Salvian Thread: Hieroglyphs

Conworlds and conlangs
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Pedant
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Re: Salvian Thread: Hieroglyphs

Post by Pedant »

Image
The Salvian hieroglyphs for Visauru and Salvi.

Thousands of years ago the Navippan tribes (Classical Salvian navihpās "perennial wanderers, path-walkers") who first came to the Salvian peninsula learned to trace patterns from the phoenixes, creating simple but potent spells for themselves. They could not trace them through the air, as the firebirds did, but instead carved the symbols out of the ground. In the semi-arid scrubland of the Colonnade and the North, it was often sufficient to leave depressions in the earth, but in the cenote-filled rainforests of the West and South (and the monsoon gales of the East), something more permanent was required. And so came the tumaris, the white-stone roads acting as conduits between stone pillars onto which the geoglyph symbols (salvis) were carved.
And from those symbols arose the written language of the Salvians: every glyph representing a root word, with additional lines for derivations. Sometimes the rebus principle applied, but after three thousand years and with numerous new methods of writing made available (birch bark from Quiram, tapir vellum, papyrus from Hercua, the fabric of reality) the glyphs slowly began to change. Concentric style involved drawing the symbols in a spiderweb pattern; block capitals preferred pictograms carved in jade, or painted on pottery.
These two symbols are the name-glyphs of Visauru and Salvi, in Neoconcentric style (dating back to the 29th Century). These are usually drawn in the air, then imprinted onto an object–paper, stone, metal, flesh, it really doesn't matter. They can also been drawn using calligraphy brushes, although it's usually helpful to superimpose the circles before that (there's a very helpful spell for that, and believe me when I say that the Tanatapa family still makes a mint off it).

Writing in Salvian
The writing system can be best explained this way. Let us say you have the root word "run". In Classical Salvian, this would be represented by a single, relatively simple glyph, maybe two or three curved lines or circles. "Runner" would be represented as RUN-ER, with the appropriate suffix marked on the right-hand side of the glyph. Prefixed words like "re-run" follow the same pattern, RE-RUN represented by a mark on the left-hand side of the glyph. (Often these are simplified versions of other glyphs.) "Ran" would be RUNˆA, the infix represented above the root.
Writing direction in the modern day is left-to-right, up-to-down, or else up-to-down, right-to-left. Earlier texts often were written in Mayan style, left-to-right then up-to-down in two columns at a time.
My name means either "person who trumpets minor points of learning" or "maker of words." That fact that it means the latter in Sindarin is a demonstration of the former. Beware.
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Re: Salvian Thread: Hieroglyphs

Post by zompist »

Those are really pretty! Plus I like the complexity derived from repetition of a single basic shape (the arc).
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Bob
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Re: Salvian Thread: Hieroglyphs

Post by Bob »

Pedant wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:39 am ...
I read the part about the logographic writing system. That was great. I specialize in logographic writing systems, for 15 years now or so. That's why my linguistics is not so good and my conlangs are lazy. "Hieroglyphic Studies" is like 1/2 linguistics, 1/2 art history, and 1/2 anthropology. And I used to be a wiz at math! Now look at me. All those hieroglyphs done fried my brains.

You're brave to include a logographic conscript, though. Most people hardly touch them with a ten foot pole.

They're not straight-forward, either, it really does take one's whole life studying them to get past all the ignorance in academia and outside of academia regarding them. I hope to write a book or do more webpages or something.

I recently linked to my academia.edu page which contained a list of terminology I invented for the study of logographic writing systems. I wrote that about 5 years ago, maybe 3. BradRN memorably mocked it and my article there about the word "cowabunga". It took me about 15 years of intense private research to make that list of terminology and a BA Linguistics from Michigan State University.

https://independent.academia.edu/logographic155

The terminology list maybe needs to be revised. But discouraging responses like that aren't going to help it get done. I try to make clear how much I've put into all this and then I get criticized for doing so. People think they know better than me despite that I specialize in this. It's like talking to non-linguists about languages: They "already know". They were born that way, you see.

But this is what happens if you specialize in something that nobody else has done or few others have done or worked on: Nobody has any idea what you're talking about.

It's like sign languages: If we got someone on here who was an expert in sign languages, what sort of welcome would they ever get?
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Re: Salvian Thread: Hieroglyphs

Post by Ares Land »

Several people have done explanatory threads on various subjects in the L&L sections ; we've got one on ergativity, we had another great one on polysynthesis...

How about starting a thread about logographic systems? I believe you'd get a lot of interest.
I'm quite interested myself in the way you've made cross-comparisons of different logographic systems... I notice for instance, that you mention taboo glyphs, which I know about from Egyptian hieroglyphs, but I have no idea if similar processes were at any point at work in say, cuneiform or sinograms.

That said, let's take the discussion to another thread, this one is really about Pedant's conworld.

One last point. I'm afraid it's going to sound awfully condescending, but well, I think it need saying. You know the old piece of storytelling advice, "show don't tell". I believe it applies here; I think you'll get much better results by showing us your expertise, and not telling us about it.
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Re: Salvian Thread: Hieroglyphs

Post by bradrn »

Ars Lande wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:26 pm How about starting a thread about logographic systems? I believe you'd get a lot of interest.
Replying to say that I’d be interested in this! These explanatory threads have always been my favourite part of the ZBB. (Sadly most of them are on the old board and hence inaccessible at the moment — hopefully zompist will restore them sooner rather than later.)
That said, let's take the discussion to another thread, this one is really about Pedant's conworld.
That’s probably a good idea.
One last point. I'm afraid it's going to sound awfully condescending, but well, I think it need saying. You know the old piece of storytelling advice, "show don't tell". I believe it applies here; I think you'll get much better results by showing us your expertise, and not telling us about it.
Seconded. (Though admittedly Bob has already shown his knowledge elsewhere.)
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Re: Salvian Thread: Hieroglyphs

Post by Pedant »

I most certainly would not mind such a thread! It'd be rather useful to see ways I could improve my work…
My name means either "person who trumpets minor points of learning" or "maker of words." That fact that it means the latter in Sindarin is a demonstration of the former. Beware.
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Re: Salvian Thread: Hieroglyphs

Post by Bob »

Ars Lande wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:26 pm Several people have done explanatory threads ...
Oh, I keep hearing suggestions, a few couched the better, the majority couched not so well. But I visit this group so seldom, I don't know if I'll be able to remember or do the suggestions. When I do get around to posting, I post what I do. The place to find my best work is my website homepage, from which I link to it.

https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... w=flipcard

I've done some posts to the new Zompist Bboard, though, aside from just giving this link, which give evidence of my ability with logographic writing systems. If there's something lacking to those, I have refered people to my homepage which refers people to my facebook group Hieroglyphic Writing Systems Linguistics. I don't think people care enough to do all that and read what I write. They just dismiss me quickly or give me suggestions that I post even more than for which I have struggled to muster the enthusiasm and energy.

This thread on logographic scripts I'll take into consideration for the future and for when I get more into them again. The last 3 whole years I've been away from focused projects on particular logographic scripts. Which is not good because it's a specialty that requires focus to do best.

But my last few posts to my one blog were about Sumerian and Cuneiform writing systems. If anyone cares to read some or all of these carefully and then ask me some questions after complimenting me on my hard work at some length, well, that would be wonderful. The problem with specializing in something like this, though, is that anything I write about it quickly goes over people's heads or interest levels.

https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... w=flipcard

https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... w=flipcard

https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... w=flipcard

https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... w=flipcard

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https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... w=flipcard

https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... w=flipcard

https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... w=flipcard
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