War in the Middle East, again

[Ahzoh]

Frankly, I can't decide if this goes in here or the us politics thread (because both are relevant), but I saw this video by the Kavernacle about the rise of "woke fascism" or the use of progressive identity politics in service of illiberal policies.

[Travis B.]

Well it should be remembered that just because someone is opposed to teh Empire does not mean they are good or that they are even better than Amerika. Take the case of China, as has been mentioned repeatedly on here. If any country replaces the US as hegemon in the foreseeable feature it will be China, and for everything the US has done in the past (e.g. supporting numerous dictators during the Cold War), the fact of the matter is that China is just as imperialist as the US (and while they may have engaged in less imperialism in the past, that is merely for lack of opportunity), and for that matter they are engaging in settler colonialism right now while the US Is not.

[Ares Land]

Frankly, I can't decide if this goes in here or the us politics thread (because both are relevant), but I saw this video by the Kavernacle about the rise of "woke fascism" or the use of progressive identity politics in service of illiberal policies.

I'm very dubious of the 'woke' and 'identity politics' label.
I don't have time for videos (sorry!) but what is the idea? Apparently this about about 'woke fascism' supporting Israel? I also heard people argue for the opposite.

[Ahzoh]

Well it should be remembered that just because someone is opposed to teh Empire does not mean they are good or that they are even better than Amerika. Take the case of China, as has been mentioned repeatedly on here. If any country replaces the US as hegemon in the foreseeable feature it will be China, and for everything the US has done in the past (e.g. supporting numerous dictators during the Cold War), the fact of the matter is that China is just as imperialist as the US (and while they may have engaged in less imperialism in the past, that is merely for lack of opportunity), and for that matter they are engaging in settler colonialism right now while the US Is not.

What? This isn't about America vs. Russia or China, this about America (and Israel) using progressive politics based on identity to deceive people into supporting illiberal policies, such as suppression of speech or oppressing refugees/asylum seekers or needlessly bombing thousands of innocents/committing genocide because your government tells you that it's the only way to guarantee your rights (even though your government also wants to infringe on your rights). Basically the people on high trying to tell you you have more in common with them than the people they tell you are your enemies.

[Ahzoh]

Frankly, I can't decide if this goes in here or the us politics thread (because both are relevant), but I saw this video by the Kavernacle about the rise of "woke fascism" or the use of progressive identity politics in service of illiberal policies.

I'm very dubious of the 'woke' and 'identity politics' label.

Well it's from a leftist, so they're not using it as a brainless offhand for "progressive thing I don't like"

I don't have time for videos (sorry!) but what is the idea? Apparently this about about 'woke fascism' supporting Israel? I also heard people argue for the opposite.

I said this above:

...about America (and Israel) using progressive politics based on identity to deceive people into supporting illiberal policies, such as suppression of speech or oppressing refugees/asylum seekers or needlessly bombing thousands of innocents/committing genocide because your government tells you that it's the only way to guarantee your rights (even though your government also wants to infringe on your rights). Basically the people on high trying to tell you you have more in common with them than the people they tell you are your enemies.

The perfect example is the IDF soldier mentioned in the video holding an LGBT flag amidst some Gazan ruins that says "in the name of love". Yes, killing thousands in "the name of love"... but this same IDF soldier admits in a later interview to also being afraid of Netanyahu's policies against the LGBT. Yet they're still willing to contribute to his war (or genocide) because his government tells them that Palestinians want to take their rights away.

[Travis B.]

Well it should be remembered that just because someone is opposed to teh Empire does not mean they are good or that they are even better than Amerika. Take the case of China, as has been mentioned repeatedly on here. If any country replaces the US as hegemon in the foreseeable feature it will be China, and for everything the US has done in the past (e.g. supporting numerous dictators during the Cold War), the fact of the matter is that China is just as imperialist as the US (and while they may have engaged in less imperialism in the past, that is merely for lack of opportunity), and for that matter they are engaging in settler colonialism right now while the US Is not.

What? This isn't about America vs. Russia or China, this about America (and Israel) using progressive politics based on identity to deceive people into supporting illiberal policies, such as suppression of speech or oppressing refugees/asylum seekers or needlessly bombing thousands of innocents/committing genocide because your government tells you that it's the only way to guarantee your rights (even though your government also wants to infringe on your rights). Basically the people on high trying to tell you you have more in common with them than the people they tell you are your enemies.

As a matter of habit I avoid Youtube links because I hate sitting through spiels -- the main things I use Youtube for are music videos and demos of computing-related stuff (and even then I only do so sparingly in the latter case), so I thought you were referring to leftist third world-ism where left-wing politics are used to support governments which are actually anything but progressive in the name of opposing Amerika.

