Re: Vardelm's Scratchpad (NP: Devani OVS order)

[Vardelm]

Wait, is it the class suffix that changes in form, or can it (also) be the possessive suffix itself?

Kind of both, I guess? It's a matter of how vowels get combined when they come into contact with each other via affixation. For example, I have a class suffix -geo, which changes to -giu when a -i suffix is added (I-mutation in the post above).

[bradrn]

Here, smell this and tell me if it's rotten....

I'm working on adjective forms for my Yokai classes. The basic noun formation is:

Stem		Class Suffix		Noun
yoka-	+	-shi	=	yokashi (Yokai woman)

I have a possessive form that adds a -ul suffix, which can modify the vowel of the class suffix a bit.

Noun		Possessive Suffix		Possessive Form/Case
yokashi	+	-ul	=	yokashiol

No problems with this. (Though in your example it looks like it’s the possessive suffix rather than the class suffix which gets the vowel mutation.)

What I'm considering is an adjective form that infixes -ur- into the class suffix.

Noun		Adjectival Suffix		Adjective Form
yokashi	+	-ur-	=	yokashuri

An alternate idea is to suffix -r plus the same vowel that is used in the plural noun form.

Noun		Adjectival Suffix		Adjective Form
yokashi	+	-ri / -re / -ra / -ro / -ru	=	yokashiro

Both of these look perfectly normal and absolutely fine.

[Vardelm]

No problems with this. (Though in your example it looks like it’s the possessive suffix rather than the class suffix which gets the vowel mutation.)

Perhaps a better example is this one:

Noun		Possessive Suffix		Possessive Form/Case
yokageo	+	-ul	=	yokagiul

Both of these look perfectly normal and absolutely fine.

So it doesn't strike you as odd that the -shi class suffix gets broken up? Maybe I'm just overthinking that aspect and a suffix - once attached to a word - is just part of the word. An infix that comes along later works in the same way regardless of whether the word is a root or a term derived with an affix.

[bradrn]

Maybe I'm just overthinking that aspect and a suffix - once attached to a word - is just part of the word. An infix that comes along later works in the same way regardless of whether the word is a root or a term derived with an affix.

This was my impression when I wrote that post, but I just tried to find an example of an infix interrupting another affix, and I couldn’t find anything. I’m not sure what to think about this now.

[Vardelm]

This was my impression when I wrote that post, but I just tried to find an example of an infix interrupting another affix, and I couldn’t find anything. I’m not sure what to think about this now.

OK, at least I'm not crazy to be skeptical about it!

[Vardelm]

This was my impression when I wrote that post, but I just tried to find an example of an infix interrupting another affix, and I couldn’t find anything. I’m not sure what to think about this now.

I ended up going with option #2 for this reason. So with that settled (for now) plus a bit more work, I have something looks like a complete set of concords.


Yokai Concords

Yet another iteration of the noun class system. This includes case forms, etc., so it's pretty close to what I envisioned for this lang. I should be able to start producing sentences & writing up syntax soon.

I re-ordered the classes a bit, so the class numbers here don't correspond to the other tables I've done here so far, but otherwise they're the same.

The forms at the top of a cell are singular, the bottom plural. I have inflected the stem yoka- in all of the cells for convenience, even though that (probably?) wouldn't actually happen.



