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[zompist]

And probably it was real lamb-- a lot of the inauthenticity problem is just bad local substitutions, and often the real stuff is available these days.

Actually, to quote the wiki:

In Greece, it is normally made with pork[6] or sometimes with chicken, whilst beef and lamb are also used in other countries.

Sorry if I wasn't clear: I was there, and Wikipedia wasn't. This was fifty years ago, before gyros was available here; and though it was basically the same thing, it wasn't called gyros, but doner ma pita.

[Ares Land]

I was in Greece about twelve years ago. IIRC they called it pita (I don't really remember) and the meat was lamb. I don't remember any pork variant (though I suppose there must have been one.)

Gyros is the cheapest, commonest kind of fast food in France. De call it grec (in ans around Paris) or kebab (in most other places.) Nobody knows what the meat is, though. Nobody really wants to know, either

[foxcatdog]

Sure american chinese food is better than say british cuisine in the sense it isn't vomit inducing. But i'm sure real chinese food is better (not that i've ever had it).

I've eaten bad Chinese food in China that was on a par with bad Chinese food in the USA. (I once walked out of a restaurant our tour guide had chosen for us for exactly this reason.) I've also had amazing Chinese food in both places--the main difference being that I paid considerably more for those dishes in the USA than I did in China. The striking difference to me between dining both places wasn't the quality but the selection: Naturally, the restaurants in China offered a slew of dishes which (for various reasons) you can't find in the USA.

I assume its even easier to get authentic chinese cuisine in America given the number of food videos i've seen there. Doesn't change the fact immigrants adapted Chinese food to Anglo tastes in these countries.

Over here, a good Chinese restaurant is one where you don't understand the menu and the customers are shouting in Mandarin.

That may be true in France. Here it depends what you like. I'm not a fan of traditional Cantonese-American food (which at this point is a century-and-a-half old--older than many "traditional" dishes served in China), but I have friends who are. They'd probably be disappointed with the food at your shouty-Mandarin restaurant.

And you're referring to exactly what i mean by American-Chinese cuisine.

[keenir]

Sure american chinese food is better than say british cuisine in the sense it isn't vomit inducing. But i'm sure real chinese food is better (not that i've ever had it).

I've eaten bad Chinese food in China that was on a par with bad Chinese food in the USA. (I once walked out of a restaurant our tour guide had chosen for us for exactly this reason.) I've also had amazing Chinese food in both places--the main difference being that I paid considerably more for those dishes in the USA than I did in China. The striking difference to me between dining both places wasn't the quality but the selection: Naturally, the restaurants in China offered a slew of dishes which (for various reasons) you can't find in the USA.

I assume its even easier to get authentic chinese cuisine in America given the number of food videos i've seen there. Doesn't change the fact immigrants adapted Chinese food to Anglo tastes in these countries.

oh the horror!

though that makes your dislike of British food even more puzzling...unless you seem to think of British food like Satan corrupting any foods and cuisines it comes into contact with.

Over here, a good Chinese restaurant is one where you don't understand the menu and the customers are shouting in Mandarin.

That may be true in France. Here it depends what you like. I'm not a fan of traditional Cantonese-American food (which at this point is a century-and-a-half old--older than many "traditional" dishes served in China), but I have friends who are. They'd probably be disappointed with the food at your shouty-Mandarin restaurant.

And you're referring to exactly what i mean by American-Chinese cuisine.

modified Cantonese food? gee, what do you think the Cantonese have been doing with all those Han and Mandarin (& Manchu etc) rulers over the centuries? why, modifying what the new lords brought into the Cantonese lands & modifying Cantonese foods to suit the tastebuds of their new lords.

[Travis B.]

Somehow I can't help but roll my eyes at the insistence that people X's Y-X food is inauthentic (and thus implied to be inferior).

[keenir]

Somehow I can't help but roll my eyes at the insistence that people X's Y-X food is inauthentic (and thus implied to be inferior).

