Phrase evolution game
Re: Phrase evolution game
Mandarin is exotic? First I’ve heard of that.
Oh, and could someone provide an IPA transcription? Pinyin is horrible enough I don’t think I could do it myself.
Oh, and could someone provide an IPA transcription? Pinyin is horrible enough I don’t think I could do it myself.
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- Rounin Ryuuji
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Re: Phrase evolution game
It's, uhh, kind-of foreign? Anyway, I think it sounds like this :
中国是一个位于东亚的国家,也是一个正在崛起的超级大国。
Zhōngguó shì yīgè wèiyú dōngyà de guójiā, yěshì yīgè zhèngzài juéqǐ de chāojí dàguó.
[ʈʂʊ˥ŋ.kwo˧˥ ʂz˥˩ i˥.gɤ˥˩ wei˥˩.jy˧ tʊ˥ŋ.ja˥˩ tɤ kwo˧˥.cɕja˥ || je˩˧.ʂz˥˩ i˥.gɤ˥˩ ʈʂɤ˥˩ŋ.tsai˥˩ ɥe˧˥.cɕʰi˩˧ tɤ ʈʂʰɑu˥.cɕi˧˥ ta˥˩.kwo˧˥]
I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the minutiae of Mandarin phonology, however, so take this with a slight pinch of salt (or assume it's a slightly nonstandard dialect and run with it, maybe).
A gloss would also be welcome, since while I can read some of the characters, one I produce would probably be at least somewhat inaccurate.
中国是一个位于东亚的国家,也是一个正在崛起的超级大国。
Zhōngguó shì yīgè wèiyú dōngyà de guójiā, yěshì yīgè zhèngzài juéqǐ de chāojí dàguó.
[ʈʂʊ˥ŋ.kwo˧˥ ʂz˥˩ i˥.gɤ˥˩ wei˥˩.jy˧ tʊ˥ŋ.ja˥˩ tɤ kwo˧˥.cɕja˥ || je˩˧.ʂz˥˩ i˥.gɤ˥˩ ʈʂɤ˥˩ŋ.tsai˥˩ ɥe˧˥.cɕʰi˩˧ tɤ ʈʂʰɑu˥.cɕi˧˥ ta˥˩.kwo˧˥]
I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the minutiae of Mandarin phonology, however, so take this with a slight pinch of salt (or assume it's a slightly nonstandard dialect and run with it, maybe).
A gloss would also be welcome, since while I can read some of the characters, one I produce would probably be at least somewhat inaccurate.
Re: Phrase evolution game
I just remembered that Kuchigakatai listed the Standard Chinese rhymes with phonetic transcription. Cross-checking your transcription with that and Wikipedia, and fixing a couple of typos, I get the following:Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:14 am It's, uhh, kind-of foreign? Anyway, I think it sounds like this :
中国是一个位于东亚的国家,也是一个正在崛起的超级大国。
Zhōngguó shì yīgè wèiyú dōngyà de guójiā, yěshì yīgè zhèngzài juéqǐ de chāojí dàguó.
