Venting thread

[bradrn]

I am sick and tired of seeing how xxx gets treated on the board.

If I may ask: what prompted this? I recall one argument involving xxx a while ago, but as far as I can see, there haven’t been any problems recently, and he’s been involved in discussions no differently than anyone else.

(Of course, his chosen writing style does sometimes make him a bit difficult to understand. As you rightly point out, he focusses on emic understanding for himself, rather than etic understanding for other people. But people have nonetheless been talking to him in good faith, from what I can see.)

[foxcatdog]

As far as i can tell xxx is an anglo psyop to make people hate esl's.

[Man in Space]

If I may ask: what prompted this? I recall one argument involving xxx a while ago, but as far as I can see, there haven’t been any problems recently, and he’s been involved in discussions no differently than anyone else.

The recent exchange in the Conlang fluency thread.

[xxx]

there is no offense,
on the fluency conlang thread it's interesting to have borderline discussions
to test the expressive capacities of one's language...

I positively take my share in the reaction of some,
it's both my bias to keep my conlang exotic,
and my willingness to try unconventional angles in approaching it...

and I understand why some people aren't happy with it,
with these constitutive elements of my project...

I like the opposition between emic and ethic,
but in conlanging the ethical side can only be a facade,
conlangs being and aiming to develop a vision of their own of the world....

and I do use conlanging as a psyop activity... on myself...

[Linguoboy]

I think I'm just going to start instablocking people who make posts to social media with just the caption "IYKYK"/"If you know you know". I don't know why it bothers me so much but it does.

[masako]

I am sick and tired of seeing how xxx gets treated on the board.

Maybe put everyone on ignore that does something you don't like? Will that improve your experience?

I am well aware of xxx’s unorthodox method of engagement on the board…but shouldn’t he be given the benefit of the doubt, especially with all the neurodiversity endemic to conlanging in general and this board in specific?

They've been here since 2018, the benefit of the doubt only goes so far, for so long. Neurodivergence is not an excuse to purposefully be obtuse, or feign the inability to communicate in commonly accepted ways. They know what they're doing, and from what I can see (I've seen their presence in multiple sites) this is not done as a consequence of any particular condition, but as a means to seem profound, poetic, or wise. It's infantile and annoying when there are literally hundreds of others on here that want to have a genuine exchange and learn about each other's creation(s). The garbage that they post in the CFT is tantamount to the scribblings of a 9 year old...and not a bright/insightful one.

Yeah, I’m pissed.

Good. You should be. Now go have a talk with them and see if you can get them to see our POV, or is that not important?

[xxx]

My goodness, the CFT is a great place to chat,
but it's hard to have erudite conversations in languages still in their swaddling clothes...
I don't feel like I'm the dumbest participant...

I'm very surprised that members of a constructed-language forum
have such a hard time with my ideographic Extended Latin,

especially you, masako, who are really interested at writing style...
and even take offense at a different use of language
you who regularly translate aphorisms...

I don't think I've ever failed to answer a question,
even if I don't want people to learn my conlang...
I don't think I'm the only one who hasn't given a monograph of his conlang here,

[bradrn]

My goodness, the CFT is a great place to chat,
but it's hard to have erudite conversations in languages still in their swaddling clothes...
I don't feel like I'm the dumbest participant...
I'm very surprised that members of a constructed-language forum
have such a hard time with my ideographic Extended Latin,
especially you, masako, who pokes fun at writing style...
and even take offense at a different use of language...

I think the problem is that you have a, let us say, somewhat unique style of communication (to put it mildly). Due to this, I often have trouble understanding what you’re trying to say, and I think others experience the same difficulty. If you could just explain your ideas more clearly, I suspect you would garner a much more positive reception.

[xxx]

My apologies, but my English is pretty poor
and I frequently slip in Gallicisms,

but I'm not always sure what I mean myself...
I do have a propensity to use English as my conlang
to try and find additional meaning to the banality of what I think I'm saying...

[bradrn]

I do have a propensity to use English as my conlang
to try and find additional meaning to the banality of what I think I'm saying...

I think this is the main thing which people are objecting to. Conlangs are personal: they may be good for expressing your own thoughts, but conversely, other people will have trouble understanding them. (And if you want proof of that, just look at the conlang translation relay.)

But also, consider this: there is really nothing wrong with banality! In some ways, you could say that all really clear communication is banal, in that it aims for simplicity and ease of understanding. Poetry may be great, but there is a time and a place for it.

