Håmwo Väh, tongue of the people (Was: A scratchpad)

[Travis B.]

[tɕʰeꜜ xaːrʲꜜtsʰaːna zʷaːꜜlɯχɯxa laβuɣʷøɲeɟiʑi]
/tɕʰə́ xáːrʲ-tsʰaː=na zʷáːlɨ-χɨ=xa la-βɨɣʷə-ɲə-ɟɨ-ʑɨ/
1.SG 3.SG.B.DIST-WH=ACC word.A=INDEF.PL=ACC next-NOMINAL=INST NOM.1.SG-add-ACC.3.SG.B-DESIRABLE-WH
What should I add next?

[Ahzoh]

Talk about derivation

[Travis B.]

For starters, I should add a causative voice to verbs which can be combined with other voices. This would be:

Causative

-sa

This directly precedes the other voice markers.

Secondarily, it would be a good idea to add multiple nominalizations aside from the generic nominalization I have used in these examples, e.g. agent, patient, etc. These will be:

Gerund/action/result	-χɨ
Agent/instrument	-ŋa
Patient	-dzə
Location	-ja

These are attached directly after verbs stems with voice marking attached.

[Travis B.]

I figured I had to also come up with a version of the Seven Kill Stele text, but first I needed a way of expressing "ten thousand", so hence I had to come up with numbers first. So here goes:

one	aχ
two	máː
three	tʷʰə́m
four	ŋɨç
five	ɡa
six	ɡa-aχ
seven	ɡa-máː
eight	ɡa-tʷʰə́m
nine	ɡa-ŋɨç
ten	βʷátʰ
eleven	βʷátʰ-aχ
twelve	βʷátʰ-máː
thirteen	βʷátʰ-tʷʰə́m
fourteen	βʷátʰ-ŋɨç
fifteen	βʷátʰ-ɡa
sixteen	βʷátʰ-ɡa-aχ
seventeen	βʷátʰ-ɡa-máː
eighteen	βʷátʰ-ɡa-tʷʰə́m
nineteen	βʷátʰ-ɡa-ŋɨç
twenty	sɨɲ
twenty one	sɨɲ-aχ
twenty two	sɨɲ-máː
twenty three	sɨɲ-tʷʰə́m
twenty four	sɨɲ-ŋɨç
twenty five	sɨɲ-ɡa
twenty six	sɨɲ-ɡa-aχ
twenty seven	sɨɲ-ɡa-máː
twenty eight	sɨɲ-ɡa-tʷʰə́m
twenty nine	sɨɲ-ɡa-ŋɨç
thirty	sɨɲ-βʷátʰ
thirty one	sɨɲ-βʷátʰ-aχ
thirty two	sɨɲ-βʷátʰ-máː
thirty three	sɨɲ-βʷátʰ-tʷʰə́m
thirty four	sɨɲ-βʷátʰ-ŋɨç
thirty five	sɨɲ-βʷátʰ-ɡa
thirty six	sɨɲ-βʷátʰ-ɡa-aχ
thirty seven	sɨɲ-βʷátʰ-ɡa-máː
thirty eight	sɨɲ-βʷátʰ-ɡa-tʷʰə́m
thirty nine	sɨɲ-βʷátʰ-ɡa-ŋɨç
forty	máː-sɨɲ
forty one	máː-sɨɲ-aχ
forty two	máː-sɨɲ-máː
forty three	máː-sɨɲ-tʷʰə́m
forty four	máː-sɨɲ-ŋɨç
forty five	máː-sɨɲ-ɡa
forty six	máː-sɨɲ-ɡa-aχ
forty seven	máː-sɨɲ-ɡa-máː
forty eight	máː-sɨɲ-ɡa-tʷʰə́m
forty nine	máː-sɨɲ-ɡa-ŋɨç
fifty	máː-sɨɲ-βʷátʰ
fifty one	máː-sɨɲ-βʷátʰ-aχ
fifty two	máː-sɨɲ-βʷátʰ-máː
fifty three	máː-sɨɲ-βʷátʰ-tʷʰə́m
fifty four	máː-sɨɲ-βʷátʰ-ŋɨç
fifty five	máː-sɨɲ-βʷátʰ-ɡa
fifty six	máː-sɨɲ-βʷátʰ-ɡa-aχ
fifty seven	máː-sɨɲ-βʷátʰ-ɡa-máː
fifty eight	máː-sɨɲ-βʷátʰ-ɡa-tʷʰə́m
fifty nine	máː-sɨɲ-βʷátʰ-ɡa-ŋɨç
sixty	tʷʰə́m-sɨɲ

etc.

one hundred	nan
one hundred and one	nan-aχ

etc.