I don't know if any participants in this discussion would say any food or cuisine is inferior...i think the closest any of us has come to actually defining the word "inauthentic" is this:

Not real cuisine equals unrefined or lacking expression

...which just requires us to know what "lacking expression" means.
(i mean, i know parts of the skull can and oft do get eaten in a number of cuisines, but I never thought our food needed to display expressiveness)


though yes, i do hold myself as one of the guilty party who collectively and individually have not defined "inauthentic"...though for my own part, its because I think the only inauthentic food is the plastic stuff that is purely decorative to look like food.

[Travis B.]

though yes, i do hold myself as one of the guilty party who collectively and individually have not defined "inauthentic"...though for my own part, its because I think the only inauthentic food is the plastic stuff that is purely decorative to look like food.

Now, some people do a damn good job at making plastic food!

[foxcatdog]

Somehow I can't help but roll my eyes at the insistence that people X's Y-X food is inauthentic (and thus implied to be inferior).

I don't know if any participants in this discussion would say any food or cuisine is inferior...i think the closest any of us has come to actually defining the word "inauthentic" is this:

Not real cuisine equals unrefined or lacking expression

...which just requires us to know what "lacking expression" means.
(i mean, i know parts of the skull can and oft do get eaten in a number of cuisines, but I never thought our food needed to display expressiveness)


though yes, i do hold myself as one of the guilty party who collectively and individually have not defined "inauthentic"...though for my own part, its because I think the only inauthentic food is the plastic stuff that is purely decorative to look like food.

Inauthentic = Not whats made in your home countries. I'm pretty sure in the context of anglo countries authentic means made better given the examples i had (i need to try mexican tacos or real chinese cuisine tho) but maybe in say Korea there adaptations or Japanese and Chinese cuisines are just as good
Unrefined or Lacking Expression = Anything without significant modifications after the cultivation stage or cooked with basic techniques and say no sauce (like steamed salmon in an oven). Cultivation at the higher ends probably counts as "Expression" see japanese expensive fruits or coffee or tea made in different countries and anything like say prosciutto, cheese or wine is part of a countries cuisine but isn't handled in say the restaurant proper other than selection. And sourcing good quality ingredients is part of the skills of running a restaurant which can make or break certain dishes (avocado or anything with raw meat/fish) but i don't think the average tomato made in italy is grown with italian specific methods.

[foxcatdog]

I've eaten bad Chinese food in China that was on a par with bad Chinese food in the USA. (I once walked out of a restaurant our tour guide had chosen for us for exactly this reason.) I've also had amazing Chinese food in both places--the main difference being that I paid considerably more for those dishes in the USA than I did in China. The striking difference to me between dining both places wasn't the quality but the selection: Naturally, the restaurants in China offered a slew of dishes which (for various reasons) you can't find in the USA.

I assume its even easier to get authentic chinese cuisine in America given the number of food videos i've seen there. Doesn't change the fact immigrants adapted Chinese food to Anglo tastes in these countries.

oh the horror!

though that makes your dislike of British food even more puzzling...unless you seem to think of British food like Satan corrupting any foods and cuisines it comes into contact with.

Actually i think that's American cuisine (not that it doesn't apply to an extent to all anglo countries but it usually originates in the US). Though its not like British people haven't made versions of other peoples cuisine (fish and chips, britsh curry and tikka masala the third of which is actually quite nice).

[Travis B.]

Inauthentic = Not whats made in your home countries. I'm pretty sure in the context of anglo countries authentic means made better given the examples i had (i need to try mexican tacos or real chinese cuisine tho) but maybe in say Korea there adaptations or Japanese and Chinese cuisines are just as good

In essence you're saying that the only good food a country (or shall I say, an English-speaking country, from what you indicate here, which implies a lot) can make is that which they can stamp their own protected designation of origin (PDO) on - and which, in the case of places like the US, Canada, and Australia is not a whole lot, since much of the food in such places originally came from somewhere else.

To me, PDO's can go straight to hell, every last one of them. They really are just a protectionist scheme that drives up prices and privileges the few who happen to own land in such-and-such place.

