Would YOUR concountry join the European Union?

[Curlyjimsam]

I was pondering the question today of how the people in my made-up countries might react to an organisation like the European Union. To be fair, it is unlikely they would ever considering joining the EU, given that they are (a) not in Europe, and (b) on another planet, but plausibly you could imagine the establishment of a similar supranational political/economic body that they may or may not be tempted to join.

Obviously the precise details of how such a union might work could affect attitudes quite a bit, but I think people in the Viksor would probably be pretty skeptical of the idea regardless. A bit simplistically, most political viewpoints there can be classified as either (1) Family-Clan-Nation (in summary, placing an emphasis on genetic and ethnic groupings as the basis of social organisation) or (2) Town-Lord-King (emphasising more the role of the state). The first might be described as more liberal democratic, and the second as somewhat authoritarian socialist. Neither has much room for internationalism, arguing respectively that the ultimate authority over the Viksorian people is either (1) the collective will of the Viksorian people themselves, or (2) the country's King. Any real or perceived attempt by other countries to impose policy is not likely to go down well.

The situation is further complicated by the fact that the Viksorians have historically been very racist, basically considering themselves undisputedly superior to other nations. Whilst things have got a lot better recently, there is still enough ethnonationalism floating around to make a union with other countries on equal terms basically unthinkable to many, quite independently of more refined political positions discussed above.

There is a bit of an internationalist movement in the Viksor, largely inspired by the New Alternative Party, a political party most active further to the east of the Ninibian continent, whose eventual goal is the elimination of national borders altogether. Whilst the NAP is very powerful in parts of Ninibia, Viksorian internationalists are something of a rare breed, and hold little sway over policy or wider public opinion.

What would your conpeople think of an EU-type organisation?

[Ælfwine]

Re: Title

Probably, considering the fictional country for my Slavic alt-lang, Pannonia, is indeed in Europe, and they would probably benefit massively for such an arrangement. That being said, such a union would not be without its detractors, particularly from the hard economic right and left.

[Pabappa]

People in my conworld never get beyond medieval technology because the population of the planet never gets beyond about 4 million and therefore technology develops much more slowly than it has in the past few millenia on Earth. For any of my countries, even the richest, to join the EU would mean a massive pot of free money for them and nothing they'd have to give in return.

But philosophically, I could definitely see this happening. Subumpam is sort of a micro-Europe, in that it has many small countries packed close together, and their cultures are closely related but also different enough to have conflicts and occasionally wars. And to the east of Subumpam is Paba, which is much larger but consists of just a single language group and therefore could be considered a micro-Russia. (There are minorities in Paba, but this just makes it even more like Russia.)

Subumpam is actually a recycled form of a previous conworld in which everything took place on Earth ... Subumpam is a rotated Europe, where west<---->east in Subumpam corresponds to south<------>north in Europe, and north<---->south in Subumpam corresponds to east<----->west in Europe. So some of the nations of Subumpam were once in Italy, Spain, Germany+France, etc .... though this was only at a time when the empire extended through most of Africa with the entire Sahara being just a single state.

If Subumpamese people wanted to join some supranational union they would probably consider themselves most at home in Europe because of similar phenotypes ... despite living at about 27°N, the Subumpamese closely resemble white people. (And in particular, they resemble Europeans, with dark hair most common in the West, rather than each nation being about the same).

Since Subumpam is itself a union of 11 states, they would find the EU familiar in many ways. But for the difference in size and technology, they would want to join as a bloc of their own, but failing that, would accept joining as a single state with 11 subdivisions inside it. This is what eventually happened when their embarrassing military history came to an end and were forced to submit to Paba.

[zompist]

Interesting question.

For Almea, the answer depends on the outcome of the Verdurian-Dhekhnami war in the 3500s. And though I have an idea for how that goes, I haven't worked out the geopolitical consequences.

However, the geography of Ereláe doesn't really facilitate a Europe-sized state. The steppeland in the middle would make any north-south union difficult. The natural groupings are east-west, either Eretald + Dhekhnam, or Xurno + Šura.

The EU can be seen as 1) a way to avoid intra-European wars, and 2) an attempt to counterbalance the US and China. So a planet's leading civilization is unlikely to create an EU-like structure; it would create a structure based on its own hegemony instead. An EU-like structure might thus fit an area prone to internal conflict but which could also be a large market in itself. That might fit the Bé, or Arcél as a whole.

