How to most effectively study a language on your own?

[dɮ the phoneme]

Well, I've been out of school for over a year now, and it's become very apparent to me that I have no idea how to study a language effectively without the aid of a formal classroom environment. I've tried flashcards (both physical and digital), textbooks, and so on, but nothing seems to click. My university had optional "conversation classes" for language past the introductory level, which basically consisted of guided discussions in the target language by a native speaker, and I honestly think this is where 80% of my Japanese ability came from. It's much easier to remember vocabulary and grammar when you're actually using them in conversation on a consistent basis, instead of just seeing them in a textbook and trying to memorize them by rote. Now that I don't have that in-person speaking and listening practice, my abilities have dropped dramatically across the board.

However, there are people here who seem to have been studying languages on their own for many years, and who (if the language practice thread is anything to go by) have become very capable speakers. So I'd like to find out what their secret is. What has been most effective for you in studying languages on your own, without an associated community of learners (or native speakers) to practice with?

I'm also curious how people study dead languages, where they wouldn't really get any speaking practice to begin with. I took a long hiatus from my attempts to learn Sanskrit for basically the reasons stated above, but I'd like to pick it up again, hopefully with better methodology this time.

[Vijay]

I've ended up using a fellow ZBBer's advice (not originally intended for language learning in particular but still seems to apply; not sure whether the ZBBer in question wants to be acknowledged by name): "Read. Read a lot. Then read some more."

[dɮ the phoneme]

I've ended up using a fellow ZBBer's advice (not originally intended for language learning in particular but still seems to apply; not sure whether the ZBBer in question wants to be acknowledged by name): "Read. Read a lot. Then read some more."

This is probably good advice, but unfortunately I'm not at the level in either language where extensive reading is really feasible (regarding Japanese: when I left university I probably knew 800-ish kanji, now I probably *remember* like... half that. Regarding Sanskrit: I'm way not there yet).

But yeah, my best idea so far w.r.t. Japanese has basically been to speedrun recognition of enough kanji that I can do extensive reading, and then start that. It's that first step that's trouble, though.

[Vijay]

Maybe you can find other conversation/practice groups? And/or you could join forums in Japanese (and either in Sanskrit or for people interested in it?) or find groups on places like Facebook, Discord, or maybe even Twitter.

FWIW, my ideal way of studying through reading is by gradually increasing the difficulty of what I'm reading. For Malayalam in particular, I started out just learning how to read and write (this happened long before I relearned how to speak but after I forgot how to), maybe learned a few words from school textbooks, then moved on to comics, then really simple short stories with lots of pictures, then slightly more difficult ones (still with lots of pictures), then harder ones with no pictures at all, and finally novels. (In reality, it was somewhat more complicated than this; for example, I started reading poetry fairly early on, and my mom actually read out one of those short stories to me for bedtime (when I was very little) long before I made any deliberate effort to learn Malayalam).

For Malayalam in particular, I also just pester my dad with lots of questions. At one point, I briefly attempted simultaneous translation; I'd be watching TV, listening to whatever was on, and try to write down my translation of what I heard into Malayalam as quickly as possible (while using as few English loanwords as possible). I think that helped, too.

For other languages, so far, I've just been reading whatever resources (textbooks, language-learning websites, YouTube videos, wordlists, even research papers sometimes) I can get my hands on.

[zompist]

I have some general advice here (see the How-To section). Some updates for this, the world of tomorrow:

* There's videos out there in your target language. Yes, even Sanskrit.
* Maybe make a conlang that's based on the language.

Sanskrit is a tall order. If I were going deeper into it, I'd pick a book I really like and have in English— something like Dandin, or Somadeva, or one of the Sanskrit plays. Then work through it, knowing that it will be painful at first. (The traditional first choice is the Hitopadesha, but I found that less engaging.)

Or you could take a longer route. I expect Sanskrit would be far easier if you already know Greek, and Greek would be easier to learn.