two hundred	sɨɲ-nan
two hundred and one	sɨɲ-nan-aχ

etc.

nine hundred	ɡa-ŋɨç-nan
nine hundred and one	ɡa-ŋɨç-nan-aχ

etc.

one thousand	jəkʷʼ
one thousand and one	jəkʷʼ-aχ

etc.

two thousand	sɨɲ-jəkʷʼ
two thousand and one	sɨɲ-jəkʷʼ-aχ

etc.

nine thousand	ɡa-ŋɨç-jəkʷʼ
nine thousand and one	ɡa-ŋɨç-jəkʷʼ-aχ

etc.

ten thousand	nɨɣʷ
ten thousand and one	nɨɣʷ-aχ

etc.

eleven thousand	nɨɣʷ-sɨɲ-jəkʷʼ
eleven thousand and one	nɨɣʷ-sɨɲ-jəkʷʼ-aχ

etc.

nineteen thousand	nɨɣʷ-ŋɨç-jəkʷʼ
nineteen thousand and one	nɨɣʷ-ɡa-ŋɨç-jəkʷʼ-aχ

[Vardelm]

Janko gonna love you long time!

[Travis B.]

Janko gonna love you long time!

Okay, about how you use numbers, numbers normally behave like stative verbs, and treating them as nouns requires explicitly nominalizing them with -χɨ. Note that nouns qualified by numbers are normally in the singular, unless one is referring to groups of that noun.

[Vardelm]

Okay, about how you use numbers, numbers normally behave like stative verbs, and treating them as nouns requires explicitly nominalizing them with -χɨ. Note that nouns qualified by numbers are normally in the singular, unless one is referring to groups of that noun.

Me likey. With my limited non-English experience, I don't know if there are natlangs that do this, but it seems like there should be. It hit me that "stative numbers" would work well in Jin, so if this isn't a natlang feature, it means I'm shamelessly stealing it (minus the nominalization).

[bradrn]

Okay, about how you use numbers, numbers normally behave like stative verbs, and treating them as nouns requires explicitly nominalizing them with -χɨ. Note that nouns qualified by numbers are normally in the singular, unless one is referring to groups of that noun.

Me likey. With my limited non-English experience, I don't know if there are natlangs that do this, but it seems like there should be. It hit me that "stative numbers" would work well in Jin, so if this isn't a natlang feature, it means I'm shamelessly stealing it (minus the nominalization).

It’s attested in some North American languages, though I can’t recall exactly which ones.

[keenir]

No, I haven't figured out who speaks this yet, even though I was tempted to add "away from the coast" and "towards the coast" directionals...

Sounds cool and obviously places the speakers in an environment to some extent.

I decided against those, because they would be synonymous with uphill and downhill.

maybe have "toward the coast" be "uphill" because the most culturally prominent coastline is a cliff?

[Travis B.]

Sounds cool and obviously places the speakers in an environment to some extent.

I decided against those, because they would be synonymous with uphill and downhill.

maybe have "toward the coast" be "uphill" because the most culturally prominent coastline is a cliff?

That's an interesting choice. I had been thinking of uphill being away from the coast as inland areas would be mountainous while downhill would be towards the coast because the coast is at the lowest elevation land-wise.

[Travis B.]

Okay, about how you use numbers, numbers normally behave like stative verbs, and treating them as nouns requires explicitly nominalizing them with -χɨ. Note that nouns qualified by numbers are normally in the singular, unless one is referring to groups of that noun.

Me likey. With my limited non-English experience, I don't know if there are natlangs that do this, but it seems like there should be. It hit me that "stative numbers" would work well in Jin, so if this isn't a natlang feature, it means I'm shamelessly stealing it (minus the nominalization).

It’s attested in some North American languages, though I can’t recall exactly which ones.

[ɟæꜜna tɕʰeꜜrʲi mijøꜜwo dzɯʁχɯ mimʲineꜜjømʷu]
/ɟá-na tɕʰə́=rʲɨ mɨ-jə́wə dzɨʁ-χɨ mɨ-mʲɨnə́-jə-mʷɨ/
3.SG.E.PROX=ERG 1.SG=DAT ABS.3.SG.E-be.good choose-NOMINAL.E ABS.3.SG.E-seem-PFV.PST-ERG.3.SG.E
It seemed to me to be a good choice.

[Rounin Ryuuji]

[ɟaꜜna tɕʰeꜜrʲi mijøꜜwo dzɯʁχɯ mimʲineꜜjømʷu]
/ɟá-na tɕʰə́=rʲɨ mɨ-jə́wə dzɨʁ-χɨ mɨ-mʲɨnə́-jə-mʷɨ/
3.SG.E.PROX=ERG 1.SG=DAT ABS.3.SG.E-be.good choose-NOMINAL.E ABS.3.SG.E-seem-PFV.PST-ERG.3.SG.E
It seemed to me to be a good choice.