[Travis B.]

Frankly, I can't decide if this goes in here or the us politics thread (because both are relevant), but I saw this video by the Kavernacle about the rise of "woke fascism" or the use of progressive identity politics in service of illiberal policies.

I'm very dubious of the 'woke' and 'identity politics' label.

Well it's from a leftist, so they're not using it as a brainless offhand for "progressive thing I don't like"

I don't have time for videos (sorry!) but what is the idea? Apparently this about about 'woke fascism' supporting Israel? I also heard people argue for the opposite.

I said this above:

...about America (and Israel) using progressive politics based on identity to deceive people into supporting illiberal policies, such as suppression of speech or oppressing refugees/asylum seekers or needlessly bombing thousands of innocents/committing genocide because your government tells you that it's the only way to guarantee your rights (even though your government also wants to infringe on your rights). Basically the people on high trying to tell you you have more in common with them than the people they tell you are your enemies.

The perfect example is the IDF soldier mentioned in the video holding an LGBT flag amidst some Gazan ruins that says "in the name of love". Yes, killing thousands in "the name of love"... but this same IDF soldier admits in a later interview to also being afraid of Netanyahu's policies against the LGBT. Yet they're still willing to contribute to his war (or genocide) because his government tells them that Palestinians want to take their rights away.

I see very little leftist/progressive support for Israel at the present. If anything, what I see is leftists and progressives turning a blind eye to Hamas because what Israel is doing is far worse in magnitude than what Hamas did (while conveniently forgetting that the only reason Hamas killed ~1200 on October 7th is that that is as many as they could kill, not because they did not want to kill more).

[Ares Land]

Well it's from a leftist, so they're not using it as a brainless offhand for "progressive thing I don't like"

The brainless use is so common I'm afraid using either term about instantly loses my attention

...about America (and Israel) using progressive politics based on identity to deceive people into supporting illiberal policies, such as suppression of speech or oppressing refugees/asylum seekers or needlessly bombing thousands of innocents/committing genocide because your government tells you that it's the only way to guarantee your rights (even though your government also wants to infringe on your rights). Basically the people on high trying to tell you you have more in common with them than the people they tell you are your enemies.

That, on the other hand, is very familiar. Very often this targets Muslims. I see it happen here in France very frequently (given the Muslim minorities and refugees). You often hear that from people who aren't exactly progressive luminaries on feminism or LGBT rights themselves.

[Ahzoh]

As a matter of habit I avoid Youtube links because I hate sitting through spiels -- the main things I use Youtube for are music videos and demos of computing-related stuff (and even then I only do so sparingly in the latter case), so I thought you were referring to leftist third world-ism where left-wing politics are used to support governments which are actually anything but progressive in the name of opposing Amerika.

Maybe it's not a good idea to comment on things before you've watched/read it. This is like someone taking a scientific article and claiming it supports their view when in reality the article completely contradicts them.

[Ahzoh]

I see very little leftist/progressive support for Israel at the present. If anything, what I see is leftists and progressives turning a blind eye to Hamas because what Israel is doing is far worse in magnitude than what Hamas did (while conveniently forgetting that the only reason Hamas killed ~1200 on October 7th is that that is as many as they could kill, not because they did not want to kill more).

Nobody is "turning a blind eye", most people (aside from a few hundred braindead nutjobs) are not saying Hamas are the good guys. In fact, every open critic of Israel basically has had to also say they also condemn Hamas before continuing their criticism of Israel. Nobody is conveniently forgetting anything. Nobody has any illusions that Hamas is in any way justified in what they did or that they wouldn't have killed more. If anything, they have contributed to the genocide of their own people by doing what they did. By giving Israel an excuse to genocide Palestinians in Gaza.

BUT two wrongs don't make a right and now Israel has met Hamas' killcount tenfold or more and it's not because it's out of their hands, they're just not really trying to minimize civilian casualties. Because they don't actually care. Every Palestinian man, woman, and child is a Hamas terrorist to them. Even the ex-hostages and families of hostages are saying that the government doesn't care about rescuing the hostages anymore.

And If, If, I was a conspiracy theorist, I might even suggest Israel (the government/state/military) almost let the Oct attack happen so they'd have an excuse to wipe out all of Gaza and settle people there. (When the attack first happened questions were raised about how Hamas managed to smuggle bulldozers into Gaza unnoticed or why certain undamaged IDF alert systems did not activate when they normally would)

But it is more likely that Israel simply just wants to wipe out Gaza in disproportionate retribution.