Yokai Concords

#	Description	Direct (class affixes)	Possessive -ul	Genitive -i	Adjective -ri,-re,-ra,-ro,-ru	Verbal +a
01	low-caste women aquatic wildlife	-inu yokainu lu- -ne luyokane	-inul yokainul lu- -neol luyokaneol	-inui yokainui lu- -nei luyokanei	-inure yokainure	-no yokano
02	women birds	-shi yokashi wu- -sho wuyokasho	-shiol yokashiul wu- -shol wuyokashol	-shi yokashi wu- -shui wuyokashui	-shiro yokashiro	-she yokashe
03	leaders, elders reptiles	-(g)eo yokageo o(k)- -(g)i oyokagi	-(g)iul yokagiul o(k)- -giul oyokagiul	-(g)iu yokagiu o(k)- -gi oyokagi	-(g)eori yokageori	-(g)a yokaga
04	men furred animals, crawling insects	-sha yokasha dai- -shu daiyokashu	-shaol yokashaol dai- -shul daiyokashul	-shai yokashai dai- -shui daiyokashui	-sharu yokasharu	-sha yokasha
05	low-caste men shelled, flying insects	-oni yokaoni ai(n)- -na aiyokana	-oniul yokaoniul ai(n)- -anaol aiyokanaol	-oni yokaoni ai(n)- -anai aiyokanai	-onira yokaonira	-ne yokane
#	Description	Direct	Possessive	Genitive	Adjective	Verbal
06	fruit, aquatic plants oceans, lakes, rivers	-xun yokaxun lu- -xun luyokaxun	-xunul yokaxunul lu- -xunul luyokaxunul	-xuni yokaxuni lu- -xuni luyokaxuni	-xunre yokaxunre	-xon yokaxon
07	deciduous plants forests	-zen yokazen wu- -zen wuyokazen	-zenul yokazenul wu- -zenul wuyokazenul	-zeni yokazeni wu- -zeni wuyokazeni	-zenro yokazenro	-zan yokazan
08	flowers, seeds, leaves deserts, volcanoes, sky, heavens	-xio yokaxio o(k)- -xi oyokax	-xul yokaxul o(k)- -xiul oyokaxiul	-xiu yokaxiu o(k)- -xi oyokaxi	-xiori yokaxiori	-xa yokaxa
09	grasses, mushrooms, vegetables mountains, hills, plains, caves	-da yokada dai- -du daiyokadu	-daol yokadaol dai- -dul daiyokadul	-dai yokadai dai- -dui daiyokadui	-daru yokadaru	-da yokada
10	pines, cactus, pinecones, nuts glaciers, tundra, grave	-dai yokadai ai(n)- -da aiyokada	-dul yokadul ai(n)- -daol aiyokadaol	-dei yokadei ai(n)- -dai aiyokadai	-daira yokadaira	-de yokade
#	Description	Direct	Possessive	Genitive	Adjective	Verbal
11	hollow objects, containers, & flexible objecs	-biu yokabiu lu- -be luyokabe	-bul yokabul lu- -beol luyokabeol	--bi yokabi lu- -bei luyokabei	-biure yokabiure	-beo yokabeo
12	small objects	-bue yokabue wu- -bo wuyokabo	-buil yokabuil wu- -bul wuyokabul	-bi yokabi wu- -bui wuyokabui	-buero yokabuero	-ba yokaba
13	insubstantial objects, man-made, & random-shaped objects	-tsong yokatsong o(k)- -tsong oyokatsong	-tsongul yokatsongul o(k)- -tsongul oyokatsongul	-tsongi yokatsongi o(k)- -tsongi oyokatsongi	-tsongri yokatsongri	-tsang yokatsang
14	large objects, structures	-oma yokaoma dai- -mu daiyokamu	-maol yokamaol dai- -u daiyokomul	-mai yokamai dai- -mui daiyokamui	-omaru yokaomaru	-oma yokaoma
15	tools, hard objects	-tsing yokatsing ai(n)- -tsing aiyokatsing	-tsingul yokatsingul ai(n)- -tsingul aiyokatsingul	-tsingi yokatsingi ai(n)- -tsingi aiyokatsingi	-tsingra yokatsingra	-tseng yokatseng
#	Description	Direct	Possessive	Genitive	Adjective	Verbal
16	events, time	-fu yokafu lu- -fe luyokafe	-ful yokaful lu- -fiul luyokafiul	-fui yokafui lu- -fei luyokafei	-fure yokafure	-fo yokafo
17	states, qualities	-i yokai wu- -o woyoko	-ul yokul wu- -ul woyokul	-ei yokei wu- -ui woyokui	-iro yokairo	--i yoke
18	ideas, concepts, emotions	-nko yokanko o(k)- -i oyokanki	-nkul yokankul o(k)- -i oyokankiul	-nkui yokankui o(k)- -i oyokanki	-nkora yokankora	-nka yokanka
19	actions	-jia yokajia dai- -ju daiyokaju	-jul yokajul dai- -jul daiyokajul	-jie yokajie dai- -jui daiyokajui	-jiaru yokajiaru	-ja yokaja
20	death, darkness	-(i)n yokan ai(n)- -(i)n aiyokana	-(i)nul yokanul ai(n)- -(i)nul aiyokanul	-(i)ni yokani ai(n)- -(i)ni aiyokani	-(i)nra yokanra	-(i)na yokana
#	Description	Direct	Possessive	Genitive	Adjective	Verbal
21	liquids, food	-fu yokafu	-ful yokaful	-fui yokafui	-fure yokafure	-fo yokafo
22	plant matter	-i yokai	-ul yokul	-ei yokei	-iro yokairo	-i yoke
23	coals, cinders, lava, smoke, flesh/meat	-nko yokanko	-nkul yokankul	-nkui yokankui	-nkora yokankora	-nka yokanka
24	rock, stone, sand, dirt	-jia yokajia	-jul yokajul	-jie yokajie	-jiaru yokajiaru	-ja yokaja
25	metal, shell, crystal, ice	-(i)n yokan	-(i)nul yokanul	-(i)ni yokani	-(i)nra yokanra	-(i)na yokana