[Linguoboy]

I've ended up using a fellow ZBBer's advice (not originally intended for language learning in particular but still seems to apply; not sure whether the ZBBer in question wants to be acknowledged by name): "Read. Read a lot. Then read some more."

That sounds like the sort of thing I would say!

As zompist has pointed out before, perhaps the biggest challenges in gaining proficiency in a language is acquiring vocabulary. Reading is one of the best ways to do this because it gives you context and the opportunity to reread and look up words. I find listening more difficult in this respect because if you can't parse what someone is saying for whatever reasons, you're simply screwed (unless you happen to know a more fluent speaker who's willing to listen to the same clip and help you out). There is a fair amount of captioned content available online and elsewhere, so this can be a big help, but a lot of it is paywalled and I don't know what your budget is like.

As for conversational practice, you can also find this online, for free and for pay. Duolingo, for instance, encourages users to share information amount regular online and in-person meetups. I recently found a weekly Zoom for practicing Irish this way. The pandemic has led to an explosion of content online. A Spanish teacher I know was recently trying to recruit me for his evening advanced conversation classes but I didn't think I could spare the time.

Speaking of Duolingo, have you ever used an app or subscription software? Their quality is all over the map. Duolingo, for instance, is basically a game which uses language rather than a serious language-studying programme, but it's better than nothing at all. LingoDeer is a step up because it allows you to create study decks and quizzes. Once you get onto the pay spectrum, you find software with interactive original content and native speaker instructors.

[Vijay]

I've ended up using a fellow ZBBer's advice (not originally intended for language learning in particular but still seems to apply; not sure whether the ZBBer in question wants to be acknowledged by name): "Read. Read a lot. Then read some more."

That sounds like the sort of thing I would say!

Yes, it was you! (EDIT: Except on UniLang, not here)

[dɮ the phoneme]

UniLang

I just checked that place out, and it seems like a potentially useful resource. Is it any good?

[Vijay]

UniLang

I just checked that place out, and it seems like a potentially useful resource. Is it any good?

I hate the administration, and the entire reason why I came here was as a refugee from UniLang. It's also pretty dead now (I would say more than the ZBB), but other than that, it's good.

[Kuchigakatai]

Regarding dead languages that mostly exist in written form, for Latin, I found it very effective to:
- chat with people
- use bilingual readers, whether makeshift or expressedly made so
- use easy reading material

Point #1 is particularly nice for its bound real-time thinking, getting used to morphology and syntax on the go, which proves useful soon enough when reading the language. The problem is that you don't want to be the most experienced person in a chat, and finding a kind soul that's more advanced to chat may or may not be a problem depending on the dead language. Finding someone to practise Gothic, Old English or Sanskrit appears to be easier than Old Church Slavonic or Classical Chinese (well, unless you want to poke around Mandarin Internet groups, maybe).

Point #2 is simply a much, much gentler way of tackling more difficult, genuine Latin earlier on, which makes excellent reading practice. I also found it very helpful to try to tackle a hard text* while asking an advanced learner questions about how this or that bit I didn't understand worked. You can grab any translation + the original text as a "makeshift" bilingual reader.

Point #3 is an obviously useful stepstone, although Latin here benefits from having an absolutely massive wealth of resources. I mean, there's a website to access over 4000 versions of Aesop's fables in easy Latin--how many dead languages have something like this? So this might be possible in this language in a way it isn't in other dead languages. This point is more applicable to the big modern languages perhaps. Not to mention authentic ancient texts that happen to be in an easy sort of Latin as they are.**

* Cicero's De Oratore book 1
** Hyginus' fables, Publilius Syrus' proverbs, Curtius Rufus' history of Alexander, Cato's On Agriculture, Cornelius Nepos' Lives, the Vulgate Bible, Augustine's Confessions. Individual poems may also prove easy to read, notably most of Martial's two-liner epigrams. Cicero also writes basically like a normal person in his personal letters.

[Linguoboy]

UniLang

I just checked that place out, and it seems like a potentially useful resource. Is it any good?

