Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
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Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
I like this kind of hypotheticals
In 200 BC a group of Germanic peoples roughly equal to population of Magna Germania are teleported to Japan. They quickly subjugate both the Jomon and Yayoi people, assimilate 0% Asian them and as a result they gain some 20-30% Asian DNA. Language is unaffected.
What interesting directions could Proto Germanic take in such a scenario? The Germanic Japan will be culturally influenced by China and will not even know of Europe for good 1700 years in the best case.
Could this Japanese Germanic language borrow areal features like classifiers, limited number of syllabes etc
In 200 BC a group of Germanic peoples roughly equal to population of Magna Germania are teleported to Japan. They quickly subjugate both the Jomon and Yayoi people, assimilate 0% Asian them and as a result they gain some 20-30% Asian DNA. Language is unaffected.
What interesting directions could Proto Germanic take in such a scenario? The Germanic Japan will be culturally influenced by China and will not even know of Europe for good 1700 years in the best case.
Could this Japanese Germanic language borrow areal features like classifiers, limited number of syllabes etc
Re: Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
Some time ago a similar scenario was discussed on this board, but with Latin instead of Proto Germanic. Rather unfortunately, I cannot find it, but the gist is that it all depends on population size - a Roman legion teleported to the Japanese archipelago roughly 0 AD is for a brief time very influential, but after three or four generation leaves little more than some toponyms and personal names, in terms of linguistic heritage.
/j/ <j>
Ɂaləɂahina asəkipaɂə ileku omkiroro salka.
Loɂ ɂerleku asəɂulŋusikraɂə seləɂahina əɂətlahɂun əiŋɂiɂŋa.
Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ.
Ɂaləɂahina asəkipaɂə ileku omkiroro salka.
Loɂ ɂerleku asəɂulŋusikraɂə seləɂahina əɂətlahɂun əiŋɂiɂŋa.
Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ.
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Re: Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
Not this forum it was CBB and it was my thread
In my Germanic scenerio Germanics would outnumber native Japanese population 3 to 1 and would conquer the island very quickly. The native Yayoi and Jomon would not even leave a linguistic mark
But there is a question - will prolonged contact with Chinese change the language in other eays than by borrowing?
In my Germanic scenerio Germanics would outnumber native Japanese population 3 to 1 and would conquer the island very quickly. The native Yayoi and Jomon would not even leave a linguistic mark
But there is a question - will prolonged contact with Chinese change the language in other eays than by borrowing?
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Re: Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
Probably about as much as it did on Japanese and Korean, though I don't know why you wouldn't want a substratum, too.
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Re: Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
Note, this is a conworlding idea and I'm going to move it to Conlangery.
Re: Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
If the Jomon and Yayoi are outnumbered but not exterminated, why would they not leave so much as a mark? (I could buy it if you said they don't leave a massive mark, but none at all?)Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:29 pmIn my Germanic scenerio Germanics would outnumber native Japanese population 3 to 1 and would conquer the island very quickly. The native Yayoi and Jomon would not even leave a linguistic mark
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Re: Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
A slight mark may as well be
Re: Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
Consider the United States - European settlers and their slaves far outnumbered the native population, which was decimated by disease and driven onto reservations, yet you can find many placenames (e.g. here in Wisconsin) which are clearly of native origin.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
Or just England, where even multiple waves (Saxons, Jutes, Normans, Romans, etc) didn't erase all of the native influence.....I think Dr. McWhorter (in What language is - and what language isn't) mentions the Celtic/Welsh "periphrasic "do", that Germanic (and I assume French) don't do.Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:31 pm Consider the United States - European settlers and their slaves far outnumbered the native population, which was decimated by disease and driven onto reservations, yet you can find many placenames (e.g. here in Wisconsin) which are clearly of native origin.
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Re: Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
Honestly, not to be overly critical, but I feel that if the preceding inhabitants don't leave much of a linguistic mark it's afar less interesting scenario. I think a primarily Germanic Shikoku adjacent to a Yamato dominated Honshuu could be extremely interesting, then you'd get Sinitic + Japonic + possibly other influences.
Ye knowe eek that, in forme of speche is chaunge
With-inne a thousand yeer, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem; and yet they spake hem so,
And spedde as wel in love as men now do.
(formerly Max1461)
With-inne a thousand yeer, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem; and yet they spake hem so,
And spedde as wel in love as men now do.
(formerly Max1461)
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Re: Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
That would, indeed, be very interesting. You could also have Germanic Kyuushuu, if you would rather. Japonic is such an interesting thing I shouldn't like to see it erased, but I have my very obvious biases.
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Re: Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
I wonder whether there could be a Portuguese or Dutch settlement in Japan before 1600 with the language surviving until the present day?
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Re: Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
That's also a possibility.
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Re: Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
That's a very real possibility, if history had gone a bit differently. I... might actually have to explore that as an alt-history set upOtto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:37 pm I wonder whether there could be a Portuguese or Dutch settlement in Japan before 1600 with the language surviving until the present day?
Ye knowe eek that, in forme of speche is chaunge
With-inne a thousand yeer, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem; and yet they spake hem so,
And spedde as wel in love as men now do.
(formerly Max1461)
With-inne a thousand yeer, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem; and yet they spake hem so,
And spedde as wel in love as men now do.
(formerly Max1461)
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Re: Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
Is 400 years enough for serious linguistic chnge?dɮ the phoneme wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:03 pmT being hat's a very real possibility, if history had gone a bit beinngdifferently. I... might actually have to explore that as an alt-history set upOtto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:37 pm I wonder whether there could be a Portuguese or Dutch settlement in Japan before 1600 with the language surviving until the present day?
If you want IE population in Japan, work with an idea of Greek speaking Jews being expelled from Rome and ending up in Japan
Re: Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
Look at Afrikaans or many a creole language.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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Re: Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
Persia and India say hi.Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:09 amIs 400 years enough for serious linguistic chnge?dɮ the phoneme wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:03 pmT being hat's a very real possibility, if history had gone a bit beinngdifferently. I... might actually have to explore that as an alt-history set upOtto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:37 pm I wonder whether there could be a Portuguese or Dutch settlement in Japan before 1600 with the language surviving until the present day?
If you want IE population in Japan, work with an idea of Greek speaking Jews being expelled from Rome and ending up in Japan
Edit: Potential for a large Zoroastrian population fleeing Islamic conquests would certainly exist, I think.
Re: Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
Could the Christians have preserved a working knowledge of Latin? It seems that they didn't.dɮ the phoneme wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:03 pmThat's a very real possibility, if history had gone a bit differently. I... might actually have to explore that as an alt-history set upOtto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:37 pm I wonder whether there could be a Portuguese or Dutch settlement in Japan before 1600 with the language surviving until the present day?
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Re: Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
Why not? Jews maintained knowledge of Hebrew for millenia.
Re: Proto Germanic ISOT to Japan 200 BC
English suggests it is.Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:09 amIs 400 years enough for serious linguistic chnge?dɮ the phoneme wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:03 pmT being hat's a very real possibility, if history had gone a bit beinngdifferently. I... might actually have to explore that as an alt-history set upOtto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:37 pm I wonder whether there could be a Portuguese or Dutch settlement in Japan before 1600 with the language surviving until the present day?
wait...whats the yardstick for serious ?
then why not just use (Crassus?) and his soldiers being shuttled about until they end up in Japan? (didn't they reportedly end up in China as it was?)If you want IE population in Japan, work with an idea of Greek speaking Jews being expelled from Rome and ending up in Japan
or use Tocharian.