I do find myself rather unsure of how to pronounce it, notably I find myself assuming ä to be [ɛ], though I suppose it could be [æ]; also, is j intended to be [j], [ʒ], [d͡ʒ], [ʑ], [ɟ͡ʑ], [ʐ], [ɖ͡ʐ], or something else? it seems to pattern with both /s/ and /i/, depending on the context, so I'm guessing it must descend from multiple sources, and possibly be some sort of consonant in variantion between [j~(d)ʒ~(ɟ)ʑ] (unless, of course, the third-person inanimate accusative and directional(?) are suppletive, or the j- is a typographical error).KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:41 pm The phonology isn't terribly interesting, but that's ok. The main divergences from the IPA are /b d g/ which are [β ð ɣ], except when immediately before a voiceless stop, in which case they devoice to [ɸ θ x]. The [ɸ] produced by this merges with original /f/ [ɸ].
Classical Saarvian Scratchpad
- Rounin Ryuuji
- Posts: 2994
- Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:47 pm
Re: Yet-Unnamed Language Scratchpad
- KathTheDragon
- Posts: 780
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:57 am
- Location: Disunited Kingdom
Re: Yet-Unnamed Language Scratchpad
Have a complete sentence: se-peŋŋ se-kanjo se-mijom-käll-sä lowo ro-soo-nobuad "The fox ate the fish intended for the child"
And the gloss:
And the gloss:
- se-
- ᴅᴇꜰ=
- peŋŋ
- fox{ᴀʙs}
- se-
- ᴅᴇꜰ=
- kanjo
- ʀᴇʟ.ᴀɴ-ᴀᴄᴄ
- se-
- ᴅᴇꜰ=
- mijom
- child-ᴅɪʀ
- -käll
- =ɢᴇɴ
- -sä
- =3
- lowo
- fish-ᴀᴄᴄ
- ro-
- ᴘꜰᴠ=
- soo-
- 3>3=
- nobuad
- eat-ᴘsᴛ
Alright, I can give a more complete exposition (though specific allophone distributions and phonetic details are subject to change). p t k are [pʰ tʰ kʰ] word-initially and after voiceless consonants, [p t k] before voiceless consonants, and [b̥ d̥ g̊] (weakly-voiced) in most other contexts. b d g are [ɸ θ x] before a voiceless consonant and [β ð ɣ] otherwise. f s h l j w m n ŋ are always [ɸ s h l j w m n ŋ]. I will not commit to a specific rhotic for r other than it's a coronal sonorant. ä a e o i u are [æ ɑ e o i u] in stressed syllables (the first syllable of non-clitics). In unstressed syllables only e o i u are written, and stand for [ə o ɨ u], though the back vowels are only weakly rounded. Doubly-written vowels are just the long counterparts of the short vowels, except that ee oo are [ɛː ɔː]. iä ie ua uo are [i̯æˑ i̯eˑ u̯ɑˑ u̯oˑ].
Last edited by KathTheDragon on Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- KathTheDragon
- Posts: 780
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:57 am
- Location: Disunited Kingdom
Re: Yet-Unnamed Language Scratchpad
Neither of these. /j/ is deleted word-initially before a high vowel or one of the front diphthongs. ie- is thus *jie-.Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:20 pmunless, of course, the third-person inanimate accusative and directional(?) are suppletive, or the j- is a typographical error
Re: Yet-Unnamed Language Scratchpad
Are you sure this shouldn’t be [æ ɑ e o i u]?KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:56 pm ä a e o i u are [æ e i ɑ o u] in stressed syllables (the first syllable of non-clitics).
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices
(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices
(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
- KathTheDragon
- Posts: 780
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:57 am
- Location: Disunited Kingdom
Re: Yet-Unnamed Language Scratchpad
You're absolutely right. I changed the order of the graphemes and my brain ignored that when I wrote the transcription.
- quinterbeck
- Posts: 385
- Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:19 pm
- Location: UK
Re: Yet-Unnamed Language Scratchpad
Very nice, what's -sä doing in se-mijom-käll-sä? It looks like the clause is relativised from "The fish (is?) intended for the child" - what would that look like by itself? I'm noticing there isn't a verb in the relative clause.KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:56 pm Have a complete sentence: se-peŋŋ se-kanjo se-mijom-käll-sä lowo ro-soo-nobuad "The fox ate the fish intended for the child"
And the gloss:
- se-
- ᴅᴇꜰ=
- peŋŋ
- fox{ᴀʙs}
- se-
- ᴅᴇꜰ=
- kanjo
- ʀᴇʟ.ᴀɴ-ᴀᴄᴄ
- se-
- ᴅᴇꜰ=
- mijom
- child-ᴅɪʀ
- -käll
- =ɢᴇɴ
- -sä
- =3
- lowo
- fish-ᴀᴄᴄ
- ro-
- ᴘꜰᴠ=
- soo-
- 3>3=
- nobuad
- eat-ᴘsᴛ
- KathTheDragon
- Posts: 780
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:57 am
- Location: Disunited Kingdom
Re: Yet-Unnamed Language Scratchpad
sä is one of the agreement clitics for predicates, it's there to mark the adverb as functioning predicatively. "The fish is intended for the child" looks like se-luow se-mijom-käll-sä with "fish" moved into the nominative.