EDIT: Changed the descriptions in classes 21-25 since I had just copied them from the rows for classes 16-20.

[Vardelm]

Huzzah! I've been looking forward to being able to write this post for the past several months! Hopefully it's a bit more interesting than posting noun-class tables over & over.


Yokai Basic Syntax

tonglaosha dzulasha. tonglao-sha tiger-C04 dzula-sha slept-C04 The tiger slept.

daijioni dzulane. daiji-oni guard-C05 dzula-ne slept-C05 The guard slept.

Notes:

• Intransitive word order is SV.
• In case it's not obvious, C04 and C05 are "noun class 4" and "noun class 5". Not sure if there's a better way to note class in glosses.
• The verb has to take the verbal suffix from the subject's noun class.
• Verbs are - by default - perfective in aspect & active in voice.

guedomai siobe daijioni khuzhane. guedo-ma-i palace-C14-GEN siobe outside daiji-oni guard-C05 khuzhan-e stood-C05 The guard outside the palace stood.

daijioni guedomai siobe khuzhane. daiji-oni guard-C05 guedo-ma-i palace-C14-GEN siobe outside khuzhan-e stood-C05 The guard stood outside the palace.

daijioni khuzhane guedomai siobe. daiji-oni guard-C05 khuzhan-e stood-C05 guedo-ma-i palace-C14-GEN siobe outside The guard stood outside the palace.

Notes:

• Yokai uses postpositions.
• A postposition's object noun is required to be in the genitive case (which has additional, attributive uses shown below).
• A postpositional, adjunct phrase that qualifies a noun (the guard (that is) outside the palace) precedes the head noun. Its concord does not need to agree with the head noun.
• Adjunct phrases that qualify a sentence as a whole can appear just before or just after the verb phrase. I'll probably allow it at the beginning of a sentence as well.

jenangshiol daijioni khuzhane guedomai siobe. jenang-shi-ol queen-C02-POS daiji-oni guard-C05 khuzhan-e stood-C05 guedo-ma-i palace-C14-GEN siobe outside The queen's guard stood outside the palace.

Notes:

• The possessive is used for ownership of another noun.
• The possessive noun precedes the head noun and does not need to agree with its concord since it refers to another person/place/thing.

cuedoni daijioni khuzhane guedomai siobe. cuedo-ni stone-GEN daiji-oni guard-C05 khuzhan-e stood-C05 guedo-ma-i palace-C14-GEN siobe outside The stone guard stood outside the palace.

cuedonira daijioni khuzhane guedomai siobe. cuedo-nira stone-ADJ daiji-oni guard-C05 khuzhan-e stood-C05 guedo-ma-i palace-C14-GEN siobe outside The stoney guard stood outside the palace.

Notes:

• The genitive and adjectival forms are both used to describe a head noun, and both precede that head noun when uses this way.
• The genitive is not used for ownership, but rather what something is made of or used for. Other relationships may be added as I develop the language further.
• The adjectival is more abstract than the genitive. Think English suffixes -(e)y, -ish, or -like. It describes a quality rather than consitution.
• In the examples above, the first might probably refer to a stone statue of a guard outside the palace, but could refer to the guard being so still he's made of stone. The second would make that same comparison for a guard, but wouldn't have the possible meaning of being literal stone.
• I'm not sure "genitive" and "adjectival" are the best terms here. Suggestions welcome.

[masako]

Hopefully it's a bit more interesting than...

I read every single addition to this thread.

For me, it's an amazing conlang, as well as a comparative grammar course.

[Vardelm]

I read every single addition to this thread.

For me, it's an amazing conlang, as well as a comparative grammar course.

That's high praise and VERY kind of you! Thank you.

[bradrn]

• I'm not sure "genitive" and "adjectival" are the best terms here. Suggestions welcome.

‘Associative’ and ‘similative’, perhaps?

