Dude. Not OK.rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:28 amDo you want me to pull out unfortunate Talmud references? I really don't want to do it.
This is veering dangerously close to antisemitism; I say this knowing you don't want to go there.
Dude. Not OK.rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:28 amDo you want me to pull out unfortunate Talmud references? I really don't want to do it.
I can’t quite believe I have to make this point clear, but which references they pick matter. They could have instead highlighted one of the innumerable hadiths about peace and love and so on and so forth… but they didn’t. Instead, they picked one of the most violently antisemitic comments in the whole of Islamic tradition. That may not say much about Islam, but it sure says a lot about Hamas.rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:28 amDo you want me to pull out unfortunate Talmud references? I really don't want to do it.
bradrn was quoting this in context, and speaking about the Hamas charter.rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:37 amWhy is Antisemitism worse than Islamophobia? I don't see where you showed a similar reaction to bradrn.
I do not support Hamas. They were an unjust organization from the beginning that tried to recruit followers by stoking resentment against the ethnicity their attackers. The only thing I meant to say is that they did not specialize in terrorism at the outset. Look, the Nazis had a birdwatcher's club. Even though this was an evil organization, the birdwatcher's club, as an organization, was not a paramilitary unit.bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:49 am I can’t quite believe I have to make this point clear, but which references they pick matter. They could have instead highlighted one of the innumerable hadiths about peace and love and so on and so forth… but they didn’t. Instead, they picked one of the most violently antisemitic comments in the whole of Islamic tradition. That may not say much about Islam, but it sure says a lot about Hamas.
(And the same applies to the Talmud, of course. There’s a lot of stuff there, and if you choose to highlight the few nasty comments, that says more about you than about the entirety of Jewish tradition.)
Did you not read the post where I quite clearly showed their endorsement of terrorism at the outset?rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 5:05 am The only thing I meant to say is that they did not specialize in terrorism at the outset.
And the point of this is… what, exactly? Does it excuse the Nazis in any way, shape or form? No. It does not. The only reason I can possibly imagine someone making a big deal of this point is if they’re a Nazi apologist. (‘See? The Nazis weren’t totally evil, they spent a lot of time running social events!’)rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 5:05 am Look, the Nazis had a birdwatcher's club. Even though this was an evil organization, the birdwatcher's club, as an organization, was not a paramilitary unit.
And yet, you seem to spend quite a lot of time defending their organisation…rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 5:05 am This is not an endorsement of the activities of Hamas.
It was out of context. An organization that mentions judgment day legends of doubtful authenticity does not necessarily specialize in terrorism. This does not give legitimacy to the organization. All it does is give hope for eventual de-radicalization.
They are not all made up. I have linked to one before that Jews know about and accept. I have never mentioned it in the context of Israel.
Ok, maybe this phrasing will work:bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 5:16 amDid you not read the post where I quite clearly showed their endorsement of terrorism at the outset?rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 5:05 am The only thing I meant to say is that they did not specialize in terrorism at the outset.
And the point of this is… what, exactly? Does it excuse the Nazis in any way, shape or form? No. It does not. The only reason I can possibly imagine someone making a big deal of this point is if they’re a Nazi apologist. (‘See? The Nazis weren’t totally evil, they spent a lot of time running social events!’)rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 5:05 am Look, the Nazis had a birdwatcher's club. Even though this was an evil organization, the birdwatcher's club, as an organization, was not a paramilitary unit.
You have defended the IDF in this thread way more than I have ever defended Hamas. At the start of this conflict (as you will see if you look up my posts in this thread), I said my best case scenario is Hamas being quickly wiped out, but I was afraid that Netanyahu was going to commit war crimes to show that he's defending Israel while dragging out the conflict indefinitely.
Tell you what, I searched for it and couldn't find it. But anyway, I suggest you go read a bit on the Talmud, and how it's used by the crassest sort of antisemites, begin with 'The Talmud Unmasked'. You might learn a few things.rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 5:26 am
They are not all made up. I have linked to one before that Jews know about and accept. I have never mentioned it in the context of Israel.
