature of syntactic movement: Old Wenthish clauses may, in the absence of a sentence particle, be treated as underlyingly V2, but with the verb usually promoted to initial position by default (with the exception of copulas). Here, the initial topic prevents this promotion, so the verb remains in second position, with the subject following.
Lexically, the closeness to Old English is clear. The verb is different – a cognate of English “find” – and takes dative objects; the word “glōire” is borrowed. The semantics of the phrase “in dagem iērō” (in days of years) matches the Old English, though the phrase is analytic in Old Wenthish. Notably, a “cuinning” is not exactly a modern “king”, but rather an elected war-leader; by the time of Late Old Wenthish, there were no longer any cuinnings who could in fact claim the support of the entire theod (people-under-arms) – most being able to rally little more than a village at a time – but the concept would have made sense to Old Wenthish speakers in the concept of a legend.
huu ēchtō thā etheleng fremdon!
hú ðá æþelingas ellen fremedon
How those princes performed battle-feats
The free relative clause fronts the ‘battle-feats’ for emphasis. Notably, this old style of fronting doe not preserve the V2 syntax – probably because doing so would create ambiguity with SVO clauses, still possible at this time. As regards the vocabulary, little has changed, but for the loanword ‘ēcht’, a feat of battle – specifically often a bloody feat of battle. An ‘etheling’ is not strictly a prince – there being no hereditary monarchy – but can refer to any young man who shows promise as a leader (typically of a good background and bravery).
We also see here a morphological problem in Old Wenthish: the nominative plural. The Wenthish branch of Germanic apparently never had the robust -s plurals of the Ingvaeonic branch, and as a result a-stem masculine and neuter nouns lack a plural suffix in the nominative (several other noun classes have a similar difficulty). Sometimes, as here, the plural may marginally be distinguished through secondary articulation changes – singular ‘etheling’, with palatalised final cluster, but plural ‘etheleng’, with labialised final cluster – but for many words even that is unavailable.
Fram oft slōgō scethen, fram manegēm theodom, Sceald Scābing miod-setla abetāch
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum monegum mægþum meodosetla ofteah
Shield Sheafing often took mead-seats from enemy hordes, from many tribes
The Old Wenthish syntax here is typically tortured. Because the sentential particle ‘oft’ is present, the sentence has the underlying form SOV, with ‘oft’ given the second position. Thus, the default would be ‘Sceald Scābing oft miod-setla” etc; however, the prepositional phrase is fronted for emphasis. Bizarrely, sentential particles in Wenthish generally are found as the second word, not the second phrase, and hence ‘oft’ has been brusquely inserted into the heart of the initial prepositional phrase. The second prepositional phrase has been fronted likewise, because phrases with adverbial sense are typically in third position (though they may also be final, or fronted).
An interesting phrase here is “slōg scethen” – literally, “horde of injury” or “injurious horde”, but more accurately “enemy horde”. Old Wenthish often uses relatively abstract genitive expressions like this – as, in this case, does Old English.