Unrefined or Lacking Expression = Anything without significant modifications after the cultivation stage or cooked with basic techniques and say no sauce (like steamed salmon in an oven). Cultivation at the higher ends probably counts as "Expression" see japanese expensive fruits or coffee or tea made in different countries and anything like say prosciutto, cheese or wine is part of a countries cuisine but isn't handled in say the restaurant proper other than selection. And sourcing good quality ingredients is part of the skills of running a restaurant which can make or break certain dishes (avocado or anything with raw meat/fish) but i don't think the average tomato made in italy is grown with italian specific methods.

Umm you have just completely redefined "unrefined", which in reality is just a snooty derogatory term that privileged people use to look down on whatever they feel like.

[foxcatdog]

Inauthentic = Not whats made in your home countries. I'm pretty sure in the context of anglo countries authentic means made better given the examples i had (i need to try mexican tacos or real chinese cuisine tho) but maybe in say Korea there adaptations or Japanese and Chinese cuisines are just as good

In essence you're saying that the only good food a country (or shall I say, an English-speaking country, from what you indicate here, which implies a lot) can make is that which they can stamp their own protected designation of origin (PDO) on - and which, in the case of places like the US, Canada, and Australia is not a whole lot, since much of the food in such places originally came from somewhere else.

To me, PDO's can go straight to hell, every last one of them. They really are just a protectionist scheme that drives up prices and privileges the few who happen to own land in such-and-such place.

I never said you can't get "authentic" cuisine outside of a given country. PDO doesn't exist outside the EU or UK but you can still get "Authentic" Italian food here (i dunno maybe there's some kinda giant conspiracy to convince everyone that a rogue grandma in Italy didn't invent the style of pizza Americans eat when not going to "Authentic" places) and maybe Pizza Prosciutto or Pizza Tartuffo wasn't invented in Italy but America in the 21st century but both use Italian ingredients like Prosciutto and Pancetta as opposed to Pizza Hawaiian or Vegorama and the former is generally made in a wood fired oven like in Naples. At least in Anglo countries different styles of cuisine are the result of different migrations the what is called "Authentic" here only started to emerge in the 21st century.

Unrefined or Lacking Expression = Anything without significant modifications after the cultivation stage or cooked with basic techniques and say no sauce (like steamed salmon in an oven). Cultivation at the higher ends probably counts as "Expression" see japanese expensive fruits or coffee or tea made in different countries and anything like say prosciutto, cheese or wine is part of a countries cuisine but isn't handled in say the restaurant proper other than selection. And sourcing good quality ingredients is part of the skills of running a restaurant which can make or break certain dishes (avocado or anything with raw meat/fish) but i don't think the average tomato made in italy is grown with italian specific methods.

Umm you have just completely redefined "unrefined", which in reality is just a snooty derogatory term that privileged people use to look down on whatever they feel like.

What do you think Unrefined means in the context of iron or coal? I don't care about pretentious usages of words.

[keenir]

Somehow I can't help but roll my eyes at the insistence that people X's Y-X food is inauthentic (and thus implied to be inferior).

I don't know if any participants in this discussion would say any food or cuisine is inferior...i think the closest any of us has come to actually defining the word "inauthentic" is this:

Not real cuisine equals unrefined or lacking expression

...which just requires us to know what "lacking expression" means.
(i mean, i know parts of the skull can and oft do get eaten in a number of cuisines, but I never thought our food needed to display expressiveness)

though yes, i do hold myself as one of the guilty party who collectively and individually have not defined "inauthentic"...though for my own part, its because I think the only inauthentic food is the plastic stuff that is purely decorative to look like food.

Inauthentic = Not whats made in your home countries.

ah, so you'd be willing to eat pawpaws and Three Sisters if I send it to you? its authentic in my country, to use your definition; and you say you only like authentic food.