[Salmoneus]

Well, it may depend on what 'a similar body' is, and what it does.

The Là (speakers of Rawàng Ata) would never accept a political confederacy with foreigners - other countries are govern by foreigners, and hence it would be absurd to confederate with them. However, they would generally agree with the concept of the free movement of people and services - if you can find a patron among the Là, that's between you and your patron, and nobody else's business - and they would at least consider the idea of a customs union. They wouldn't like it, because customs are vital to their economy, but they could be persuaded if they thought they were getting enough in return.

The Vajhorans would love to be part of a political and/or economic confederacy, with anyone. They are a vast and developed empire, and know that they would dominate any other country (at least, any country they know of so far). They would never yield theoretical sovereignty, but they'd happily establish close ties.

The Maqteans already live in a confederacy of city-states. They would be skeptical of larger and less developed nations joining, but they'd certainly consider it - the supranational confederation is their basic political framework.

The various countries of the West would be politically hostile - being quite nationalist and competitive - but ideologically amenable. Most of their countries either are now, or previously were, essentially federations of tribes, and providing that the princes and tribal elders retained most of their traditional rights, they'd have no conceptual difficulty with the creation of supranational courts and parliaments, if it could be shown to be in their interest.

Indeed, the Maqteans have already come quite a long way in negotiations with the Là and the Rhovarians (a Western nation), establishing a 'trilateral agreement' on free trading access to one another's ports and some sort of non-binding supranational arbitration system, as well as reduced customs on certain goods. The Là also have some trade harmonisation with petty states in their zone of control in Gureha.


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Back on Earth, nationalists would have ruled out EEC membership at least until the 1990s. Modernisation efforts and economic setbacks since then, and attempts to be more inviting to outside investment in finance and technology, have doubtless led to considerable debate over EU membership. I suspect they've never quite gotten around to it - but I think they probably joined EFTA in the mid-1990s. I'm not sure if they're in the EEA - they probably don't like the freedom of migration (there aren't that many of them...).

[mèþru]

@zompist Your description of Belšai in some ways reminds me more of the idea of an EU as a single, decentralised country than of Switzerland.

[elemtilas]

I was pondering the question today of how the people in my made-up countries might react to an organisation like the European Union. What would your conpeople think of an EU-type organisation?

An interesting question. As for The World, I don't think such a beast would be very palatable to many. On the surface, the ministers of many different countries might appreciate certain attractions of the "free trade" and "free movement of people across borders" and "transnational citizenship" and all the hype. But in reality, it's the dark underside that prompts the wise in council to examine closely but under no circumstances attempt or propose in real life to any ruler.

In the Eastlands, political-economic empires (for such the EU is) have risen and fallen and faded away. Several have been violently overthrown and some have equally violently reestablished themselves only to be utterly annihilated at a later date. Also, the Eastlands are home to several distinct races of people, cultures of these peoples and countries as well and they each have their own ideas on how things ought to be done and who ought to be doing them.

By numbers, and by just about any other measure, the Daine are in the majority and hold superiority of character. Men come next in overall prominence; and then various kindreds of Orcs and lesser kindreds of Men and so forth on down the line. Daine, historically, have not been well treated by the invasive species of Man and for long ages have suffered abuses at their hands. Their policy has generally been one of patience and forbearance, for they have long believed that, sooner or later, the good things that they taught to Men in their infancy would eventually blossom. Sadly, what the Daine have reaped in Men is largely crop after crop of thorns and briars. There are occasional roses, though. And sometimes a potato. But patience is wearing thin, and in some places (the Uttermost West) is already unraveling.

Daine in the East, even those who live in close association with Men, would hardly wholly approve of an EU-like imperium. Especially one with Men in control of not only economy but also jurisprudence and legislation. As it stands, the closest analog is the Empire of Auntimoany. The Empress of Men rules over not only her own country but also a small constellation of imperial lands whose status is economically bound but somewhat politically free. The political system of Auntimoany in some ways mimics England (an anointed Monarch, a semi-democratic Parliament, a reasonably independent judiciary, lots of ritual and pomp and circumcisions). But it is the Daine who deftly and subtly pull the strings. They, ultimately, have the money and the Hidden Queen has long laboured to put in place a political system which Men can govern but under higher ideals than most of them can conceive of. A sort of check and balance against their natural depravity. So far so good. Their policy has long been to preserve and build up what is best in Men, according to their nature, and to guide a/o bait them as circumstances demand.