[xxx]

I agree with that, the best part of the day is the one I spend in the forest with my dog...
banality is a branch that needs to be explored, especially in CFT...

but as long as we're producing meaning, we shouldn't skimp...
all the more so in a conlinguistic framework,
which I consider to be a branch of stylistics that blends the particular and the collective,
and where the aim is to innovate...

don't hesitate to ask me for any clarification you may need,
and I'll try to answer in the same way...

for my part too, I don't always grasp all the subtleties of certain posts, given my English,
but I don't mind imagining what they could mean, even if it means finding inspiration, which isn't always there...

I've taken part in a couple of conlang relays (the last one in LCC10...)
it's a big job formatting your conlang,
but it's true that the interest lies in the misunderstanding it generates...

lastly, most of my contributions here have been in CFT,
where my poor English is combined with the difficulty of translating from 3SDL,
especially in registers that are sometimes as specialized as (con)linguistics...
there, it's difficult to expect crystal-clear communication...

[masako]

My apologies, but my English is pretty poor
and I frequently slip in Gallicisms

I've studied French. I know French folks. I follow French speakers on multiple platforms. None of them follow every utterance with "...".

This type of lazy excuse diminishes any sort of empathy to almost absolute zero. Also, if you want folks to find your work interesting, you have to be willing and/or able to explain it at some level of comprehension. Other wise, the derision seems almost invited. You've been here for 5 years. Even longer when we consider the previous iterations of the board.

[Man in Space]

I've studied French. I know French folks. I follow French speakers on multiple platforms. None of them follow every utterance with "...".

No one’s saying that his “…” is a Gallicism.

Also, if you want folks to find your work interesting, you have to be willing and/or able to explain it at some level of comprehension.

Who says his aim is for others to find the work interesting? Maybe his aims are for self-actualisation. Is that not still art?

Someone on the Other Place (I want to say it was qwed?) did a “Language of the Desert” that revealed precious little, but it was still nonetheless a conlang. And I don’t hear you raising a stink about Janko, who comes by not to conlang but to collect.

I am sick and tired of seeing how xxx gets treated on the board.

Maybe put everyone on ignore that does something you don't like? Will that improve your experience?

no u. Seriously. If you have such a hard time with xxx, why don’t you block him instead of bitching about him?

I like you, masako, but it is for that very reason I will call you out if you act like a dickbag.

[masako]

No one’s saying that his “…” is a Gallicism.

Yeah, I got that. But it falls in line with his assertion that "his English is not so good", doesn't it? Or is that normal for anyone?

Who says his aim is for others to find the work interesting?

Are you seriously suggesting that him directly interacting with others is not an attempt to draw attention to his work? Are you being contrarian, or disingenuous?

Maybe his aims are for self-actualisation. Is that not still art?

Honestly, Galen, if you wanna discuss art, do that, but don't use a completely open-ended topic like art to distract/deflect/defend from what you should be very aware is a pattern of communication that is obviously less than optimal given this community and the generally accepted purpose of posting about creations. No one here really gives a flip if it's a personal conlang, artlang, heartlang, auxlang, etc. but to repeatedly post in difficult to parse ways and expect anyone not to ask questions is ridiculous.

Someone on the Other Place (I want to say it was qwed?) did a “Language of the Desert” that revealed precious little, but it was still nonetheless a conlang. And I don’t hear you raising a stink about Janko, who comes by not to conlang but to collect.

Not gonna play "whataboutism" with you on this.

If you have such a hard time with xxx, why don’t you block him instead of bitching about him?

Funny you say that. I do have him blocked, but his posts in the CFT are quite invasive and populate almost every page...kinda hard to miss, and sometimes necessary to read for context.

I like you, masako, but it is for that very reason I will call you out if you act like a dickbag.

What does calling me a "dickbag" accomplish, here?

[xxx]

I'm not sure what the problem is,
my punctuation,
my extended Latin logography,
my lack of gloss, my lack of explanation of the CFT on my conlang,
my bad English,
my overly pompous style
...
but please guys take it easy, there's no point arguing about it...
forget it...

[Man in Space]

No one’s saying that his “…” is a Gallicism.

Yeah, I got that. But it falls in line with his assertion that "his English is not so good", doesn't it? Or is that normal for anyone?

Yes, frequent use of ellipses is not a trait I have found unique to xxx.

Who says his aim is for others to find the work interesting?

Are you seriously suggesting that him directly interacting with others is not an attempt to draw attention to his work? Are you being contrarian, or disingenuous?

