War in the Middle East, again

[rotting bones]

According to anonymous testimony given to israeli sources by IDF soldiers recently released from active duty, it is common -and authorized by officers- to shoot civilians and civilian buildings for such dangerous behaviour as being seen walking the streets, looking at soldiers, or even nothing at all ('demonstrating presence', they apparently call it). the only soldier who gave his name mentions that it is apparently normal for IDF soldiers to shoot civilians because they're bored, or to shoot live ammo into the populated city as if it was fireworks for hanukah. Israeli soldiers have reported to the knesset that they drive bulldozers over the bodies of palestinians both dead and alive. most moral army in the world, i guess.

Can anyone after reading this sympathize with Israel? And yes, I know people will say that +972 is "biased" or whatnot or that these reports are "anecdotal", but seriously?

Saw it weeks ago. Which part of "everyone is literally Hitler" don't you understand?

Did you guys see the stories about rape by the IDF? It's time to come to terms with the fact that the people you look up to might be genocide-sexual.

[zompist]

I don’t recall you asking this before, but: if this were genocide, there would already be no Gazans left. There certainly would be no dedicated humanitarian areas, nor would Israel allow in massive amounts of humanitarian aid as it has been doing. This is a terrible war, and the IDF’s conduct has been insufficient to protect civilians, but I see no attempt on their part to make Gazans cease to exist as a group.

That is, flipping this around to directly answer the question — if this were a genocide, I would expect to see a concerted attempt to kill every single Gazan person within reach of Israeli weapons. This has not happened, and neither is there any sign that it will.

(Killing every person in sight is too high a bar, I hear you say? Too incomprehensibly evil? Well, just look at October 7. That is what an attempted genocide looks like.)

I don't like to get involved in this, but really, this is ad hoc nonsense plus a contradiction.

First. "there would be no Gazans left" makes no sense. There were genocides in Armenia, in Nazi Germany, in Cambodia, in Rwanda, and in no case was the target ethnicity eliminated. It does not look good for you to be making up a new definition of genocide that allows less than 99.999% fatality to be humane and wonderful.

And then two paragraphs later you throw out your new definition and call a big terrorist attack (not even the biggest ever) genodical. Gosh, according to noted genocide authority yourself, it would only be a genocide if there were "no Israelis left."

Finally, things like denying people food and water, or telling them to assemble at point X and then bombing the shit out of point X, or bombing every hospital in Gaza, or destroying livestock and farms, is acting with genocidal intent. Yes, 10/7 was nasty and bad; what the rest of the world has noticed is that killing thirty times as many Palestinians is also nasty and bad. Worse, if you happen to believe that 30 murders are worse than 1.

[rotting bones]

Worse, if you happen to believe that 30 murders are worse than 1.

A reminder that no one knows how many people were killed in Gaza: https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/pol ... unreliable

Also, I have never seen anyone address this, but civilian casualties for the IDF are much higher by percentage than those for Hamas during October 7.

PS. Recently, I saw estimates like 186k.

[Torco]

I don't disagree with rotting here: in the aim of absolving israel this narrow definition of genocide, brad, ends up excluding the prototypical case of genocide: the holocaust. the nazis did not, in fact, shoot every jew on sight at all times, and yet they were engaged in a genocide against them (and against other groups as well). words mean things and genocide does not mean exclusively and exactly indiscriminate shooting of any members of a group in sight, and is not constituted by it alone. often it is something entirely different, as it was in the third reich: the orderly, industrialized, bureaucratic state policy of extermination. ofc otoh a genocide can be carried out through such actions, as it was with the genocide of the patagonian peoples, or in much of the rwandan genocide. in fact, the rwandan case is interesting: it teaches us that genocides can be informal and nevertheless planned: there was no 'execute order sixty-six' given by the emperor, eppur si muove. shit, man, that's what happens when you learn history, you learn about a lot of these things. i think you oughtta read about past genocides tbh.

was oct7 genocidal in intent? not unless the perpetrators were demential: no one sane would think that a few cunts with guns, bombs and parafoils or whatever could exterminate or displace the jews from the holy land: the intent was obviously provocational. was it evil? yes. shit, man, a thousand civilians, that's horrible. are hamas genocidal in intent? sure. but facts matter, and the ones in fact doing the extermination, the starvation (all in ipc3, a million in ipc5 in march: we all know it's not gotten better, but it means it all oscilates between pretty insecure where your next meal's gonna come and outright hungry), the displacement, the settling, the hostages (zionists just call them 'administrative incarcerations' or somesuch), all at the demographic level, to exhaustive publicly available evidence, is the state of israel. that all gazans could be dead if they wanted it does not negate any of that. it's creepy how commonly I hear from zionists that "if we wanted to we could have gotten all of 'em by now" said as an argument.

Also, I have never seen anyone address this, but civilian casualties for the IDF are much higher by percentage than those for Hamas during October 7.

what do you mean by percentage here? not sure i get it.

