Loan words with more specific meanings after than before the borrowing

[Ares Land]

In French(*) you can't use thé for anything else than Camellia sinensis, and maybe rooibos.

Is that a natural distinction everyone makes, or is it something only those supposedly in the Know say? What about the term "infusion"?

No, it's really a natural, common distinction.

The CNRTL is an excellent resource BTW. But most usages listed are, as Rounin Ryuuji noted, dated (for instance maté is 'maté', certainly not 'thé des Indiens' in contemporary usage. Funnily I don't think it's a tisane either). I didn't know about Belgian usage though!

'Infusion' is more formal -- or technical.

Although I guess French speakers could reduce it to "la biblio", as you often do.

For software libraries, actually it's often reduced to 'la lib'. The most common abbreviation for the other kind of library is 'la bib' (at least from what I hear)

(I'm not sure how powerful the prescriptions of the Académie actually are, so I won't venture to guess whether or not this is a hypercorrection or a natural evolution).

A joke was doing the rounds on Twitter today: the Académie Française finally adopts cédérom for CD-ROM.

The Académie isn't terribly influential. In fact it's doubtful whether it's influential at all .

[Ryusenshi]

Although I guess French speakers could reduce it to "la biblio", as you often do.

I don't think I've heard biblio as a reduction of bibliothèque: for me it's a clipping of bibliographie (meaning either "a survey of the existing literature" or "a list of references"). The word bibliothèque (for an actual book collection) is either shortened to bib or not at all.

[Rounin Ryuuji]

In French(*) you can't use thé for anything else than Camellia sinensis, and maybe rooibos.

Is that a natural distinction everyone makes, or is it something only those supposedly in the Know say? What about the term "infusion"?

No, it's really a natural, common distinction.

I find this development quite interesting.

The CNRTL is an excellent resource BTW. But most usages listed are, as Rounin Ryuuji noted, dated (for instance maté is 'maté', certainly not 'thé des Indiens' in contemporary usage. Funnily I don't think it's a tisane either). I didn't know about Belgian usage though!

I had an idea it was reliable, but I'd never had the need to check. Thank you for the verification. I wish I hadn't let my French slip so — the entries are harder to read than they once were. I should really try to get back to reading in it — there are some books I've been meaning to visit, and they're most of them in the public domain.

(I'm not sure how powerful the prescriptions of the Académie actually are, so I won't venture to guess whether or not this is a hypercorrection or a natural evolution).

A joke was doing the rounds on Twitter today: the Académie Française finally adopts cédérom for CD-ROM.

The Académie isn't terribly influential. In fact it's doubtful whether it's influential at all .

That is a terrible prescription with a very un-French spelling. It ought to be cédéromme, at very least, since the final /ɔm/ seems quite unnasalised. Language societies these days — they simply don't prescribe nearly as elegantly or sensibly as they used to (please note sarcasm).

[Kuchigakatai]

No, it's really a natural, common distinction.

Ah, good to know.

For software libraries, actually it's often reduced to 'la lib'. The most common abbreviation for the other kind of library is 'la bib' (at least from what I hear)

No one really beats you guys, do they? What I do wonder is why in Spanish this kind of thing is so uncommon, especially in Latin America... People in Spain manage to live with boli (bolígrafo) and peli (película) at least. But where I'm from we really just say the four-syllable "película".

Language societies these days — they simply don't prescribe nearly as elegantly or sensibly as they used to (please note sarcasm).

I have never heard of the French or Italian academies outside of jokes (no, seriously, I NEVER have, except literally as targets of jokes), but the RAE in Spanish is a lot more serious and effective. I like the way Alkire & Rosen compare them in Romance Languages: A Historical Introduction (2010):

Among the learnèd societies that formed in the Renaissance to debate all manner of intellectual issues were some that focused on linguistic matters. In keeping with the authoritarian spirit that pervaded most of the next two centuries, one such group was designated as an official organ of language policy by Cardinal Richelieu. Known as the Académie Française (1634), its mission was “to exert absolute power...over literature and language” (Hall 1974:180). To that end it was charged with preparing an official dictionary and grammar. Remarques sur la langue françoise (1647), which fixed usage for the classic writers of the seventeenth century, was not the Academy’s grammar, but the work of one of its members, Claude Favre de Vaugelas. [...]

[...] Government intervention comes in 1572, when Cosimo dei Medici decides to convert a private literary discussion group into an official body, the Accademia della Crusca, charged with adjudicating matters of language. However, it was never a nationally sanctioned entity, and by the 1800s its authority had faded. [...]

[...] Felipe V officially recognized the Real Academia Española (1714), a purist and regulatory body modeled on its Italian and French counterparts, but quieter, less pretentious, and more productive (Hall 1974:181) — its dictionary appeared in 1726-1729.

I vaguely remember reading something about Claude Favre de Vaugelas getting in trouble with the other "immortals" of the French Academy due to single-handedly doing a much better job than they were...