Daine of other realms in the region believe that the Hidden Queen is playing a very dangerous gambit indeed. They hope she will succeed, but do not hold out much hope for success. The peoples of Harathalliê, Withwandiê and Dar Irenalliê are firmly set against any kind of political union with kingdoms of Men. They, especially the first, are extremely hesitant to engage in fully open trade either. Little to gain, too much to lose. The very idea of "open borders" is abhorrent and the idea of Men and Daine living in common is beyond strange. The thought processes, mindset, world view, spiritual maturity, moral compass, ethical lodestone and depth of understanding of Nature and what lies beyond mere Nature are, really, quite incompatible.

Men of other realms in the region both fear and respect the great powers (Harathalliê and Auntimoany). They fear the Daine in general because of what they can (and have) done in war and do not wish to see a repeat performance. They fear and envy the Daine's thaumolgical and technical progress. They are similarly mistrustful of Auntimoany for its economic & military prowess. It would be like a moth to the flame if Auntimoany proposed any kind of EU-like union in the East. They would find themselves irresistibly attracted, but the attraction would prove flamingly terminal. Few countries could withstand the dominance of Auntimoany. No one (except Auntimoany) would dare oppose the Daine realms. The smaller, weaker countries would find themselves bound within an empire of the Rock and a Hard Place.

I think if there were to be such a beast, and without considering how it could form in the first place, what you'd find is almost everyone invoking Article 50 as soon as they possibly could!

What seems to work best in the East is smaller blocs or alliances. Apart from the Empire, there is a cute little union of little kingdoms called the Heptarchy (notwithstanding there are only fix or six constituent members); the Daine realms form a natural fraternal union; beyond the East there is the Confederation of Wucar which brings together realms of Daine, Yttuun, Teyor, some Men and even some Orcs.

[zompist]

@zompist Your description of Belšai in some ways reminds me more of the idea of an EU as a single, decentralised country than of Switzerland.

That may be, but the scale doesn't fit! The entirety of Xengiman is only about the size of northern Europe (Belgium to Poland).

[Birdlang]

The concountries I made up probably wouldn’t,
They still practice ancient practices like ritual sacrifices of the weakened, paganism and nature worship (I don’t know if the EU doesn’t like this), and slavery, and have views that the EU probably would chastise them for. Plus, I don’t think alien birds and other aliens get along with foreigners to begin with, let alone people who don’t speak or understand their own native language and English pronunciation. I’m not sure how they’d get along unless somehow the EU was not opposed to their primitive culture. The technology they have for children’s toys, for example, is 60 years behind most children’s toys on earth, and the children don’t play with electronic or electric toys. I think they’d have to find a translator who could speak Pigeonese, Birdish, Bartalonian, Ssamaritians, Upsaclottian, Slarg, and other languages. Plus they would find the EU a bit too restrictive, especially the Bartalonians who have a totalitarian government which puts limits on everyday lives.
And politically,
The EU would be extremely hostile towards certain practices the aliens do. I’d worry about Article 50 as well. They don’t get along with most humans anyways. My alternate earth, I’m not sure how they would get along, but definitely much better since it’s close to the world as it is today.

[Curlyjimsam]

However, the geography of Ereláe doesn't really facilitate a Europe-sized state. The steppeland in the middle would make any north-south union difficult. The natural groupings are east-west, either Eretald + Dhekhnam, or Xurno + Šura.

Yes, I think geography would be a consideration for the Viksor too. They have neighbours to the north and to the east. Culturally they are most similar to the countries to the north, but these are also their former colonies who would be unlikely to want to join any union in which the Viksor would almost certainly be dominant. To the east are the countries of the Ichi region, which form a close cultural unit by themselves, so the Viksor would feel like a perpetual outsider in any political union; furthermore, the Viksor is larger than all of them put together, which could potentially put off both sides ("the bigger country is just going to dominate us" vs. "why should we be forced to act on equal terms with all those small countries?").

[Zaarin]

I haven't thought that far ahead yet (my alternate timeline has only made it to ~1480, though I've given thought to how things will progress into the 16th century, including inevitable war with Castile), but Tartessia will probably be very ambivalent to the EU. The Tartessians, being Semites and being non-Chalcedonian, have had a tendency to think of themselves as "not European," being on shaky terms with both their Catholic and Muslim neighbors (in 1480 they still have the Emirate of Granada next door, though not for much longer). On the other hand, Turkey is a member, so there's that, and in the end it will probably simply be in Tartessia's economic and political interests to join, grumbling all the while.

