Paleo-European languages

[Talskubilos]

Can you not present NEC and/or NWC reconstructions instead of NC reconstructions?

As I said before, Starostin's reconstructions are basically from East Caucasian (Nakh-Daghestanian), with West Caucasian (Abkhaz-Adyghe) being treated as one more branch. On the other hand, the epithet "North" can be dropped, because the former "South Caucasian" has been relabelled as Kartvelian.

It'd distance you from the disbelief that automatically greets 'proto-NC', and perhaps even get you some of the sympathy shown towards proto-Pontic.

I don't support Colarusso's Pontic, although PIE has some WC loanwords, namely the numeral '2'. There's also a Wanderwort found in Hattic χa-palki, Hurrian χa-balgi, Balto-Slavic *geleǵ- ‘iron’ and Greek khalkós ‘copper’, which can be traced to a WC compound of *ʁ́ˁʷǝ ‘copper; metal’ and *tɬˀwV ‘blue, green’, with the lateral affricate being reflected as a cluster lK.

[Richard W]

On the other hand, the epithet "North" can be dropped, because the former "South Caucasian" has been relabelled as Kartvelian.

That's not how clear language works. If you just say 'Caucasian', people are liable to think you are referring to the conjectured union of the three families, inducing antipathy towards your claims.

[Skookum]

It'd distance you from the disbelief that automatically greets 'proto-NC', and perhaps even get you some of the sympathy shown towards proto-Pontic.

I don't support Colarusso's Pontic, although PIE has some WC loanwords, namely the numeral '2'. There's also a Wanderwort found in Hattic χa-palki, Hurrian χa-balgi, Balto-Slavic *geleǵ- ‘iron’ and Greek khalkós ‘copper’, which can be traced to a WC compound of *ʁ́ˁʷǝ ‘copper; metal’ and *tɬˀwV ‘blue, green’, with the lateral affricate being reflected as a cluster lK.

Where does the labial stop in the Hurrian and Hattic forms come from? Also, I don't think Balto-Slavic ǵ corresponds to Greek k, although others who know more about IE phonological developments can correct me if I'm wrong.

[WeepingElf]

It'd distance you from the disbelief that automatically greets 'proto-NC', and perhaps even get you some of the sympathy shown towards proto-Pontic.

I don't support Colarusso's Pontic, although PIE has some WC loanwords, namely the numeral '2'. There's also a Wanderwort found in Hattic χa-palki, Hurrian χa-balgi, Balto-Slavic *geleǵ- ‘iron’ and Greek khalkós ‘copper’, which can be traced to a WC compound of *ʁ́ˁʷǝ ‘copper; metal’ and *tɬˀwV ‘blue, green’, with the lateral affricate being reflected as a cluster lK.

Where does the labial stop in the Hurrian and Hattic forms come from? Also, I don't think Balto-Slavic ǵ corresponds to Greek k, although others who know more about IE phonological developments can correct me if I'm wrong.

Indeed it doesn't, unless the Balto-Slavic ǵ comes from PIE *ǵh and there is a second voiced aspirate later in the word which invokes Grassmann's Law, giving Greek k. But that is not the case here! There is no way BSl *geleǵ- can match Greek khalkós. Of course, T. claims that both are loanwords from somewhere else and not reflexes of the same PIE item, which makes the non-correspondence less relevant. Yet, that way anything can "match" anything, making the whole enterprise unfalsifiable and scientifically worthless.

[Zju]

I'm not sure this is a "real" PIE word, because it's only attested in Hellenic and Baltic, but never mind.

*yēgʷ- is also attested in (South) Slavic *jakъ 'strong'.

Of course, South Slavic seems not to be a clade either!

South Slavic may or may not have shared innovations, but is a useful label nonetheless - it's a seperate geographic entity, a language continuum, and as in this case, shares lexical items not found in the other two branches.

[Talskubilos]

I don't support Colarusso's Pontic, although PIE has some WC loanwords, namely the numeral '2'. There's also a Wanderwort found in Hattic χa-palki, Hurrian χa-balgi, Balto-Slavic *geleǵ- ‘iron’ and Greek khalkós ‘copper’, which can be traced to a WC compound of *ʁ́ˁʷǝ ‘copper; metal’ and *tɬˀwV ‘blue, green’, with the lateral affricate being reflected as a cluster lK.

Where does the labial stop in the Hurrian and Hattic forms come from? Also, I don't think Balto-Slavic ǵ corresponds to Greek k, although others who know more about IE phonological developments can correct me if I'm wrong.