This language is nice.

[Travis B.]

One thing I have just thought of is the need for an orthography - but of course with a language like this, an orthography is likely to be linguistically naive, and a simple phoneme to grapheme mapping. I will bring this up in the romanization thread, though, as that seems to be a better place for this.

[Travis B.]

From the Romanization thread, here is the "official" orthography for this language:

Plain, fronting/palatalizing, and backing/rounding consonant phonemes are merged together orthographically, as can be seen below:

⟨m⟩ for /mʷ m mʲ/, ⟨n⟩ for /nʷ n ɲ/, and ⟨ñ⟩ for /ŋʷ ŋ/
⟨b⟩ for /bʷ b bʲ/, ⟨d⟩ for /dʷ d/, ⟨dz⟩ for /dzʷ dz dʑ/, and ⟨g⟩ for /ɟ ɡʷ ɡ/
⟨p⟩ for /pʷʰ pʰ pʲʰ/, ⟨t⟩ for /tʷʰ tʰ/, ⟨ts⟩ for /tsʷʰ tsʰ tɕʰ/, ⟨k⟩ for /cʰ kʷʰ kʰ/, and ⟨q⟩ for /qʷʰ qʰ/
⟨p'⟩ for /pʷʼ pʼ pʲʼ/, ⟨t'⟩ for /tʷʼ tʼ/, ⟨ts'⟩ for /tsʷʼ tsʼ tɕʼ/, ⟨k'⟩ for /cʼ kʷʼ kʼ/, and ⟨q'⟩ for /qʷʼ qʼ/
⟨f⟩ for /ɸʷ ɸ fʲ/, ⟨s⟩ for /sʷ s ɕ/, ⟨h⟩ for /ç xʷ x/, and ⟨x⟩ for /χʷ χ/
⟨v⟩ for /βʷ β vʲ/, ⟨z⟩ for /zʷ z ʑ/, ⟨ġ⟩ for /ʝ ɣʷ ɣ/, and ⟨ṙ⟩ for /ʁʷ ʁ/
⟨r⟩ for /rʷ r rʲ/, and ⟨l⟩ for /ɫʷ l ʎ/
⟨j⟩ for /j/, and ⟨w⟩ for /w/

Vowels are not marked phonemically but rather are marked phonetically, as indicated below:

⟨i ü y û u⟩ for [i y ɨ ɯ u]
⟨e ö ë ô o⟩ for [e ø ə ɤ o]
⟨ä a â å⟩ for [æ a ɑ ɒ]
⟨á⟩ for [aː]

Normally pitch accent is unmarked, but when marked it is marked by underlining the accented syllables.

Consonant frontness/palatalization and backness/rounding is normally marked via adjacent vowels, but when this is not sufficient to unambiguously mark consonant quality, vowel graphemes are inserted between the actual vowel and an adjacent consonant:

⟨i⟩ between a consonant and a vowel indicates that the consonant is palatalized when it would not be clear from the vowel.
⟨u⟩ between a consonant and a vowel indicates that the consonant is labialized when it would not be clear from the vowel.
⟨a⟩ between a consonant and a vowel indicates that the consonant is not palatalized or labialized when it would otherwise not be clear.

Examples of this orthography in action are as follows:

(Note that the following is out of date)

[orʷꜜkʰɒwo ɣʷaːꜜtʰɨtʼana eʎɸaməβa ʁɯnæꜜjeβɒrʷuχ]
/ə́rʷkʰa=wə ɣʷáːtʰɨ=tʼa=na əʎɸa=mə=βa ʁɨná-jə-βa-rʷɨχ/
Orkaåwo ghuátyt'ana elfamëva rhûnaäjevåruqh.

[tɕʰeꜜ jaːꜜnʷɒχɯvʲæna laɨrkʼətʰxaːdæfʲæm]
/tɕʰə́ jáːnʷa-χɨ=vʲa=na la-ɨrkʼətʰ-xaːn-da-fʲam/
Tse jánuåqhûväna layrk'ëtxádäfäm.

[tɕʰeꜜ ɣɒdzʷɒꜜχɑ ɣɒdzʷæꜜɕinwo ɲixɤχuwo sʷoꜜχɤvʲæna laβuɣʷømʲiɟi]
/tɕʰə́ ɣadzʷá-χa ɣadzʷá-ɕɨn=wə ɲɨxə-χɨ=wə sʷə́χə=vʲa=na la-βɨɣʷə-mʲɨ-ɟɨ/
Tse ghaådzåqhâ ghaådzäsinwo nixôqhuwo soqhôväna lavughömigi.