[mèþru]

Let's move that discussion to the elections thread
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I don't think any of the countries in my conworld are ready for the political ideas necessary to form such a union. In my current alternate history, the major economic players in Europe have integrated their colonies in a federal model, so the idea of an EU would make no sense for them. Some countries, such as Portugal and the Imperial Federation of Nations (which includes the UK, Ireland, Man and the Channel Islands) and maybe France and Germany, are mainly outside of Europe by population!

[zompist]

Let's move that discussion to the elections thread

Moved to Ephemera.

[Frislander]

I'm uncertain whether Frisland would join. I'm currently thinking that Frisland reappears sometime in the 19902/2000s, and by that point it's probably a little too late. Firstly you have the language barrier to be overcome, which will take years, even decades perhaps, and alongside this you have nearly a millennium and a half of history to update the islanders on, economically as well you have a massive gap, of a completely different order of magnitude compared to that of the former Warsaw Pact nations, seeing as Frisland likely doesn't even have a fixed currency when it rematerialises. There's probably no good ideological reason either, since Frisland due to its isolation doesn't share the same sense of "Europeanness", nor any sense of the need for European unity to prevent another war on the continent. There would be arguments from mutual security, though in that case they might as well join NATO.

mimics England... lots of ritual and pomp and circumcisions).

Actually circumsion is not routine in the UK like it is in America, here it's only done if you're Jewish, Muslim, or occasionally for genuine medical reasons (in my case phimosis).

[mèþru]

I can hardly see why they would need or want NATO either. Even harder to see is a reason for NATO accepting them, especially looking at the current focus on increasing the military contributions of non-American members.

[chris_notts]

I haven't fleshed out their political structures yet, but I imagined the speakers of Sint to be herders with limited technology practising vertical transhumance (i.e. summer grazing on higher ground, winter grazing on lower ground). They're culturally fairly unified and have various stable sub-polities (clans/tribes) but don't really have a functioning central government or completely stable boundaries. The lack of unity and infighting is the main reason they are increasingly losing control of their lowlands to more organised neighbours.

Since they're (a) not in Europe, (b) not unified, and (c) not democratic, I don't imagine there'd be much chance of them successfully joining the EU.

INTERESTING QUESTION: Would it even be possible for a country with (pre-)medieval technology levels to join the EU, or one where perhaps only the capital had "modern" levels of technology and the remaining rural population was living a traditional subsistence lifestyle?

Even if such a country were in Europe and democratic, I can't imagine that the EU acquis would be implementable in any meaningful sense by a mostly non-industrial civilisation.

EDIT: answering the question about similar bodies, the main issue is that raiding and conflict is deeply embedded in their culture. They can't even stay unified when facing an existential threat. The chances of them successfully staying members of a treaty based organisation are slim.

[Pabappa]

We have the Amish in the USA and they haven't dragged us down. Also, some were proposing making Germany a farm-only country after ww2 and although it didn't happen, presumably it wouldn't have made Europe that much poorer.

[chris_notts]

We have the Amish in the USA and they haven't dragged us down. Also, some were proposing making Germany a farm-only country after ww2 and although it didn't happen, presumably it wouldn't have made Europe that much poorer.

I wasn't thinking of dragging the EU down. What I meant was that most EU laws have been written assuming a certain level of technology, a basic shared economic model etc. Would it be possible to correctly apply EU food safety standards in the absence of refrigeration, accurate temperature measurements, a good supply of vets and modern veterinary science and a thousand other technical and scientific resources? Of course, a country with large "backward" areas could join the EU, but only if a blind eye was turned to the inability in practice to comply with a lot of rules until major economic upgrades could be implemented.

[Pedant]

What would your conpeople think of an EU-type organisation?

The Salvians probably wouldn’t like it much; they’re a bit like an India that’s united in the style of the US and gone out to establish the Dutch Empire. The people of the Holy Land are...well, different sects of the same religion fighting it out in the colonies, so that’s a possibility if they ever stop killing one another (or get told off enough by the rest of the world). The Trade Confederacy are already an EU of sorts, albeit one with a Chinese climate.

[mèþru]

You have too many colliding metaphors for me to make sense of what the Salvians are like