The RAE being quieter, less pretentious and more productive was as true in the 18th century as it is today.

[Rounin Ryuuji]

From a cursory examination, I do think I most prefer the model of the RAE. I find prescription only a useful tool when it is based on sound descriptive evidence (mostly for teaching effective communication to audiences outside one's own dialect group, or instructions for the reconstruction of period-appropriate language for works of fiction), but inventing rules out of nowhere, or insisting on having one's way in small and insignificant matters (cf. less v. fewer, which have been more-or-less interchangeable for centuries) is really quite absurd, and certainly stifles creativity.

[Ares Land]

That is a terrible prescription with a very un-French spelling. It ought to be cédéromme, at very least, since the final /ɔm/ seems quite unnasalised. Language societies these days — they simply don't prescribe nearly as elegantly or sensibly as they used to (please note sarcasm).

There's really nothing right with the Académie prescription. (The worst thing being, it did catch on a bit back when CD-ROMs were a thing.)
We had cute words for RAM and ROM back when the distinction was more important than today, but sadly they passed away: mémoire vive et mémoire morte.

Generally, l'Office Québécois de la Langue Française does a much better job.

[Ryusenshi]

FR résumé "summary" → EN resume "summary of your work experience when looking for an employment"

[Ryusenshi]

EN cake → FR cake "fruitcake"

[RichardFromMarple]

FR Gateau "cake" → EN Gateau "soft moist cake with high cream content usually eaten with cutlery"

[Vijay]

In Malayalam, "touchings" has come to specifically mean 'spicy fried snacks eaten with hard liquor'.

[MacAnDàil]

FR Gateau "cake" → EN Gateau "soft moist cake with high cream content usually eaten with cutlery"

In a similar vein, the French Wikipedia describes 'pancake' as a kind of crêpe, while the English one describes 'crêpe' as a kind of pancake.

Also, the French meaning of 'geek' seems to be more specific than in English: 'geek' in English can be anyone very much into a specific hobby, but in French it seems to be focussing on video games (or perhaps a few other things).

[linguistcat]

Also, the French meaning of 'geek' seems to be more specific than in English: 'geek' in English can be anyone very much into a specific hobby, but in French it seems to be focussing on video games (or perhaps a few other things).

Similar to how "otaku" in Japanese can apply to almost any hobby (train otaku, etc), but in English it's someone into anime, video games or Japanese culture.

[Linguoboy]

I just reviewed meanings of xip in Catalan. It can mean a computer chip, a snack chip, or a chip shot in golf and other sports. But it can’t mean “chip” in its original sense of a small piece of something.

[Talskubilos]

The RAE being quieter, less pretentious and more productive was as true in the 18th century as it is today.

Unfortunately, with regard to Pre-Latin loanwords (as well as other problematic words), the etymologies given by the DRAE (Diccionario de la Real Academia Española) are mostly useless. In fact, and unlike their French or German counterparts, there're no reliable etymological Spanish dictionaries, because the most comprehensive one (Coromines-Pascual) was published in the 80's and it's largely outdated.

[Talskubilos]

I just reviewed meanings of xip in Catalan. It can mean a computer chip, a snack chip, or a chip shot in golf and other sports. But it can’t mean “chip” in its original sense of a small piece of something.

That's because there're other words with this meaning in Catalan, namely xic, mica, poc.

[Kuchigakatai]

The RAE being quieter, less pretentious and more productive was as true in the 18th century as it is today.

Unfortunately, with regard to Pre-Latin loanwords (as well as other problematic words), the etymologies given by the DRAE (Diccionario de la Real Academia Española) are mostly useless. In fact, and unlike their French or German counterparts, there're no reliable etymological Spanish dictionaries, because the most comprehensive one (Coromines-Pascual) was published in the 80's and it's largely outdated.

Hell, even for words coming from Latin, their etymologies are largely useless. Don't you love, too, all those words that just say "De orig. inc.", when Coromines & Pascual may even simply entertain two etyma from Latin?

Their work is better in terms of grammar and the inclusion of meanings of words, recently more so. Although I do dislike there is not a single citation to other works in the RAE's reference grammars.

Pre-Latin

Do linguists actually use this for the non-Indo-European (or even IE!) Latin substratum? I've always wondered how come Beekes (and presumably many others) uses "pre-Greek" for the non-Hellenic substratum of Greek, but most every one else seems to use the "pre-" prefix to mean "a previous stage of the language".

E.g. "pre-Spanish" in Romance linguistics means "a stage of Latin-Romance between Late Latin / common Romance and classic 13th-century Castilian". And "pre-PIE" means "internal reconstruction of specific things before what is properly called reconstructed PIE".

[Talskubilos]

Hell, even for words coming from Latin, their etymologies are largely useless. Don't you love, too, all those words that just say "De orig. inc.", when Coromines & Pascual may even simply entertain two etyma from Latin?