[ʈʂʊ˥ŋ.kwo˧˥ ʂz˥˩ i˥.gɤ˥˩ wei˥˩.jy˧ tʊ˥ŋ.ja˥˩ tɤ kwo˧˥.cɕja˥ || je˩˧.ʂz˥˩ i˥.gɤ˥˩ ʈʂɤ˥˩ŋ.tsai˥˩ ɥe˧˥.cɕʰi˩˧ tɤ ʈʂʰɑu˥.cɕi˧˥ ta˥˩.kwo˧˥]
[ʈʂʊŋ˥kwɔ˧˥ ʂʅ˥˩ i˧˥gɤ˥˩ weɪ˥˩jy˧˥ tʊŋ˥ja˥˩ tɤ꜌ kwɔ˧˥cɕja˥ | jɛ˨˩.ʂʅ˥˩ i˧˥gɤ˥˩ ʈʂɤŋ˥˩tsai˥˩ ɟʑɥe˧˥cɕʰi˨˩ tɤ꜌ ʈʂʰɑɔ˥cɕi˧˥ ta˥˩kwɔ˧˥]
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- Rounin Ryuuji
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Re: Phrase evolution game
I can work with this:bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:45 am I just remembered that Kuchigakatai listed the Standard Chinese rhymes with phonetic transcription. Cross-checking your transcription with that and Wikipedia, and fixing a couple of typos, I get the following:
[ʈʂʊŋ˥kwɔ˧˥ ʂʅ˥˩ i˧˥gɤ˥˩ weɪ˥˩jy˧˥ tʊŋ˥ja˥˩ tɤ꜌ kwɔ˧˥cɕja˥ | jɛ˨˩.ʂʅ˥˩ i˧˥gɤ˥˩ ʈʂɤŋ˥˩tsai˥˩ ɟʑɥe˧˥cɕʰi˨˩ tɤ꜌ ʈʂʰɑɔ˥cɕi˧˥ ta˥˩kwɔ˧˥]
- The "flat" tone lengthens the vowel; if it is a diphthong, the first element lengthens, and the second becomes more consonantal;
- The "accute" tone breaks the vowel into a diphthong: [ɔ] > [ɔə], [i] > [iə] [y] > [yə], [e] > [eə]
- The "grave" tone breaks the vowel into a different diphthong: [ɤ] > [əɤ], [e] > [əe], [a] > [əa] ; ʅ > [ə]
- The "dipping" tone does not affect the vowel quality;
- All tones subsequently disappear;
- Diphthongs [ɔə əɤ] merge to [əɔ] > [ou] > [oː]; [iə əe] > [əi] > [eː], [yə] > [yː] > [iː]; [əa ɑː] > [aː]; [ə ɤ] > [ə] > [a]; [ʊː] > [øː]
- Retroflexes become postalveolars, palatals remain as allophones before front vowels
中国是一个位于东亚的国家,也是一个正在崛起的超级大国。
Chēongkwō sha ēgō wēiyī tēongyā ta kwōchyā, yesha ēgō chōngtsāi jyuēchhi ta chhāwchyē tākwō.
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Re: Phrase evolution game
- After alveolo-palatals, /j/ elides and /ɥ/ becomes /ʷ/.
- /kw/ becomes /kʷ/.
- /i ɪ/ break to /ji jɪ/ after long vowels; this is reflected in the romanization.
中国是一个位于东亚的国家,也是一个正在崛起的超级大国。
Chēongkwō sha ēgō wēyiyī tēongyā ta kwōchyā, yesha ēgō chōngtsāyi jyuēchhi ta chhāwchyē tākwō.
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Re: Phrase evolution game
StrangerCoug wrote: ↑Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:07 am[tʃøːŋ.kʷoː ʃa eːgoː weːjɪ.jiː tøːŋ.jaː ta kʷoːcɕaː | jɛ.ʂa eːgoː tʃoːŋtsaːji ɟʑʷeːtʃʰi ta tʃʰaːwcɕeː taːkʷoː]
- After alveolo-palatals, /j/ elides and /ɥ/ becomes /ʷ/.
- /kw/ becomes /kʷ/.
- /i ɪ/ break to /ji jɪ/ after long vowels; this is reflected in the romanization.
中国是一个位于东亚的国家,也是一个正在崛起的超级大国。
Chēongkwō sha ēgō wēyiyī tēongyā ta kwōchyā, yesha ēgō chōngtsāyi jyuēchhi ta chhāwchyē tākwō.
- Terminal [ŋ] becomes [w];
- Initial voiceless unaspirate stops and affricates are voiced in almost all positions
- Palatals and Postalveolars are reanalysed, with Palatals preceding front vowels, and postalveolars occurring elsewhere; labialised palatals become labiopalatals;
- Collapse of CCP, return to mostly traditional characters under Taiwanese and Japanese influence; a programme of unification to improve transcultural literacy and to produce unified fonts replaces very complex characters with their Japanese "Shinjitai" forms;
- [jɪ] > [jə] between long elements
- Spaces inserted between words; insertion of 伊 也 to represent the intrusive "yi yĕ" that have appeared after certain long vowels;
- Loss of labialisation (but not labiopalatalisation)
- [dz] > [z] > [ʁ]
- [aːw] [oːw] > [oːu]; [øːu] > [øːy] > [eːy]
中国 是 一个 位也於 東亜 的 国家,也是 一个 正在伊 崛起 的 超級 大国。
Jēugō sha ēgō wēyĕyī dēuyā ta gōjā, yesha ēgō jōurhāyi juēchi ta chōujē dāgō.