I hate the administration, and the entire reason why I came here was as a refugee from UniLang. It's also pretty dead now (I would say more than the ZBB), but other than that, it's good.

There are still very active native speakers there of English, French, Spanish, Catalan, Portuguese, and Finnish and a very fluent L2 speaker of Estonian. If you have questions on one of those languages, you can be assured of very timely feedback. There’s a bit more of a lag for German, Dutch, Swedish, Russian, Turkish, Ukrainian, and Mandarin Chinese.

For other languages, it gets very catch-as-catch-can. I recently saw some comments from a native Javanese speaker so I asked them a few questions. Almost a month later, I’ve given up waiting for a response.

[Vijay]

I don't think I've ever even seen a bilingual reader for Latin. I just use normal textbooks instead since those often have readings with all the new vocabulary translated. (I also have used a reader that works roughly the same way).

[Kuchigakatai]

I don't think I've ever even seen a bilingual reader for Latin.

I was thinking of the hundred+ Loebs there. You can legally(!) download a bunch of oldies but goodies from here.

[Znex]

For other languages, it gets very catch-as-catch-can. I recently saw some comments from a native Javanese speaker so I asked them a few questions. Almost a month later, I’ve given up waiting for a response.

Speaking of, I actually have a Javanese friend if you want me to pass on the same questions? I'm sure he wouldn't mind (actually he's been starving to use Javanese; he's in the US atm).

[Vijay]

I don't think I've ever even seen a bilingual reader for Latin.

I was thinking of the hundred+ Loebs there. You can legally(!) download a bunch of oldies but goodies from here.

Thanks!

I think I've been finding it hard even to tell how exactly I go about studying languages. It's almost as if I just dove into a swimming pool and somehow managed to stay afloat until I got to the other side and then people were like "wow! You're such a great swimmer! How did you do that?!" Uhhh idk I just did whatever I could so I wouldn't die ig?

[Kuchigakatai]

And again, you could also make your virtual makeshift bilingual reader by just grabbing a translation and an edition of the original Latin and reading them together, even if they're two books. The Loebs have a nice book design for this though.

I think I've been finding it hard even to tell how exactly I go about studying languages. It's almost as if I just dove into a swimming pool and somehow managed to stay afloat until I got to the other side and then people were like "wow! You're such a great swimmer! How did you do that?!" Uhhh idk I just did whatever I could so I wouldn't die ig?

Do you think there's much to say about language learning besides piling up the hours of learning?

I'm aware of opinions on some learning methods being better than others, but I am increasingly of the opinion that time exposing yourself to the language you want to understand is what mostly matters, and the difference between learning methods is mostly found in how engaging they are to students to get them to spend time necessary to get used to a language (and people differ a lot in what learning methods they enjoy).

Like, the main problem with the "grammar-translation" method commonly used for Latin seems to be that the method exposes students to the language too little, namely the reading passages and translation exercises are too few. And this is made worse as Latin classes are typically taught in the oral vernacular instead of spoken Latin, further reducing the amount of Latin students get to be exposed to. In a typical intermediate French class, there's a lot of reinforcement going on merely by encouraging French speech, especially as the students listen to the teacher. Not the typical case in Latin. Much of the greatness of the Ørberg LLPSI books seems to be that they actually get students to face stretches of fairly understandable Latin.

And I really notice this "time exposing yourself to language" thing when people have very unbalanced oral or written skills, being much better at the oral language than the written one, or viceversa. I recall meeting a Canadian woman who had studied some Spanish at university mostly to be able to do ayahuasca in some religious context, who obviously had little interest in written Spanish—she ended up living with a couple shamans in the interior of Ecuador for a few years. When I met her at a Spanish group here she admitted her interest and active skill in written Spanish was low, but I can tell you her spoken Spanish was excellent...