[ɸaꜜ jæɣʷtʰə əβuɣʷosʷæje]
/ɸá jaɣʷ=tʰə ə-βɨɣʷə-sʷa-jə/
Fa jäughtë ëvughousäje.

[tɕʰeꜜ okʷʼɒm əpʰaːxꜜsʷɒ sʷoꜜχɤvʲæna laβuɣʷømʲiɟi]
/tɕʰə́ ə-kʷʼam ə-pʰáːx-sʷa sʷə́χə=vʲa=na la-βɨɣʷə-mʲɨ-ɟɨ/
Tse ok'åam ëpáxså soqhôväna lavughömigi.

[tɕʰeꜜ xaːrʲꜜtsʰaːna zʷaːꜜlɯχɯxa laβuɣʷøɲeɟiʑi]
/tɕʰə́ xáːrʲ-tsʰaː=na zʷáːlɨ-χɨ=xa la-βɨɣʷə-ɲə-ɟɨ-ʑɨ/
Tse kháirtsána zuálûqhûkha lavughönegizi.

[ɟæꜜna tɕʰeꜜrʲi mijøꜜwo dzɯʁχɯ mimʲineꜜjømʷu]
/ɟá-na tɕʰə́=rʲɨ mɨ-jə́wə dzɨʁ-χɨ mɨ-mʲɨnə́-jə-mʷɨ/
Gäna tseri maijöwo dzûrhqhû maiminejömu.

[Travis B.]

Tse tsöwo mauk'ota qûnûqhû lat'ångäjömu.
[tɕʰeꜜ tɕʰøꜜwo mukʷʼoꜜtʰa qʰɯnɯχɯ latʼɒŋʷæꜜjømʷu]
/tɕʰə́ tɕʰə́=wə mɨ-kʷʼə́tʰa qʰɨnɨ-χɨ la-tʼaŋʷá-jə-mʷɨ/
1.SG 1.SG=GEN 3.SG.E.ABS-correct spell-NOMINAL.E 1.SG.NOM-finish-PFV.PST-3.SG.E.ACC
I finished my orthography.

[Travis B.]

Verbalizers

For the converse of nominalizers, there are also a couple verbalizers which are attached to nouns:

Generic action verbalizer	-xʷə
Quality stative verbalizer	-ŋʷa

[Travis B.]

Incorporation

Noun incorporation takes the form of directly attaching a noun stem to a verb stem where the noun stem qualifies the verb stem with a patientive or adverbial meaning. Note that the absolutive/nominative agreement marker precedes the incorporated noun stem, indicating that the noun stem is part of the verb complex itself and is not a separate absolutive case NP.

Take for instance,

Orkana elfa elöwoq'omysäjôqhá.
[orʷꜜkʰana eʎfa eʎøwoꜜqʷʼomɨsæjɤχaː]
/ə́rʷkʰa=na əʎɸa a-ʎəwə́-qʷʼəmɨ-sa-jə-χaː/
orc.D=ERG elf.A ABS.3.SG.E-axe-be.dead-CAUS-PFV.PST
The orc killed the elf with an axe. (Lit: The orc axe-killed the elf.)

[Travis B.]

Ghëbana nanugh sik'a läkaäri ëmokhönûqhâ.
[ɣəꜜbana nanuɣʷ ɕikʼa ʎæḱærʲi əmoꜜxʷøɲɯχɑ]
/ɣə́ba=na na-nɨɣʷ ɕɨkʼa ʎakʰa=rʲɨ ə-mə́xʷə-ɲə-χa/
sky.B=ERG ABS.3.PL.E-ten.thousand thing.E mankind.A=DAT ABS.3.PL.A-give-ERG.3.SG.B-up

Myvorh sik'a läkaäri ghëbamokhoqhûri maungågo.
[mɨβoʁʷ ɕikʼa ʎækʰærʲi ɣəꜜbamoꜜxʷoχɯrʲi muŋʷɒɡʷo]
/mɨ-βəʁʷ ɕɨkʼa ʎakʰa=rʲɨ ɣə́ba-mə́xʷə-χɨ=rʲɨ mɨ-ŋʷaɡʷə/
ABS.3.SG.E-NEG thing.E mankind.A=DAT sky.B-give-NOMINAL.E=DAT ABS.3.SG.E-exist

Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa.
[qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa qʷʼomɨsa]
/qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa qʷʼəmɨ-sa/
be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS be.dead-CAUS

[Travis B.]

On second thought, I am going to get rid of definiteness marking on nouns. However, definiteness can be implied by using unincorporated NP's in places where incorporation could also be used, e.g. as patients, instruments, or adverbials.

[Travis B.]

Okay, I change my mind again - I am going to keep definiteness, albeit with it being optional.