Future Chinese is pretty.
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Re: Phrase evolution game
- Polysyllabic words now have stress. If all the vowels in a word are short monophthongs, stress falls on the penult; otherwise, stress falls on the heaviest syllable, with ties breaking right-to-left.
- The first element in a long diphthong becomes short.
- Word-initially and intervocalically, /w/ becomes /v/; in the same context, /j/ becomes /ʑ/ before front vowels and /ʒ/ otherwise.
中国 是 一个 位也於 東亜 的 国家,也是 一个 正在伊 崛起 的 超級 大国。
Jeugō sha ēgō vēzhĕzhī deuyā ta gōjā, zhesha ēgō jourhāzhi juēchi ta choujē dāgō.
Re: Phrase evolution game
- Diphthongs assimilate in roundedness
- Long vowel breaking: aː → əɤ, eː → ei, oː → ou, iː → iə
- /i y u/ of diphthongs transphonologise onto following consonant; remaining diphthongs monophthongise
- ɟʑᶣ → ɡʷ
- v ɥ → f w
- d tʃʰ dʒ ʃ cɕʰ → t tʂ dʐ ʂ cɕ
- ɡ → k → q, cɕ ɟʑ → kʲ ɡʲ → k ɡ + unrounding of following vowel
- Syncope in sequences of two unstressed syllables, and of word-initial unstressed vowels; slight cluster simplification. New characters are created for some syncopated forms (represented here with Ideographic Description Characters)
[ˈɡe.ɡʷo ʂa ɡɤ fʑəˈʑə ˈtø.wɤ ta qʷɤ | ˈʑɛ.ʂa ɡɤ ˈdʒo.ʁʷʑi ˈɡʷe.ki ta ˈtʂo.ɡʷe tqo]
中国 是 ⿻一个 位也於 東亜 的 国家,也是 ⿻一个 正在伊 崛起 的 超級 大国。
Gegwo sha gŏ fzhŏzhŏ teuwŏ ta qwŏ, zhesha gŏ jourzhi gweki ta chogwe tqo.
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Re: Phrase evolution game
- Deretroflexion, [ʂ tʂ] > [s ts];
- Uvilars merge with velars, [q qʷ] > [k kʷ];
- Lenition of [g] to [ɣ ʝ] in nearly all contexts; insertion of [j] after [ʝ ʑ], except before [i[/o]; postconsonantal [k] > [x]
[*]Glide or Labilisation/Palatalisation affects subsequent vowels [jə jɛ] > [je], [wɤ] > [wo] > [u]
[*]Coda [ʁʷ], initial preconsonantal [f], and postconsonantal [x] vocalise to [u]
[*]Before front vowels, labialisation becomes labiopalatalisation again, possibly owing to a shift in which dialect is prestigious; this is followed by a loss of labialisation or labiopalatalisation, ejecting [u y] respectively into the syllable onset;
[*]Cliicisation of "ta" onto the preceding vowel, voicing of [t] > [d] in this context; stress is dragged to the syllable immediately before -da.
[*]Diphthongisation of the heaviest vowel in a word, [e] > [ei], [a] > [əa], [ɤ] > [əo], [u] > [əu], [i] > [əi], [o] > [ou]
[*]The first syllable of 一个 being lost, and the word becoming a monosyllable again, the character 弌 (originally a variant of 一) is adopted, the word meaning "a single, one single"; it is on the way to becoming a definite article
[*]Because 東亜 "East Asia" has become a monosyllable, the old characterform 亞 has been revived to write it
[*]Because 国家 "state, country" has become a monosyllable, the old characterform 國 has been revived to write it
[*]Now disyllabic, 正在伊 loses the phonetic character 伊.
[*]Now monosyllabic, 大国 "great power" receives the spelling 囻, a character originally a variant of 国.]
中国 是 弌 位也於 亞的 國, 也是 弌 正在 崛起的 超級 囻。
Hyeihuo sŏa hăo ujiejiei teouda kŏu, jieisa hăo jouji hyekăida tsouhye tuo.