And for an example of someone a lot more skilled on the written side of a language, there's me and Mandarin... all because I don't like talking to people and don't enjoy oral media much (even in English/Spanish). It's weird to say but I can read Mandarin much better than I understand it orally. It's totally possible to end up this way depending on how you spend your time. Heck, even in English, my written comprehension/production is better than my oral comprehension/production. I still can't really understand Hollywood movies, once the actors start whispering or speaking in a very glottalized "intimate" way or the like, which they tend to do an awful lot for dramatic effect.

I tried watching Guardians of the Galaxy in 2014 and Deadpool in 2016 in theatres, and what an awful experience that was. Even today, in 2021, if I transcribe what I actually hear on a first try:

- What happen? [unhearable -ed]
- This guy jsst backed adadava deal with me.
- There's one thing I hate it's a man vadhat integrity. [unhearable initial "if"]
- Peter Qwull, pippullgall me Starlord.
- [with heavy glottalization:] You have the berrin of a man of honour.
- Well, I'd... I would say that. [unhearable -n't in wouldn't]
People say it about me, all the time, but, [with heavy glottalization:] it's not zudhadoovuhvar say ubbutt myself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noP9HY8nXvY

You don't need to give me the correct version. I can perfectly hear the dialogue after repeating the clip a few times ("it's not something I'd ever say about myself..."), but my point is I don't get it on the first try, so I can't watch movies in theatres. And I know I could fix it if I actually watched movies more (I hardly watch any, ever, in any language) and listened to people speaking more, but I just don't care. And I'd like to mention I don't have this problem in my everyday oral English life. It's really actors that try to sound a bit too cool or intimate in their acting, as in the clip with "cool speech" above.

Conversely, I also notice I have a much, much easier time understanding L2 English by Chinese speakers than the average non-Chinese Vancouverite, again due to actually talking to them more than the average non-Chinese Vancouverate typically does, besides actually trying to learn Mandarin.

[dɮ the phoneme]

And I really notice this "time exposing yourself to language" thing when people have very unbalanced oral or written skills, being much better at the oral language than the written one, or viceversa.

Yeah, this is basically my problem with Japanese. At my university all the language classes had associated "language tables" at the dining halls, where only that language was allowed to be spoken. You had to attend the language tables a certain number of a days a week to pass the class + the language professors ate there on rotation, so there were always people to talk to. (As an aside, I think this is a fantastic system and every university should do it). I showed up at the Japanese tables pretty much five days a week for three years, which was a huge amount of speaking practice given the limitations of living in a place where the language isn't widely spoken. But anyway I think this left me with much, much stronger speaking and listening skills than reading ability. The problem is that now reading presumably the primary avenue through which I can easily get more exposure to the language. So it looks like I'm gonna have to work on those.

Also, Kuchigakatai's post reminded me: does anyone know of anything like LLPSI for Sanskrit?

[Kuchigakatai]

Also, Kuchigakatai's post reminded me: does anyone know of anything like LLPSI for Sanskrit?

LLPSI is ultimately just a glorified* graded reader. Aren't there graded readers, or just readers, for Sanskrit? There should be...

* due to being monolingual in spite of being in a non-modern language. lol, I'm now just imagining an Old French reader completely in Old French...

[Linguoboy]

For other languages, it gets very catch-as-catch-can. I recently saw some comments from a native Javanese speaker so I asked them a few questions. Almost a month later, I’ve given up waiting for a response.

Speaking of, I actually have a Javanese friend if you want me to pass on the same questions? I'm sure he wouldn't mind (actually he's been starving to use Javanese; he's in the US atm).

Thanks! Now I just have to remember what they were.

(I think it was related to my discovery that mereka is a Javanese loan into Indonesian.)

[dɮ the phoneme]

Also, Kuchigakatai's post reminded me: does anyone know of anything like LLPSI for Sanskrit?

LLPSI is ultimately just a glorified* graded reader. Aren't there graded readers, or just readers, for Sanskrit? There should be...

* due to being monolingual in spite of being in a non-modern language. lol, I'm now just imagining an Old French reader completely in Old French...

There are many readers (I have one), but all that I've found start out at a much higher level than LLPSI.