I don't know about Netanyahu. He allied with Ben Gvir fully aware of what he was... At this point the possible explanation is that he either wants a genocidal terror state, or that he doesn't care if Israel turns genocidal as long as he's still PM.bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 4:00 pm Secondly, re ‘turning Israel into a genocidal terror state’: Ben Gvir wants that, and Smotrich wants that. Netanyahu, as far as we can tell, does not (however bankrupt his sense of morality is in every other way). Indeed, it seems that he’s been taking enormous effort to minimise Ben Gvir’s influence, though of course it would have been more moral to not ally with these monsters in the first place.
guess for zionism full ethnic cleansing really is the only solution, huh?bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 3:27 am And — even accepting the premises here, which I don’t — would this really stop Hamas from doing terrorist stuff? More likely they’d say, ‘wow, look at what our terrorism achieved, let’s terrorise even harder until we reach our goal of expelling or murdering every last Jew’
The latter.Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 8:45 amI don't know about Netanyahu. He allied with Ben Gvir fully aware of what he was... At this point the possible explanation is that he either wants a genocidal terror state, or that he doesn't care if Israel turns genocidal as long as he's still PM.bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 4:00 pm Secondly, re ‘turning Israel into a genocidal terror state’: Ben Gvir wants that, and Smotrich wants that. Netanyahu, as far as we can tell, does not (however bankrupt his sense of morality is in every other way). Indeed, it seems that he’s been taking enormous effort to minimise Ben Gvir’s influence, though of course it would have been more moral to not ally with these monsters in the first place.
No, of course not. A war against Hamas is not automatically a genocide. Indeed, the current war is not a genocide, no matter how often you say otherwise.Torco wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 9:05 amguess for zionism full ethnic cleansing really is the only solution, huh?bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 3:27 am And — even accepting the premises here, which I don’t — would this really stop Hamas from doing terrorist stuff? More likely they’d say, ‘wow, look at what our terrorism achieved, let’s terrorise even harder until we reach our goal of expelling or murdering every last Jew’
‘Civilian infrastructure’ is too vague to discuss sensibly, see below for specifics.
Famine Review Committee: ‘[…] the response in the nutrition, water sanitation and hygiene (WASH) and health sectors was scaled up. In this context, the available evidence does not indicate that Famine is currently occurring.’if food aid is denied entry to the territories where people need it as a result of acts of war (which israel routinely does) […] if water is denied to those civilians as a result of acts of war (which israel routinely does) […] if 97% of the civilian population of some invaded area don't get enough food as a result of acts of war (which is the case now)
And if those hospitals etc. are routinely repurposed by Hamas as headquarters, weapon stores and rocket launch sites?if hospitals and other places where civilians wounded by acts of war are denied supplies or destroyed by a belligerant (which israel routinely does)
Now we’re no longer talking about Gaza, but about the West Bank, where the situation is very different. For one thing, that’s not where the war is.if people from the dispreferred group are forcibly evicted from their homes so that people from the preferred group can live there instead (which israel routinely does), if children from the dispreferred group are subject to decade-long incarceration for things like throwing stones (which israel routinely does)
Given my previous posts, it should be clear by now that Israeli politics is very divided, even within the governing coalition itself. And then there’s the fact that the IDF has a certain independence from the government. Lumping them all together as a single entity just doesn’t work.if high officials in the government doing those acts explicitly say that the intention of those acts is to achieve a future state of affairs where no members of the dispreferred group remain in a given territory (which routinely happens), or when those same officials state such things as all civilians are valid military targets (which routinely happens), or when the big poobah refers to the dispreferred group as Amalek (you know, the guys god commants the israelites to exterminate fully, and gets angry cause Saul spares some, in the bible, which netanyahu did do)..