Unrefined or Lacking Expression = Anything without significant modifications after the cultivation stage or cooked with basic techniques and say no sauce (like steamed salmon in an oven).

dear gods, do you think its as simple as that? the type of smoke you use, imparts a lot of different flavors...as well as whatever you prepare the salmon with (with or without stuffing it or scoring it & putting things in the cuts) before steaming it.

but i don't think the average tomato made in italy is grown with italian specific methods.

I'd wager an Italian farmer would argue otherwise. heck, a farmer in Naples would be insulted that you think theres no difference between him and a farmer in Milan.



ps: I sincerely do hope I'm mistaken in thinking I'm starting to sniff a whiff of Orientalism...basically, Anglo and English is bad, exotic lands make their own foods best, importing ingredients is sinful.

[keenir]

I never said you can't get "authentic" cuisine outside of a given country. PDO doesn't exist outside the EU or UK but you can still get "Authentic" Italian food here (i dunno maybe there's some kinda giant conspiracy to convince everyone that a rogue grandma in Italy didn't invent the style of pizza Americans eat when not going to "Authentic" places) and maybe Pizza Prosciutto or Pizza Tartuffo wasn't invented in Italy but America in the 21st century but both use Italian ingredients like Prosciutto and Pancetta as opposed to Pizza Hawaiian or Vegorama and is generally made in a wood fired oven like in Naples.

O.O

Are you shiteing me? (pardon my french).......have you ever actually been inside a pizza restaurant like Little Caesars, Papa Johns, Dominos, or just about anybody else? Hawaiian Pizza is most definately on their menus, and none of them have wood fired ovens.

At least in Anglo countries different styles of cuisine are the result of different migrations the what is called "Authentic" here only started to emerge in the 21st century.

and as Methos says, "And you adopt it as a lifestyle because it was trendy when you were a kid." read: its certainly important to you, however recent you say it is.

Unrefined or Lacking Expression = Anything without significant modifications after the cultivation stage or cooked with basic techniques and say no sauce (like steamed salmon in an oven). Cultivation at the higher ends probably counts as "Expression" see japanese expensive fruits or coffee or tea made in different countries and anything like say prosciutto, cheese or wine is part of a countries cuisine but isn't handled in say the restaurant proper other than selection. And sourcing good quality ingredients is part of the skills of running a restaurant which can make or break certain dishes (avocado or anything with raw meat/fish) but i don't think the average tomato made in italy is grown with italian specific methods.

Umm you have just completely redefined "unrefined", which in reality is just a snooty derogatory term that privileged people use to look down on whatever they feel like.

What do you think Unrefined means in the context of iron or coal? I don't care about pretentious usages of words.

nobody said anything about pretentious useages...you were just called a pretentious person. I'm pretty sure there's a difference...maybe.

[Travis B.]

ps: I sincerely do hope I'm mistaken in thinking I'm starting to sniff a whiff of Orientalism...basically, Anglo and English is bad, exotic lands make their own foods best, importing ingredients is sinful.

So I'm not the only one who has gotten this very impression...

[foxcatdog]

I don't know if any participants in this discussion would say any food or cuisine is inferior...i think the closest any of us has come to actually defining the word "inauthentic" is this:
...which just requires us to know what "lacking expression" means.
(i mean, i know parts of the skull can and oft do get eaten in a number of cuisines, but I never thought our food needed to display expressiveness)

though yes, i do hold myself as one of the guilty party who collectively and individually have not defined "inauthentic"...though for my own part, its because I think the only inauthentic food is the plastic stuff that is purely decorative to look like food.

Inauthentic = Not whats made in your home countries.

ah, so you'd be willing to eat pawpaws and Three Sisters if I send it to you? its authentic in my country, to use your definition; and you say you only like authentic food.

Cuisine of primitive peoples or even what ordinary people eat in premodern times or when impoverished is never mentioned i don't think Papua New Guineaneans who subsist of sugarcane (which tastes like sugar on it's own) or taro/yams is any good. Or that Nenets reindeer is good eating. Maybe Akutaq (and it also meets the minimun requirements for Refinement) tastes good but i don't think plain seal blubber would be any good. And Pumpkin is usually the best stuff you serve in a traditional roast here though i still don't eat it.