Indeed it doesn't, unless the Balto-Slavic ǵ comes from PIE *ǵh and there is a second voiced aspirate later in the word which invokes Grassmann's Law, giving Greek k. But that is not the case here! There is no way BSl *geleǵ- can match Greek khalkós. Of course, T. claims that both are loanwords from somewhere else and not reflexes of the same PIE item, which makes the non-correspondence less relevant. Yet, that way anything can "match" anything, making the whole enterprise unfalsifiable and scientifically worthless.

You should bear in mind we're dealing with a Wanderwort and not an inherited PIE item! The labial stop in Hurrian and Hattic comes from reduction of the original labiouvular. Here's a quote from Starostin's NCED:

There is more to be said about the hypothetical PWC *ʁ́Iʷǝƛ̣ʷV 'iron'. Since several authors relate the Hatti language to WC (see, e.g., Ivanov 1985), it seems very tempting to relate *ʁ́Iʷǝƛ̣ʷV to the attested Hatti name for 'iron', χap/walki (with χVw- rendering *ʁ́Iʷ- and -lk- rendering the lateral -ƛ̣-), borrowed in Hurrian as χabalgi, and further Greek khalkó-s, Balto-Slav. *geleǵ- etc. (see Starostin 1985).

.I agree with him except that Hattic χa- is a prefix and not part of the root.

[Skookum]

There is more to be said about the hypothetical PWC *ʁ́Iʷǝƛ̣ʷV 'iron'. Since several authors relate the Hatti language to WC (see, e.g., Ivanov 1985), it seems very tempting to relate *ʁ́Iʷǝƛ̣ʷV to the attested Hatti name for 'iron', χap/walki (with χVw- rendering *ʁ́Iʷ- and -lk- rendering the lateral -ƛ̣-), borrowed in Hurrian as χabalgi, and further Greek khalkó-s, Balto-Slav. *geleǵ- etc. (see Starostin 1985).

.I agree with him except that Hattic χa- is a prefix and not part of the root.

I could maybe see PWC *ʁ́Iʷǝƛ̣ʷV > Hurrian χabalgi > Hattic χap/walki > (Hittite?) > Greek khalkó-s as a plausible route of borrowing, but I don't know how realistic it is to connect the Balto-Slavic forms to this... Also, I don't see where the PWC *lʷ comes from in that root? Elsewhere the page you linked just gives *ʁʷǝ- as a morpheme meaning "metal".

And if we wanna get really crazy with Wanderworter speculation, Ubykh wǝsʷá "copper, bronze" bears an uncanny resemblance to Proto-Athabaskan *wəšʷ "metal".

[Richard W]

And if we wanna get really crazy with Wanderworter speculation, Ubykh wǝsʷá "copper, bronze" bears an uncanny resemblance to Proto-Athabaskan *wəšʷ "metal".

Looks Proto-Dene-Caucasian to me!

[Skookum]

Now we're talking!
But seriously, I offer that example only as a cautionary tale that these kinds of chance resemblances are very likely, even when the phonetics and semantics match extremely well.

[Richard W]

But seriously, I offer that example only as a cautionary tale that these kinds of chance resemblances are very likely, even when the phonetics and semantics match extremely well.

Be cautious with cautionary tales. While the wider ramifications of Dene-Caucasian may be wrong, Dene-Caucasian may be unprovable rather than wrong. (I assume that historical truth is well-defined, albeit often unknown.) One can use Mbabaram dog 'dog' as an example because it has a good Pama-Nyungan etymology which disproves any connection with the English word.

[Skookum]

But seriously, I offer that example only as a cautionary tale that these kinds of chance resemblances are very likely, even when the phonetics and semantics match extremely well.

Be cautious with cautionary tales. While the wider ramifications of Dene-Caucasian may be wrong, Dene-Caucasian may be unprovable rather than wrong. (I assume that historical truth is well-defined, albeit often unknown.) One can use Mbabaram dog 'dog' as an example because it has a good Pama-Nyungan etymology which disproves any connection with the English word.

Tbh I don't find the evidence for Dene-Yeniseian all that convincing, never mind Dene-Caucasian. But that's a topic for the Great Macrofamily thread...