Anoher Spanish etymologist was Vicente García de Diego (1878-1978), whose work is less known than Coromines', although it inspired some of the DRAE etymologies, as he was a member of the RAE. For example, he was right in deriving Spanish colcha 'quilt' from Latin culcita 'matress, cushion', although not as a native word but a loanword from a Mozarabic dialect (e.g. corcho 'cork' from a masculine variant of Latin cortice(m) 'bark'). From this source it also comes Old French colte (modern coutil) 'feather bed', coilte 'printed duvet', in turn borrowed into English quilt.

However, Coromines thought the source was Old French colche (modern couche) 'bed; layer', a deverbal noun from colchier (modern coucher) 'to lay', ultimately from Latin collocāre 'to set'. Pretty bad.

[Kuchigakatai]

Anoher Spanish etymologist was Vicente García de Diego (1878-1978), whose work is less known than Coromines', although it inspired some of the DRAE etymologies, as he was a member of the RAE. For example, he was right in deriving Spanish colcha 'quilt' from Latin culcita 'matress, cushion', although not as a native word but a loanword from a Mozarabic dialect (e.g. corcho 'cork' from a masculine variant of Latin cortice(m) 'bark'). From this source it also comes Old French colte (modern coutil) 'feather bed', coilte 'printed duvet', in turn borrowed into English quilt.

However, Coromines thought the source was Old French colche (modern couche) 'bed; layer', a deverbal noun from colchier (modern coucher) 'to lay', ultimately from Latin collocāre 'to set'. Pretty bad.

That's pretty interesting, but why is Coromines & Pascual's etymology pretty bad? It looks pretty possible: I notice that in my dialect (El Salvador), colcha primarily refers to some kind of simple makeshift bed (and never 'quilt', we only use edredón for that), that colchón is primarily a matress, and that culcita > Mozarabic [ˈkoltʃa] seems slightly problematic phonetically although it's by all means possible (via [ˈkoltʃeta] surely, and cf. Sanctium > Spanish Sancho while sanctum > santo). There's also not much of a problem with colloc-am > colcha via French/Occitan, considering this kind of collusion of alveolar+velar produces alveolar+postalveolar quite often (monacum > Occitan monge, borrowed by Spanish as monje, and -āticum > French/Occitan -age, Old Spanish -adgo > modern -azgo, diem dominicum > French dimanche, and even corticem > corcho is an example of this).

Both proposals seem pretty good to me. Interestingly, the Trésor de la langue française doesn't mention any reason not to go for culcita regarding French la couche (the dictionary often mentions why it disprefers alternative etymologies). It wouldn't surprise me if it may have been considered little by etymologists due to culcita being a pretty uncommon word in surviving written Latin (pulvīnus, pulvīnar, cubīle, lectus, grabātus and the poetic torus are much more common for pillow/cushion or quilt/mattress/bed), i.e. as an omission.

[Rounin Ryuuji]

Both proposals seem pretty good to me. Interestingly, the Trésor de la langue française doesn't mention any reason not to go for culcita regarding French la couche (the dictionary often mentions why it disprefers alternative etymologies). It wouldn't surprise me if it may have been considered little by etymologists due to culcita being a pretty uncommon word in surviving written Latin (pulvīnus, pulvīnar, cubīle, lectus, grabātus and the poetic torus are much more common for pillow/cushion or quilt/mattress/bed), i.e. as an omission.

It's interesting to think how words we speak but don't often write will probably have descendants that are more commonly used (but also a fairly predictable outcome); I'm now amused with the thought of future people wondering the same things about future forms of English (Anglic?), which is sure to have a great degree of variation.

[Kuchigakatai]

It's interesting to think how words we speak but don't often write will probably have descendants that are more commonly used (but also a fairly predictable outcome); I'm now amused with the thought of future people wondering the same things about future forms of English (Anglic?), which is sure to have a great degree of variation.

Yeah... It really disturbs me how in the entire pre-Classical and Classical Latin literary corpus (not counting inscriptions/tablets/graffiti), as collected in PHI Latin Texts (which has... close to all of it), the word panticēs 'belly' is only attested six times, all of them in vulgar texts:
- once in a popular comedy
- once in a fragment of a popular comedian preserved inside a grammatical discussion from centuries later
- twice in the anonymous, but Classical, poems that somehow came attached at the end of the work of the major national poet
- once in a collection of very rude and violent poetry
- once in a pretty vulgar poet (the one we particularly thank for the preservation of sexual and other indecent vocabulary)

And yet it's perfectly in use as a colloquial word all over the place today, in Portuguese/Spanish (pança/panza, as in Sancho Panza), French (panse), Italian (pancia, pancetta) and even freaking Dalmatian (panzaita, note: now extinct) and Romanian (pântece).

Meanwhile, from among the synonyms venter, alvus and the poetic īlia, which are so much more common in writing... only venter survives (Spanish vientre, Dalmatian viantro, Romanian vintre).