Unrefined or Lacking Expression = Anything without significant modifications after the cultivation stage or cooked with basic techniques and say no sauce (like steamed salmon in an oven).

dear gods, do you think its as simple as that? the type of smoke you use, imparts a lot of different flavors...as well as whatever you prepare the salmon with (with or without stuffing it or scoring it & putting things in the cuts) before steaming it.

None of which anyone considers outside of high end restaurants or protected designations. My oven doesn't have settings for different kinds of smoke (nor does it even apply when steaming). Also i would consider Smoked Salmon a refined product.

but i don't think the average tomato made in italy is grown with italian specific methods.

I'd wager an Italian farmer would argue otherwise. heck, a farmer in Naples would be insulted that you think theres no difference between him and a farmer in Milan.

Well i'll just have to try tomatoes in italy vs spain vs france when i go there.

ps: I sincerely do hope I'm mistaken in thinking I'm starting to sniff a whiff of Orientalism...basically, Anglo and English is bad, exotic lands make their own foods best, importing ingredients is sinful.

Frankly i've also set out to prove only Anglo cuisine (or perhaps Anglo and Continental Germanic) is bad and that other white countries have fine cuisine.

[keenir]

Inauthentic = Not whats made in your home countries.

ah, so you'd be willing to eat pawpaws and Three Sisters if I send it to you? its authentic in my country, to use your definition; and you say you only like authentic food.

Cuisine of primitive peoples[ or even what ordinary people

wow, and now you go from orientalism to colonialism, insulting the lowly non-ordinary peoples who need to be rescued from their worse-than-British diets.

eat in premodern times or when impoverished is never mentioned

never mentioned by whom? I can find lots of videos about what people ate in pre-modern and improvished times, as well as books.

i don't think Papua New Guineaneans who subsist of sugarcane (which tastes like sugar on it's own) or taro/yams is any good.

so the homeland of bananas doesn't have any good food, even with all the pigs they raise?

And Pumpkin is usually the best stuff you serve in a traditional roast here though i still don't eat it.

if that was your attempt to answer my question about Three Sisters, you still haven't answered it.

Unrefined or Lacking Expression = Anything without significant modifications after the cultivation stage or cooked with basic techniques and say no sauce (like steamed salmon in an oven).

dear gods, do you think its as simple as that? the type of smoke you use, imparts a lot of different flavors...as well as whatever you prepare the salmon with (with or without stuffing it or scoring it & putting things in the cuts) before steaming it.

None of which anyone considers outside of high end restaurants or protected designations.[/quote[

'high end restaurants'? are you referring to smoking causing flavors, or are you talking about scoring a salmon?

My oven doesn't have settings for different kinds of smoke (nor does it even apply when steaming).

I'm seriously trying not to laugh here. Have you seriously never had BBQ? with that (and I don't doubt a number of other cuisines around the world), the flavor of the smoked food changes depending on what kind of wood you use.

and yes, that includes pizza.

ps: I sincerely do hope I'm mistaken in thinking I'm starting to sniff a whiff of Orientalism...basically, Anglo and English is bad, exotic lands make their own foods best, importing ingredients is sinful.

Frankly i've also set out to prove only Anglo cuisine (or perhaps Anglo and Continental Germanic) is bad

I did say that. though I didn't think you'd use a word so mild as "bad".

and that other white countries have fine cuisine.

because you consider them foreign and exotic and not supposed to import spices or flavors or anything else from elsewhere. thats what impression I'm getting.

[foxcatdog]

I never said you can't get "authentic" cuisine outside of a given country. PDO doesn't exist outside the EU or UK but you can still get "Authentic" Italian food here (i dunno maybe there's some kinda giant conspiracy to convince everyone that a rogue grandma in Italy didn't invent the style of pizza Americans eat when not going to "Authentic" places) and maybe Pizza Prosciutto or Pizza Tartuffo wasn't invented in Italy but America in the 21st century but both use Italian ingredients like Prosciutto and Pancetta as opposed to Pizza Hawaiian or Vegorama and is generally made in a wood fired oven like in Naples.