[Vardelm]

‘Associative’ and ‘similative’, perhaps?

I kind of like 'similative'. I looked that up on the Wikipedia noun case page and that could work well, or maybe 'semblative' that they also mention there. Perhaps 'genitive' and 'similative' would work. #mullingItOver

[bradrn]

‘Associative’ and ‘similative’, perhaps?

I kind of like 'similative'. I looked that up on the Wikipedia noun case page and that could work well, or maybe 'semblative' that they also mention there. Perhaps 'genitive' and 'similative' would work. #mullingItOver

I dislike the idea of using ‘genitive’ for -ni, since that marker doesn’t seem to cover possession. I suggested ‘associative’ as it seems to be a fairly common name for a general relationship marker (see e.g. Gil’s comments on the Hokkien associative).

[Vardelm]

I dislike the idea of using ‘genitive’ for -ni, since that marker doesn’t seem to cover possession. I suggested ‘associative’ as it seems to be a fairly common name for a general relationship marker (see e.g. Gil’s comments on the Hokkien associative).

Fair enough, although the Wikipedia page on the genitive case lists the same Hokkien marker ê as 'genitive'. Granted, that's Wikipedia, so I'll maybe look to see if 'genitive' is used with Hokkien anywhere else. Still, associative does seem like a good option. I was only familiar with its use in Japanese & Hungarian.

[bradrn]

Fair enough, although the Wikipedia page on the genitive case lists the same Hokkien marker ê as 'genitive'. Granted, that's Wikipedia, so I'll maybe look to see if 'genitive' is used with Hokkien anywhere else.

Yes, that’s because Hokkien ê really does have a possessive usage. Also, that marker is ambiguous enough that you can analyse it in a few different ways. (e.g. Chen’s grammar analyses it as two separate markers, presumably based on the writing system: a genitive e² 其 and a classifier e² 個. Gil’s essay is in part an argument against this analysis — not a very convincing one, in my opinion, but good enough as an example of an ‘associative’ category.)

Still, associative does seem like a good option. I was only familiar with its use in Japanese & Hungarian.

I hadn’t heard of that usage — I’m only familiar with that term used in the sense of a general relationship marker, broader than a genitive.

[Vardelm]

I hadn’t heard of that usage — I’m only familiar with that term used in the sense of a general relationship marker, broader than a genitive.

My over-reliance on Wikipedia is showing.

I thought I had a Hokkien grammar (by Hilary Chappell) that used the "genitive" term, but I saw she was using that to distinguish from attributives, which is what we're talking about here.

[Vardelm]

This morning I'm liking 'associative' more & more. I found a paper - Associative and Possessive Constructions in Oceanic - which talks about the non-possessive aspects of an 'associative' marker. With these examples from Oceanic languages plus Hokkien, it seems like maybe in the SE Asia, Indonesia, and Pacific Islands region there are languages that tend to treat association & possession separately. (True, I'm basing this on scant evidence.) Since I'm taking a lot of inspiration for Yokai from this part of the world, it feels like a good match.

I'm waffling between similative & semblative, even though I know the difference is insanely trivial. 'Similative' has the benefit that it seems to be used more commonly as a noun case term. On the other hand, 'semblative' just sounds better to me: not sure why. In addition to Wagiman, I've seen it used with Chuvash, Evenki, and Awa Pit, as well as a number of places where 'semblative constructions' are described. Something about its connotation with 'semblance' seems like it's closer to what I'm trying to describe than mere 'similarity'.

This internal debate over infinitesimal details is the madness of conlanging.

[bradrn]

This morning I'm liking 'associative' more & more. I found a paper - Associative and Possessive Constructions in Oceanic - which talks about the non-possessive aspects of an 'associative' marker.

Ooh, thank you! I’ve been looking for an article about this topic for quite a while now. (Despite knowing the term ‘associative’, I still have very little idea exactly what sort of relationships the term covers.)

I'm waffling between similative & semblative, even though I know the difference is insanely trivial. 'Similative' has the benefit that it seems to be used more commonly as a noun case term. On the other hand, 'semblative' just sounds better to me: not sure why. In addition to Wagiman, I've seen it used with Chuvash, Evenki, and Awa Pit, as well as a number of places where 'semblative constructions' are described. Something about its connotation with 'semblance' seems like it's closer to what I'm trying to describe than mere 'similarity'.

I like ‘similative’ personally, mostly because it sounds like ‘simile’ — i.e. it denotes that one thing is like another thing.