-
- Posts: 1746
- Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:12 am
Re: Yet-Unnamed Language Scratchpad
The order of the relative clause is melting my brain a little, but in a good way.
I like this language, and I'm watching closely, even if I don't have much to contribute yet.
I like this language, and I'm watching closely, even if I don't have much to contribute yet.
I did it. I made the world's worst book review blog.
- KathTheDragon
- Posts: 780
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:57 am
- Location: Disunited Kingdom
Re: Yet-Unnamed Language Scratchpad
As far as I know, preposed relative clauses are actually pretty normal in head-final languages like this. Nonetheless, I'll probably do a Syntax and have preposed relative clauses only where they are "short". When they're "long" they'd be placed after, and have their head clefted out of the main clause.
- KathTheDragon
- Posts: 780
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:57 am
- Location: Disunited Kingdom
Re: Yet-Unnamed Language Scratchpad
Another clitic, tis, which marks motion/direction away with the lative and directive cases, and position off in the locative.
- wiekäälii
- wall-ʟᴏᴄ
- -tis
- =AB
"off the wall"
- wiekääles
- wall-ʟᴀᴛ
- -tis
- =AB
"(moving) away from the wall"
- wiegäälom
- wall-ᴅɪʀ
- -tis
- =AB
"(in the direction) away from the wall"
- Rounin Ryuuji
- Posts: 2994
- Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:47 pm
Re: Yet-Unnamed Language Scratchpad
Do you have complicated, messy naturalistic etymologies for any of this? I love it when an inflection or a lemma has a story to tell if we only know where to look.
Re: Yet-Unnamed Language Scratchpad
I really like this language, even though I don't have much to contribute myself.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
- KathTheDragon
- Posts: 780
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:57 am
- Location: Disunited Kingdom
Re: Yet-Unnamed Language Scratchpad
Etymologies yes, complicated and messy, not really. I haven't gone back very far at all, just deep enough to get the mutations I wanted.Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:01 pm Do you have complicated, messy naturalistic etymologies for any of this? I love it when an inflection or a lemma has a story to tell if we only know where to look.
- Rounin Ryuuji
- Posts: 2994
- Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:47 pm
Re: Yet-Unnamed Language Scratchpad
Oh, well. Maybe post a few (and also give the language a name)?
- KathTheDragon
- Posts: 780
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:57 am
- Location: Disunited Kingdom
Re: Yet-Unnamed Language Scratchpad
I hope this explains why I'll keep the etymologies to myself. As for a name, I'm working on it! I'm trying to think of a fitting etymology for it.KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:11 am I have half a mind to at some point derive some sisterlangs to this one and call it a reconstruction challenge.
- quinterbeck
- Posts: 385
- Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:19 pm
- Location: UK
Re: Yet-Unnamed Language Scratchpad
Are the loc/lat/dir cases inherently adverbial, or only adverbs when the clitics are affixed? Can the cases be used to modify nouns without being relativised?
- KathTheDragon
- Posts: 780
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:57 am
- Location: Disunited Kingdom
Re: Yet-Unnamed Language Scratchpad
Inherently adverbial, and they can't modify nouns directly. I'd already decided that when nouns are modified, all their clitics migrate to the first modifier,
se-ŋälbom-sää "into the room", se-sarfom-sää ŋälbom "into the red room". Using a word that's already hosting clitics as a modifier would conflict with this bit of syntax, so I don't want to allow it.
se-ŋälbom-sää "into the room", se-sarfom-sää ŋälbom "into the red room". Using a word that's already hosting clitics as a modifier would conflict with this bit of syntax, so I don't want to allow it.
Re: Yet-Unnamed Language Scratchpad
I was reading about Samic consonant gradation today, and it seemed quite neat - basically most medial consonants in Proto-Samic had two forms, short and geminate, but based on whether the next syllable was originally open or closed each of these had a weak and a strong form, resulting in four lengths. Note that these collapsed into three lengths in most Samic varieties aside from some dialects of Ume Sami. Also note that in present-day Sami varieties these original conditioning environments have been lost in many cases due to loss of final consonants.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
- KathTheDragon
- Posts: 780
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:57 am
- Location: Disunited Kingdom
Re: Yet-Unnamed Language Scratchpad
Oh, that's interesting! I didn't actually know any specifics about what triggered gradation in any Uralic language when I started this, so what I ended up doing probably isn't like any of them.
- KathTheDragon
- Posts: 780
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:57 am
- Location: Disunited Kingdom
Re: Yet-Unnamed Language Scratchpad
I've added a series of possessive pronoun clitics: kääj- "my, our", nääj- "your", sääj- "his/hers, theirs", iej- "its". They're all indifferent to number, and make their possessand definite (so they replace the definite clitic se-).
kääj-sarfo lowo nobuad-soo
- kääj-
- 1.POSS=
- sarfo
- red-ACC
- lowo
- fish-ACC
- nobuad
- eat-PST
- -soo
- =3>3
"He ate my red fish"