O.O

Are you shiteing me? (pardon my french).......have you ever actually been inside a pizza restaurant like Little Caesars, Papa Johns, Dominos, or just about anybody else? Hawaiian Pizza is most definately on their menus, and none of them have wood fired ovens.

I reworded it to clarify

At least in Anglo countries different styles of cuisine are the result of different migrations the what is called "Authentic" here only started to emerge in the 21st century.

and as Methos says, "And you adopt it as a lifestyle because it was trendy when you were a kid." read: its certainly important to you, however recent you say it is.

Umm you have just completely redefined "unrefined", which in reality is just a snooty derogatory term that privileged people use to look down on whatever they feel like.

What do you think Unrefined means in the context of iron or coal? I don't care about pretentious usages of words.

nobody said anything about pretentious useages...you were just called a pretentious person. I'm pretty sure there's a difference...maybe.

Besides "Pretentiousness" Anglo countries are much fatter than say France or Italy and i think the difference is partly due to cuisine.

[keenir]

I never said you can't get "authentic" cuisine outside of a given country. PDO doesn't exist outside the EU or UK but you can still get "Authentic" Italian food here (i dunno maybe there's some kinda giant conspiracy to convince everyone that a rogue grandma in Italy didn't invent the style of pizza Americans eat when not going to "Authentic" places) and maybe Pizza Prosciutto or Pizza Tartuffo wasn't invented in Italy but America in the 21st century but both use Italian ingredients like Prosciutto and Pancetta as opposed to Pizza Hawaiian or Vegorama and is generally made in a wood fired oven like in Naples.

O.O
Are you shiteing me? (pardon my french).......have you ever actually been inside a pizza restaurant like Little Caesars, Papa Johns, Dominos, or just about anybody else? Hawaiian Pizza is most definately on their menus, and none of them have wood fired ovens.

I reworded it to clarify

*i goes to look*

nope, it doesn't improve your case any when you say

At least in Anglo countries different styles of cuisine are the result of different migrations the what is called "Authentic" here only started to emerge in the 21st century.

"migrations"?? My Welsh ancestors would love to drop you in a mine sometime and see how well you enjoy their authentic daily grind, food included in that.

At least in Anglo countries different styles of cuisine are the result of different migrations the what is called "Authentic" here only started to emerge in the 21st century.

and as Methos says, "And you adopt it as a lifestyle because it was trendy when you were a kid." read: its certainly important to you, however recent you say it is.

What do you think Unrefined means in the context of iron or coal? I don't care about pretentious usages of words.

nobody said anything about pretentious useages...you were just called a pretentious person. I'm pretty sure there's a difference...maybe.

Besides "Pretentiousness" Anglo countries are much fatter than say France or Italy and i think the difference is partly due to cuisine.

so now you're saying you're not only pretentous, but you're also a chunky individual? that doesn't actually reduce the severity of your comments of the orientalism and colonialism flavors.

[foxcatdog]

Maybe salmon or deer with american berries is nicer than most british cuisine. I suspect it is and which is why i think nordic cuisine would be better than it and german cuisine.

Premodern agriculturalists have access to less variety of foods than modern ones do and premodern hunter gatherers don't have access to the same consistency of ingredients.

Banana is nice i do admit but one of the worse things i ever remember having was a "pancake" in oceania which was to oil and only vaguely flavourful.

I do not like sweetcorn and maize fills the same role as any other grain tho i prefer rice. I have never tried climbing beans. I did answer your question partially and relevantly.

Which is not relevant in steaming and no i have never eaten bbq.

I never said Anglos couldn't cook just that the cuisine they have been given is bad.

[foxcatdog]

Besides saying that i literally didn't mean what you insinuated.

Did Americans eat "Authentic" Italian food before 21st century foodie culture?

I'm thin as a stick but statistics show anglo countries are amongst the fattest in the world.