[Ahzoh]

You often hear that from people who aren't exactly progressive luminaries on feminism or LGBT rights themselves.

The phrase "scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds" proves to be more and more true.

[Travis B.]

Well it's from a leftist, so they're not using it as a brainless offhand for "progressive thing I don't like"

The brainless use is so common I'm afraid using either term about instantly loses my attention

Same here.

...about America (and Israel) using progressive politics based on identity to deceive people into supporting illiberal policies, such as suppression of speech or oppressing refugees/asylum seekers or needlessly bombing thousands of innocents/committing genocide because your government tells you that it's the only way to guarantee your rights (even though your government also wants to infringe on your rights). Basically the people on high trying to tell you you have more in common with them than the people they tell you are your enemies.

That, on the other hand, is very familiar. Very often this targets Muslims. I see it happen here in France very frequently (given the Muslim minorities and refugees). You often hear that from people who aren't exactly progressive luminaries on feminism or LGBT rights themselves.

This reminds me of someone I know who considers themselves a feminist -- she dunks on Muslims to no end because of this kind of thing (in addition to essentially believing in collective responsibility, where all Muslims are responsible for what some Muslims do (and all men are responsible for what some men do)).

[Ahzoh]

Well it's from a leftist, so they're not using it as a brainless offhand for "progressive thing I don't like"

The brainless use is so common I'm afraid using either term about instantly loses my attention

Same here.

Well the guy had a small blurb explaining why he described it as woke fascism explaining he was using woke in the sense of "insincere or deceptive reference to/use of progressive politics", e.g. wokewashing

This reminds me of someone I know who considers themselves a feminist -- she dunks on Muslims to no end because of this kind of thing (in addition to essentially believing in collective responsibility, where all Muslims are responsible for what some Muslims do (and all men are responsible for what some men do)).

Relatedly but unrelatedly, my mum has become awfully TERFy lately =(

[Travis B.]

This reminds me of someone I know who considers themselves a feminist -- she dunks on Muslims to no end because of this kind of thing (in addition to essentially believing in collective responsibility, where all Muslims are responsible for what some Muslims do (and all men are responsible for what some men do)).

Relatedly but unrelatedly, my mum has become awfully TERFy lately =(

Yeah, this person is awfully TERFy too. One thing that is weird, though, is that she sees Muslims in the US as "normal" people (for instance her daughter lives in a neighborhood here in the US with many Muslims in it and she does not dunk on them at all), but Muslims overseas... well in her mind the fact that they haven't emigrated to America yet means that at some level they condone what other Muslims do.

[Ares Land]

You often hear that from people who aren't exactly progressive luminaries on feminism or LGBT rights themselves.

The phrase "scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds" proves to be more and more true.

I was really thinking of conservatives. Not that left-leaning folks are entirely blameless, but conservatives are a lot worse.
So you'll have people condemning Muslims for sexism and homophobia while having very regressive views besides.

Yeah, this person is awfully TERFy too. One thing that is weird, though, is that she sees Muslims in the US as "normal" people (for instance her daughter lives in a neighborhood here in the US with many Muslims in it and she does not dunk on them at all), but Muslims overseas... well in her mind the fact that they haven't emigrated to America yet means that at some level they condone what other Muslims do.

I think familiarity helps a little; many of the 'anti-Muslim' folks I know are perfectly able to act decently with Muslims they personally know -- though sometimes the bigotry shows.

This reminds me of someone I know who considers themselves a feminist -- she dunks on Muslims to no end because of this kind of thing (in addition to essentially believing in collective responsibility, where all Muslims are responsible for what some Muslims do (and all men are responsible for what some men do)).

Yeah, I've seen that sort of thing a lot. There's quite a mess of hypocrisy and complete blindness to both your own culture and other cultures. (IME agnostic French people are about exactly as sexist as practicing Muslim Moroccans, no more, no less.)

[Raphael]

You often hear that from people who aren't exactly progressive luminaries on feminism or LGBT rights themselves.

The phrase "scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds" proves to be more and more true.

I was really thinking of conservatives. Not that left-leaning folks are entirely blameless, but conservatives are a lot worse.
So you'll have people condemning Muslims for sexism and homophobia while having very regressive views besides.

Yeah, this person is awfully TERFy too. One thing that is weird, though, is that she sees Muslims in the US as "normal" people (for instance her daughter lives in a neighborhood here in the US with many Muslims in it and she does not dunk on them at all), but Muslims overseas... well in her mind the fact that they haven't emigrated to America yet means that at some level they condone what other Muslims do.