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Re: Phrase evolution game
- Prevocalic non-syllabic /u y/ becomes /w ɥ/.
- Diphthongs assimilate in rounding to the vowel in its nucleus unless the nucleus is /a ə/ (affects only one word in the sample).
- /əo/ collapses with /əu/ and the former becomes transliterated the same way as the latter as a result; by analogy, /əi/ becomes transliterated as ŏi despite not having changed in sound.
- 弌 cliticizes onto the following word and a space is no longer written after it; resulting series of two consecutive u's in the transliteration become separated by a silent w.
中国 是 弌位也於 亞的 國, 也是 弌正在 崛起的 超級 囻。
Hyeihuo sŏa hŏuwujiejiei teouda kŏu, jieisa hŏujouji hyekŏida tsouhye tuo.
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Re: Phrase evolution game
- Palatal fricatives merge [ʝ(j) ʑ(j)] > [ʑ(j)], [ɣ] devoices to [x];
- Diphthongs collapse [əi ei] > [eː], [əu ou] > [oː], [øy] > [yː]; [əa] > [aː]; [ou] in cliticised 弌 reduces to [o], creating sometimes distinct indefinite forms of nominals;
- Unstressed [je ɥe wo] > [i y u]
- [t k] > [cɕ] before front vowels; non-palatal affricates shift to palatals by assimilation if another palatal fricative or affricate follows
中国 是 弌位也於 亞的 國, 也是 弌正在 崛起的 超級 囻。
Jiēhu sā hōjijiē chiūda kō, jiēsa hojiōji jiuchiēda chiōjiu tuo.
Compare with:
中国是一个位于东亚的国家,也是一个正在崛起的超级大国。
Zhōngguó shì yīgè wèiyú dōngyà de guójiā, yěshì yīgè zhèngzài juéqǐ de chāojí dàguó.
Have we improved it enough yet?
Re: Phrase evolution game
I want to make it tonal again, but everything I did has looked awful the last few rounds.
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Re: Phrase evolution game
Here's a new one:
Все счастливые семьи похожи друг на друга, каждая несчастливая семья несчастлива по-своему.
Vse schastlivye sem'i pohozhi drug na druga, kazhdaja neschastlivaja sem'ja neschastliva po-svoemu.
[fsʲe ɕːɪsˈlʲivɨje sʲɪˈmji pɐˈxoʐɨ druk nə ˈdruɡə | ˈkaʐdəjə nʲɪɕt͡ɕɪsˈlʲivəjə sʲɪˈmja nʲɪɕːɪsˈlʲivə pɐ‿ˈsvoɪmʊ]
Hope the IPA transcription is reasonably correct xD
Edit: Applied a couple corrections that were pointed out, I copied Wikipedia's pronunciation for the words for the wrong languages.
Edit #2: Another IPA transcription error caught by me and fixed.
Все счастливые семьи похожи друг на друга, каждая несчастливая семья несчастлива по-своему.
Vse schastlivye sem'i pohozhi drug na druga, kazhdaja neschastlivaja sem'ja neschastliva po-svoemu.
[fsʲe ɕːɪsˈlʲivɨje sʲɪˈmji pɐˈxoʐɨ druk nə ˈdruɡə | ˈkaʐdəjə nʲɪɕt͡ɕɪsˈlʲivəjə sʲɪˈmja nʲɪɕːɪsˈlʲivə pɐ‿ˈsvoɪmʊ]
Hope the IPA transcription is reasonably correct xD
Edit: Applied a couple corrections that were pointed out, I copied Wikipedia's pronunciation for the words for the wrong languages.
Edit #2: Another IPA transcription error caught by me and fixed.
Last edited by StrangerCoug on Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Phrase evolution game
Anna Karenina, right?
I would say that apart from some minor ones [fsʲɛ, druk] it is close enough.
I would say that apart from some minor ones [fsʲɛ, druk] it is close enough.
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Re: Phrase evolution game
Yep. The first sentence, in fact.
I went with what Wiktionary gave me except without the palatalizations it marked as optional, but I will double-check those two.
Edit: All right, applied the two you pointed out.
I went with what Wiktionary gave me except without the palatalizations it marked as optional, but I will double-check those two.
Edit: All right, applied the two you pointed out.