If I take a day trip to Montréal and speak French there, am I trying to draw attention to how wonderful I feel my French skills to be? xxx seems to like to keep the mechanics of 3DS or whatever close to the best and he’s frequently using it in the Conlang Conversation Thread (occasionally sharing a graphic, which, on that, you’d have a point).

Maybe his aims are for self-actualisation. Is that not still art?

Honestly, Galen, if you wanna discuss art, do that, but don't use a completely open-ended topic like art to distract/deflect/defend from what you should be very aware is a pattern of communication that is obviously less than optimal given this community and the generally accepted purpose of posting about creations. No one here really gives a flip if it's a personal conlang, artlang, heartlang, auxlang, etc. but to repeatedly post in difficult to parse ways and expect anyone not to ask questions is ridiculous.

Who is deflecting? People on the board are up in arms about how xxx comports himself here. They complain about his use of English, about the lack of explanation of his conlang, and about his conlang itself. There are three issues blended together.

To the first point: Some people on the Internet talk funny, for one or more reasons or another. Some do it as an affect, some do it because of the L2+, some don’t realize what they’re doing. Reading through xxx’s posts here and elsewhere I think he is worthy of compassion over it. (Even people who have spoken an L2 for decades can still have problems with or just not get some of it—my grandmother was like that when she was alive. She spoke English for about 70 years and still got tripped up and screwed up a lot, and it was not all ascribable to her advanced age.)

To the second and third points: Conlanging is an art. It is entirely salient to bring that up. xxx appears to have different aims and goals than others on the board with his conlang, and that’s fine.

Someone on the Other Place (I want to say it was qwed?) did a “Language of the Desert” that revealed precious little, but it was still nonetheless a conlang. And I don’t hear you raising a stink about Janko, who comes by not to conlang but to collect.

Not gonna play "whataboutism" with you on this.

Too bad, because it is entirely germane. qwed’s thread is decidedly nonstandard in how it explains the conlang. gestaltist had a very good observation in light of complaints regarding the presentation:

I know that qwed117 has more to show because he used to share parts of this project on IRC and what's posted here is far from the full picture. Whether he feels the full picture is presentable, though, is for him to answer.

Did qwed do a better job of it than xxx? By many metrics, yes. Doesn’t invalidate what xxx is doing.

If you have such a hard time with xxx, why don’t you block him instead of bitching about him?

Funny you say that. I do have him blocked, but his posts in the CFT are quite invasive and populate almost every page...kinda hard to miss, and sometimes necessary to read for context.

That’s the trade-off you make when you block somebody.

I like you, masako, but it is for that very reason I will call you out if you act like a dickbag.

What does calling me a "dickbag" accomplish, here?

It signals my continued and profound distress at your words and actions in an emotionally provocative manner because I feel very strongly about bullies and it seems that diplomacy isn’t having the desired results.

If zompist decides to kick xxx off the board, he has the authority to do so because it’s his board. He has so far not made any public indications to this end. If he does, then that is the paradigm that I will have to accept. As long as he does not, and as long as there isn’t any Bobbery or whatever, I’m going to support xxx.

[masako]

If I take a day trip to Montréal and speak French there, am I trying to draw attention to how wonderful I feel my French skills to be?

5 years + on the ZBB is not a day trip.

xxx appears to have different aims and goals than others on the board with his conlang, and that’s fine.

Yeah, I never said it wasn't.

Doesn’t invalidate what xxx is doing.

Who's invalidating?

It signals my continued and profound distress at your words and actions in an emotionally provocative manner because I feel very strongly about bullies and it seems that diplomacy isn’t having the desired results.

You and I apparently have very different ideas of what bullying is, and the best way to address it.

If zompist decides to kick xxx off the board, he has the authority to do so because it’s his board.

So much drama.

I'll leave you to it, but here's this too:

xposts.png (37.21 KiB) Viewed 20428 times

126 of his 300 posts look like this. If you think that's art, please, never open a museum.

[Man in Space]

If you think that's art, please, never open a museum.

So be it.

[WeepingElf]

What is all this bickeroo about? There is someone who posts bits of a "conlang" which he never reveals or explains, and looks like random gibberish, and also has an eccentric style of writing in English. So what? It is his personal way of playing with language, and if you can't make sense of it, you can ignore it. Like I have done all the time. We are all practitioners of a hobby that many if not most people feel to be eccentric, so we shouldn't go ballistic about someone who pursues it in a way that is especially eccentric even by our standards.

[Travis B.]

We are all practitioners of a hobby that many if not most people feel to be eccentric, so we shouldn't go ballistic about someone who pursues it in a way that is especially eccentric even by our standards.

Agreed.