I think familiarity helps a little; many of the 'anti-Muslim' folks I know are perfectly able to act decently with Muslims they personally know -- though sometimes the bigotry shows.

This reminds me of someone I know who considers themselves a feminist -- she dunks on Muslims to no end because of this kind of thing (in addition to essentially believing in collective responsibility, where all Muslims are responsible for what some Muslims do (and all men are responsible for what some men do)).

Yeah, I've seen that sort of thing a lot. There's quite a mess of hypocrisy and complete blindness to both your own culture and other cultures. (IME agnostic French people are about exactly as sexist as practicing Muslim Moroccans, no more, no less.)

This reminds me, I have a shameful admission to make: I used to be quite islamophobic - people who were on the old ZBB for long enough might remember some of the things I posted in that direction - and back then, my motive was simply that I saw Muslims mainly as a subsection of the world's religious conservatives, and I was - and still am - very opposed to religious conservatism. Anyway, I eventually decided that just because I strongly disagree with most of the world's Muslims on a number of issues that are pretty important to me, that's still no justification for bigotry against them.

[Linguoboy]

BUT two wrongs don't make a right and now Israel has met Hamas' killcount tenfold or more and it's not because it's out of their hands, they're just not really trying to minimize civilian casualties. Because they don't actually care. Every Palestinian man, woman, and child is a Hamas terrorist to them. Even the ex-hostages and families of hostages are saying that the government doesn't care about rescuing the hostages anymore.

It's nearly 30-fold at this point.

As for the hostages, the Israelis just carried out a "successful" operation to rescue four of them. It only cost the lives of one member of the IDF and roughly 274 Palestinians. At this rate, it will only take them another 15 years to rescue those remaining in captivity at a cost of 120 IDF members and another 34,000 Palestinian dead. A bargain at half the price.

[bradrn]

As for the hostages, the Israelis just carried out a "successful" operation to rescue four of them. It only cost the lives of one member of the IDF and roughly 274 Palestinians. At this rate, it will only take them another 15 years to rescue those remaining in captivity at a cost of 120 IDF members and another 34,000 Palestinian dead. A bargain at half the price.

I don’t know how I feel about this.

It is excellent that four hostages were released from unspeakable brutality. It is horrific that 274 people were killed. Beyond these raw facts, I do not feel able to make any definite judgement. For one thing, I don’t know how many of those 274 people were civilians, and how many were armed members of Hamas. That makes a difference: ‘274 soldiers killed to rescue hostages’ is a just battle, but ‘274 civilians killed to rescue hostages’ is an atrocity. Probably the truth is somewhere between the two, like so many things in war. Like I said, I don’t know how to feel.

Either way, this can’t go on. Hamas must accept the ceasefire deal which has been offered.

[Linguoboy]

It is excellent that four hostages were released from unspeakable brutality. It is horrific that 274 people were killed. Beyond these raw facts, I do not feel able to make any definite judgement. For one thing, I don’t know how many of those 274 people were civilians, and how many were armed members of Hamas.

Have you bothered to find out? Because reporters did (despite Israeli efforts to prevent them). They spoke with dozens of eyewitnesses who were present in Nuseirat at the time or who worked in hospitals where the casualties were brought, and their testimonies are horrifying.

Israeli forces bombed an open air public market in a refugee camp in the middle of the day. (Not "by mistake", but as a preplanned exercise.) What do you expect the results of that to be?

‘274 civilians killed to rescue hostages’ is an atrocity. Probably the truth is somewhere between the two, like so many things in war.

So how many civilians killed before it becomes an atrocity? This isn't a rhetorical question; it's a practical one. As far as I can see, there is no upper limit on how many innocent people the Israeli government is willing to slaughter in order to achieve its goals, whatever those happen to be. And they won't be "lectured" on this topic. The only people who seem able to hold them to account are the Israeli citizenry. So we need people like you and your relatives there to find their moral centre and then act on it.

I'm glad you're at least conflicted on this. Most Israelis don't seem to be, given the tone of their celebrations. I know I have a strong urge towards self-preservation, but I'd like to think I'd feel some qualms at discovering that more than 250 people were killed in order to free me from captivity.

Either way, this can’t go on. Hamas must accept the ceasefire deal which has been offered.

Must they? When the Israeli government has been signalling all along that it won't abide by its terms? That's the US government's official line, so I guess it must be correct. They've made every right call during this conflict so far.

[Linguoboy]

Here's simply one set of accounts, from personnel working for Médecins Sans Frontières in Gaza:

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-p ... r-bombings

As I say above, I don't know how anyone can read these accounts and conclude that the Israeli military has any concern for Palestinian casualties whatsoever.