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Re: Phrase evolution game
1. Eimination of case endings
Все счастливые семьи похожи другəа друг, каждая несчастливая семья несчастлива нa-свои.
Vse schastlivye sem'i pohozhi drug na drug, kazhdaja neschastlivaja sem'ja neschastliva na-svoj.
[fsʲe ɕːɪsˈlʲivɨje sʲɪˈmji pɐˈxoʐɨ druk nə ˈdruɡ | ˈkaʐdəjə nʲɪɕt͡ɕɪsˈlʲivəjə sʲɪˈmja nʲɪɕːɪsˈlʲivə nə svoj]
Все счастливые семьи похожи другəа друг, каждая несчастливая семья несчастлива нa-свои.
Vse schastlivye sem'i pohozhi drug na drug, kazhdaja neschastlivaja sem'ja neschastliva na-svoj.
[fsʲe ɕːɪsˈlʲivɨje sʲɪˈmji pɐˈxoʐɨ druk nə ˈdruɡ | ˈkaʐdəjə nʲɪɕt͡ɕɪsˈlʲivəjə sʲɪˈmja nʲɪɕːɪsˈlʲivə nə svoj]
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Re: Phrase evolution game
Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:34 am 1. Eimination of case endings
Все счастливые семьи похожи другəа друг, каждая несчастливая семья несчастлива нa-свои.
Vse schastlivye sem'i pohozhi drug na drug, kazhdaja neschastlivaja sem'ja neschastliva na-svoj.
[fsʲe ɕːɪsˈlʲivɨje sʲɪˈmji pɐˈxoʐɨ druk nə ˈdruɡ | ˈkaʐdəjə nʲɪɕt͡ɕɪsˈlʲivəjə sʲɪˈmja nʲɪɕːɪsˈlʲivə nə svoj]
- Palatalised consonants shift to palatals — [sʲ] > [ɕ(j)], [nʲ] > [ɲ], [lʲ] > [ʎ];
- Schwa shifts to [ɨ] in most cases;
- Epinthetic [ɨ] inserted to break up certain clusters and before initial geminates;
- [ɨ] shifts to [i] after palatals, and [u] after labials
- Contraction of [əjə] > [ej]
- Terminal [j] fortifies to [ʎ]
- [e] > [i] after palatals
Фуси ыссисливуе симьи похожы дырук ны дыруг, каждэй нисичистливэй симья ниссистливы ны-сывой.
Fushi ysshislyívuje shimjí po-hozsy dyrúk ny dyrúg, kazsydelj njishichisljivelj shimja njisshisljivy ny syvolj.
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Re: Phrase evolution game
- Voiceless stops or affricates at the beginning of a word or stressed syllable become aspirated.
- /ɕ/ degeminates and is now consistently spelled щ.
- Voicing becomes allophonic: sonorants remain always voiced; aspirated consonants are always voiceless; all other consonants are voiced in intervocalic position or adjacent to a sonorant and voiceless otherwise. Word boundaries do not block voicing, but pauses do.
- /ɐ/ merges with /a/ and is now consistently spelled а.
- Spelling reform:
- Where the voiced/voiceless distinction has converted to a tenuis/aspirated distinction, letters that formerly spelled voiced stops now spell tenuis letters, while letters that formerly spelled voiceless letters now spell aspirated letters.
- The letters в з ж have been abolished and replaced with ф с ш.
- While not all of these occur in the sample, the letters ђ љ њ ћ џ have been borrowed from Serbian to spell /t͡ɕ~d͡ʑ ʎ ɲ t͡ɕʰ ʈ͡ʂ~d͡ʑ/, while ѕ has been revived to spell t͡s~d͡z; ц ч remain available in the alphabet to spell /t͡sʰ ʈ͡ʂʰ/.
- The letter і has been revived to spell /i/; и ы remain for /ɪ ɨ/. The letter ї is borrowed from Ukranian to spell /ji/.
- The word симья has been simplified in spelling to симя.
Фущі ыщисљіфуе щимї пахошы дыруг ны дыруг, кажыдэљ њищиђисљівэљ щимя нищисліфы ны-сыфољ.