This internal debate over infinitesimal details is the madness of conlanging.

Just you wait until you see what natlang linguists get up to!

(And if this bothers you I advise you particularly to stay away from the literature on SVCs, which is mostly an endless sequence of, ‘Here’s what an SVC is!’ ‘No, this is how you define an SVC!’ ‘Here’s six types of SVC!’ ‘No, here’s four types of SVC!’ ‘English has no SVCs!’ ‘Oh yes it does!’ ‘SVCs aren’t real, I’ll call them “multiverb constructions” instead!’. I may be scarred for life by now…)

[Vardelm]

I like ‘similative’ personally, mostly because it sounds like ‘simile’ — i.e. it denotes that one thing is like another thing.

I'm at a similar position since 'semblative' sounds like 'resemble' or 'semblance'.

(And if this bothers you I advise you particularly to stay away from the literature on SVCs, which is mostly an endless sequence of, ‘Here’s what an SVC is!’ ‘No, this is how you define an SVC!’ ‘Here’s six types of SVC!’ ‘No, here’s four types of SVC!’ ‘English has no SVCs!’ ‘Oh yes it does!’ ‘SVCs aren’t real, I’ll call them “multiverb constructions” instead!’. I may be scarred for life by now…)

Yeah, I've had a hint of that earlier in this thread!

[Vardelm]

I thought of 1 complicating factor for the semblative/similative label while running errands this morning. This adjectival form is also going to form participles. While the default verb form - which is perfective - will use the "verbal" concord, the imperfective/progressive/continuative will be form with a periphrastic construction verb-ADJECTIVE + the verb "to be".

Using a temporary "to be" verb to illustrate:

tonglaosha dzulasha. tonglao-sha tiger-C04 dzula-sha slept-C04 The tiger slept.

tonglaosha dzulasharu indusha. tonglao-sha tiger-C04 dzula-sha-ru sleeping-C04 indu-sha is-C04 The tiger is sleeping.

dzulasharu tonglaosha... dzula-sha-ru sleeping-C04 tonglao-sha tiger-C04 The sleeping tiger...

-------------------------

Meanwhile, I also need to keep the possessive and genitive/associative cases in mind for my postpositions because I want most or all of them to be relational nouns. More specifically, I want them to mostly be body parts. I think I may use something like the following examples, which would allow for a nice little distinction between locative adjuncts and adverbial phrases.

daijioni dzulane tiaodzutsongi lumaoni. daiji-oni guard-C05 dzula-ne slept-C05 tiaodzu-tsong-i statue-C13-ASC luma-on-i face-C05-ASC The guard slept in front of the statue.

daijioni dzulane tiaodzutsongi lumaonira. daiji-oni guard-C05 dzula-ne slept-C05 tiaodzu-tsong-i statue-C13-ASC luma-oni-ra face-C05-ADJ The guard slept facing the statue.

Notes:

• I'm using ASC for "associative" because I am NOT going to use ASS.
• In the 1st example, I'm not sure whether I want face-ASC to use the concord of the statue (13) or the guard (05).
• I'm trying to work out how this might have developed. I think the possessive may have come from a locative, and the associative from a genitive. The locative may have been used for alienable possession, and the genitive inalienable. Not sure yet.

[Vardelm]

I think I have something worked out for the locative > possessive and genitive > attributive.


Phase 1

• Locative = at, alienable possession
  • The locative took on possessive meanings, which developed into alienable possession
• Genitive = inalienable possession, attributive
  • The genitive was standard fair: it had its attributive (composition, etc.) and possessive uses; came to be inalienable possession as the locative gained alienable possessive meanings

queen-GEN face the queen’s face (inalienable) queen-LOC statue (alienable) the queen’s statue statue-GEN face-LOC at the face of the statue in front of the statue

Phase 2

• Adjunct phrases start to use the genitive as an attributive linker instead of using the locative
• Locative loses locative “at” meaning, becomes just alienable possession

queen-GEN face the queen’s face (inalienable) queen-LOC statue the queen’s statue (alienable) statue-GEN face-GEN of the face of the statue in front of the statue

Phase 3

• Locative becomes the sole case used for possessives: both inalienable and alienable (becomes the possessive case)
• Genitive is no longer used as possession, but stays as requirement for adjuncts since it is viewed as just for attributives (becomes the associative case)

queen-LOC face the queen’s face queen-LOC statue the queen’s statue statue-GEN face-GEN of the face of the statue in front of the statue