[Talskubilos]

I could maybe see PWC *ʁ́Iʷǝƛ̣ʷV > Hurrian χabalgi > Hattic χap/walki > (Hittite?) > Greek khalkó-s as a plausible route of borrowing, but I don't know how realistic it is to connect the Balto-Slavic forms to this... Also, I don't see where the PWC *lʷ comes from in that root? Elsewhere the page you linked just gives *ʁʷǝ- as a morpheme meaning "metal".

WC roots are monosyllablic. The link I provided is for *ƛ̣ʷV (IPA *ttɬˀʷV) 'blue, green', which in some branches forms a compound *ʁ́Iʷǝ-ƛ̣ʷV with *ʁ́Iʷǝ 'copper, metal'. This compound would be the source of the Wanderwort.

And if we wanna get really crazy with Wanderworter speculation, Ubykh wǝsʷá "copper, bronze" bears an uncanny resemblance to Proto-Athabaskan *wəšʷ "metal".

This reminds me of Vitalij Shevoroshkin, who regards Salishan and Wakashan, two North American indigenous language families, as an offspring of Northeast Caucasian, not merely a long-range relationship. A crackpot work?

[bradrn]

And if we wanna get really crazy with Wanderworter speculation, Ubykh wǝsʷá "copper, bronze" bears an uncanny resemblance to Proto-Athabaskan *wəšʷ "metal".

Actually, Vitalij Shevoroshkin regards Salishan and Wakashan, two North American indigenous language families, as an offspring of Northeast Caucasian, not merely a long-range relationship. A crackpot work?

Yeah, I’d say it is. I’m not qualified to talk about the details of his arguments (except to point out the intrinsic unlikeliness of this hypothesis) — but I did notice that quite a few of the ‘Global Journals’ (though not this one) are listed as predatory, with the typography, structure and writing style of this paper also being exceedingly poor. All of which makes me somewhat suspicious of the trustworthiness of this journal, and by extension this paper.

EDIT: Yep, it’s predatory.

[Talskubilos]

Another example of such journals would be The Macro-Comparative Journal, whose only author and editor are the same person, Arnaud Fournet. He's a crackpot who wrote a book (coauthored with Allan Bomhard) claiming Hurrian was an IE language.

[WeepingElf]

Another example of such journals would be The Macro-Comparative Journal, whose only author and editor are the same person, Arnaud Fournet.

That, it seems to me, is not as much a predatory journal as just a pompously titled personal web site of a crackpot.

[sangi39]

"This is actually"..., "actually, you'll find that...", etc. I hope these are just poorly formulated "maybes", but for the most part they come across as definite "you are wrong, here is the actual source" with little to no evidence, then "substantiated" with even more "you'll find that"... statements. That's the problem for me, i.e. that these etymologies are presented as "you're wrong, here's the actual one" facts, as opposed to "here's an idea, based on [insert evidence here]".

[Moose-tache]

Arnaud Fournet

This man has singlehandedly set kerning back 20 years.

[Talskubilos]

This is an Etruscan stele with the text tular raśnal, which apparently served as a boundary stone. The word tular is the plural form of tul 'stone' and raśnal is the genitive form of raśna. I'd translate the inscription as 'national border', just as the Polish signs Granica Państwa.

[Richard W]

This reminds me of Vitalij Shevoroshkin, who regards Salishan and Wakashan, two North American indigenous language families, as an offspring of Northeast Caucasian, not merely a long-range relationship. A crackpot work?

Just from its title, I fear it would be a brave Americanist who said it was fit for publication, however good its content. Perhaps it was a matter of getting his work published before he dropped dead - Sergei Starostin's unexpected death could well have preyed on his mind. I'm don't think we can judge this work just by its covers, though an ad hominem assessment may be appropriate.

[anteallach]

But seriously, I offer that example only as a cautionary tale that these kinds of chance resemblances are very likely, even when the phonetics and semantics match extremely well.

Be cautious with cautionary tales. While the wider ramifications of Dene-Caucasian may be wrong, Dene-Caucasian may be unprovable rather than wrong. (I assume that historical truth is well-defined, albeit often unknown.) One can use Mbabaram dog 'dog' as an example because it has a good Pama-Nyungan etymology which disproves any connection with the English word.

Well, it isn't impossible, but in the absence of convincing evidence that specific grouping of languages seems very unlikely.

The trouble I always have with Dene-Caucasian is remembering seeing Larry Trask's demolitions of some of the attempts to link Basque to it. And that seems to be part of a common pattern with a lot of these long range proposals: the people who actually know the languages in question don't believe them and see a lot of flaws in the claimed evidence.