Fuśi yśĭsljifuje śĭmji pahošy dyrug ny dyrug, kašydelj njĭśĭźĭsljifelj śĭmja njĭśĭsljify ny-syfolj.
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Re: Phrase evolution game
StrangerCoug wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:03 pm
[fuʑi ɨ.ʑɪzˈʎi.vu.je ɕɪˈmji pʰɐˈɣo.ʐɨ dɨ'ruɡ nɨ ˈdɨ'ruk | ˈkʰaʐɨdeʎ ɲɪʑɪd͡ʑɪzˈʎiveʎ ɕɪˈmja ɲɪ.ʑɪzˈʎivɨ nɨ sɨvoʎ]
Фущі ыщисљіфуе щимї пахошы дыруг ны дыруг, кажыдэљ њищиђисљівэљ щимя нищисліфы ны-сыфољ.
Fuśi yśĭsljifuje śĭmji pahošy dyrug ny dyrug, kašydelj njĭśĭźĭsljifelj śĭmja njĭśĭsljify ny-syfolj.
- Bright Mutation occurs in syllables (1) immediately preceded by [i j]; or (2) having an initial or coda palatal consonant: [u] > [y]; [ɨ ɪ] > [i], [e] > [ie], [a] > [æ]; the effect may retrogress through the entire word;
- Dark Mutation occurs in syllables immediately preceding [ɨ] or with a retroflex initial or coda: [i] > [ɨ], [o] > [ɤ];
- Back Mutation occurs in syllables immediately preceding [u o] or with a labial initial, often triggering some form of backing or rounding: [j] > [ɥ], [i] > [y], [ɨ] > [ʊ];
- Intervocalic [j] not perceived as part of an excrescence of a vowel becomes [ʑ]
- Stress moves to the last heavy syllable in a word; if no syllables are heavy, it falls upon the penult, and the vowel is allophonically lengthened;
- Velars and dentals merge to palatals before front vowels;
- Initial [f] voices to [v];
- In all positions, [v] > [ʋ], or [w] before rounded back vowels;
- Loss of pretonic, and sometimes posttonic, unstressed vowels, often triggering assimilation;
- Resultant [yʋ] > [yː], [pʰɣ] > [cʰj];
- The orthography remains fairly conservative
- "ф" continues to be used to write the new phoneme [w~ʋ], and in certain circumstances may represent that the preceding vowel is long; long vowels are otherwise unmarked in the orthography;
- All three of ы, и, і remain valid historical spellings of [i], however shifts of [i] > [y] are represented by the revived letter ѵ.
- The shift of [j] > [ʑ] is usually represented orthographically;
- A few vowels are deleted or respelled where a significant change has occurred; however [ʊ] is still usually spelled ы, and [æ] usually а.
['ʋyː.ʑi i.ʑiz.ʎyː'ʑie ɕiˈmɥiː cʰjɤː.ʐɨ dʊ'ruɡ nɨ ˈdʊ'ruk | cʰæʑ'ɟiʎ ɲiʑid͡ʑiʑʋiʎ ɕiˈmɥæ 'ʑɲɪ.zʎɨ.ʋɨ nɨ sʊ'woʎ]
Фущі ыщисљѵфущіе щимї пхёшы дыруг ны дыруг, каждиљ њищиђисљіфиљ щимя щнисліфы ны-сыфољ.
Füüzschi izschizljüüzschie shimjwii kjŏŏszi dyrúg ny dyrúk, kjäzschgjilj njizschidzschizschwilj schimjwää zschnjisljywy ny sywólj.
Hope that isn't a bit too much, but I kind-of like the result?
- StrangerCoug
- Posts: 168
- Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:11 pm
- Location: San Antonio, TX
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Re: Phrase evolution game
- Retroactively voiced a consonant that remained unvoiced despite being intervocalic and word breaks not blocking the voicing.
- [ʂ~ʐ ɕ~ʑ] merge to [ʃ~ʒ].
Фущі ыщисљѵфущіе щимї пхёшы дыруг ны дыруг, каждиљ њищиђисљіфиљ щимя щнисліфы ны-сыфољ.
Füüzschi izschizljüüzschie shimjwii kjŏŏszi dyrúg ny dyrúk, kjäzschgjilj njizschidzschizschwilj schimjwää zschnjisljywy ny sywólj.