No, of course Israel is not immune from the accusation. If Netanyahu’s cronies had more influence on the IDF than they already do, then I’d probably be making the accusation myself. But your arguments are either incorrect, or missing the critical context which justifies the IDF’s actions in terms of international law.at some point in there the conditions obtain, would say any impartial observer. "that point hasn't been reached" is... well... a position, but there's gotta be some point at which they do, no? is israel just a priori immune from the accusation ?
that a genocidal act makes tactical, operational or strategic sense militarily, that is relevant to whether it is, in fact, a genocidal act ? the act is unequivocally a war crime, despite comparable warcrimes by hamas in fact having been commited. two warcrimes don't make a not-warcrimeAnd if those hospitals etc. are routinely repurposed by Hamas as headquarters, weapon stores and rocket launch sites?
So? all that means is that the government doesn't have the full support of the military in order to carry out the genocidal project, but... that just makes it a -to such degree- incompetently executed one. they at somewhat support said project: for every measured statement from a general there are ten videos of idf soldiers expressing, without reservation, genocidal intent.Or, in other words, just because Ben Gvir says something idiotic, doesn’t make it army policy. You need to look at statements from IDF leadership, which have been noticeably more sane than those from the fringes of the government (or even from Netanyahu himself).
Correction: despite the effort of far-right protesters. Plenty of Zionists (such as myself) advocate for more aid. I don’t like being grouped with the idiots who behave otherwise.
Hmm, OK. Of course I vehemently disagree with this position too, but thanks for clarifying your views.on the west bank think, my position is that the genocide did not, in fact, begin last october, so yeah, the west bank, the policy of settlement, it's all in there, but that it was mistakeable previously whereas it's not now.
‘Unequivocally a war crime’? I would beg to differ. If Hamas turns a hospital into a military base, the hospital becomes a valid military target. This is well-established in international law: if it weren’t, Hamas would simply move themselves into a hospital, and thereby become impossible to attack.that a genocidal act makes tactical, operational or strategic sense militarily, that is relevant to whether it is, in fact, a genocidal act ? the act is unequivocally a war crime, despite comparable warcrimes by hamas in fact having been commited. two warcrimes don't make a not-warcrimeAnd if those hospitals etc. are routinely repurposed by Hamas as headquarters, weapon stores and rocket launch sites?
Not Netanyahu: mostly Ben Gvir and Smotrich. Possibly some of the ultra-Orthodox MKs, too. The important thing to remember is that none of these people was ever a member of the War Cabinet which made all the important decisions, so their influence really has been limited.argument aside, if i'm understanding your take here it's something like "of course netanyahu and the hardline zionists *would* do a genocide if they could, it's just they're not being permitted to" ?
Can anyone after reading this sympathize with Israel? And yes, I know people will say that +972 is "biased" or whatnot or that these reports are "anecdotal", but seriously?Torco wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 1:54 pm According to anonymous testimony given to israeli sources by IDF soldiers recently released from active duty, it is common -and authorized by officers- to shoot civilians and civilian buildings for such dangerous behaviour as being seen walking the streets, looking at soldiers, or even nothing at all ('demonstrating presence', they apparently call it). the only soldier who gave his name mentions that it is apparently normal for IDF soldiers to shoot civilians because they're bored, or to shoot live ammo into the populated city as if it was fireworks for hanukah. Israeli soldiers have reported to the knesset that they drive bulldozers over the bodies of palestinians both dead and alive. most moral army in the world, i guess.
I don’t recall you asking this before, but: if this were genocide, there would already be no Gazans left. There certainly would be no dedicated humanitarian areas, nor would Israel allow in massive amounts of humanitarian aid as it has been doing. This is a terrible war, and the IDF’s conduct has been insufficient to protect civilians, but I see no attempt on their part to make Gazans cease to exist as a group.
This is exactly what Nazis say: If Hitler committed genocide against the Jews, why are European Jews still alive?
Many of Israel's claims about October 7 have since been discredited.