[rotting bones]

In case people think I'm joking when I say politicians should be medically checked for an erection after being shown pictures of Auschwitz: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240 ... eath-toll/

[rotting bones]

what do you mean by percentage here? not sure i get it.

The IDF caused more civilian casualties than Hamas did during October 7.

[Torco]

ah, yes, beyond a shadow of a doubt. i think that it's seldom mentioned cause we antizios think it's kind of a given, and has been for 50 years, and the zios think it's better not to bring it up.

smirkwise... i've always suspected i might be on the spectrum (the conlanger programmer guy who owns both a cello and a stanley plane? nooooo). I don't think i see it.

[malloc]

smirkwise... i've always suspected i might be on the spectrum (the conlanger programmer guy who owns both a cello and a stanley plane? nooooo). I don't think i see it.

You mean you own an airplane?

[Darren]

smirkwise... i've always suspected i might be on the spectrum (the conlanger programmer guy who owns both a cello and a stanley plane? nooooo). I don't think i see it.

You mean you own an airplane?

Stanley is the main manufacturer of woodworking planes (significantly cheaper and smaller than aeroplanes)

[bradrn]

It seems that I was tired and worded my post badly, apologies.

I’m not suggesting that genocide always results in 100% fatalities: that would be obviously false. I’m suggesting that genocide requires an intention to kill 100% of the targeted people. And people are just not thinking about what that kind of utter horror would actually look like, in the context of Gaza.

This is because there is a very simple difference between Gaza and WWII: Gazans are already crammed into a tiny little space from which they cannot escape. Israel could simply bomb the whole thing systematically. Indeed the north has been systematically bombed (after giving people time to move out), and the result is uninhabitable by anyone not hiding out in a tunnel. Israel also controls the borders, so it could stop letting food in.

(Doing these things would be evil and genocidal, of course. That’s why Israel hasn’t done them.)

By contrast, Hitler attempted to eliminate Jews from the whole of Europe. To state the obvious, this is not a small area. There were plenty of places for Jews to hide. Although difficult, it was possible for us to go to other countries (as indeed my grandmother escaped by moving from Lithuania to South Africa). What’s more, Jews were often highly assimilated and intermingled with other Europeans. Hitler could not use bombs to achieve his murderous goals, because it would kill his own people as well. (Indeed, that was a big part of his propaganda — ‘the evil Jews are evil because they look just like you, we need to hunt them down’.)

That is to say, Israel is in a position such that it could murder every Gazan — if that were the official policy. Hitler, thank God, was never in that position. If Israel really wanted to murder every Gazan, that would result in no Gazans alive; the attempt by Hitler to murder every Jew could never result in every Jew killed.

[rotting bones]

It sounds to me like you came up with this reasoning by thinking about it. I have read history books about the World Wars, and I'm telling you, Hitler was physically incapable of killing millions of Jews immediately because he would have literally run out of bullets. They had to build up ammunitions factories and later, gas chambers to come anywhere near achieving their goal. Even towards the end, his officials were telling him that his obsession with killing the Jews was severely hampering his war effort.

Similarly, Israel ran out of conventional weapons in their Gaza invasion and had to get more from America. They could cut off resources or nuke the place, but that would cause the US to halt diplomatic ties under most non-Trump administrations. Since Israel is heavily dependent on the US, they could not immediately murder every Gazan. That said, 186k is 8% of the prewar population of Gaza!

[bradrn]

It sounds to me like you came up with this reasoning by thinking about it.

This is one of the finest examples of unintentional humor I’ve seen in quite some time.

Even towards the end, his officials were telling him that his obsession with killing the Jews was severely hampering his war effort.

Yes, this is a hallmark of genocide: a single-minded focus on killing people as a goal in and of itself. Hitler considered killing Jews to be a primary goal, and attempted it to the exclusion of other things.

By contrast:

Similarly, Israel ran out of conventional weapons in their Gaza invasion and had to get more from America. They could cut off resources or nuke the place, but that would cause the US to halt diplomatic ties under most non-Trump administrations.

What kinds of weaponry is Israel buying from America? Predominantly, precision missiles: that is to say, the kind of missiles used to kill as few people as possible, in targeted ways. If Israel wanted to kill Gazans as a primary goal, it could switch to unguided missiles, instead of buying more precision missiles. (I’ve seen no reports that unguided missiles are in short supply.) But it hasn’t done so — because the IDF doesn’t want to carry out a genocide, and knows that precision strikes are the best way to achieve its actual goals.

As for blockades and nukes… well, you yourself just noted that Hitler was obsessed to the extent of hurting the rest of his war effort. Becoming a pariah state is no obstacle to the dedicated genocider. (Indeed, they may even see it as an advantage.) Extremist members of the Knesset, the two or three who actually do want a genocide, are quite vocal in saying that Israel should stop caring about what the US says. Everyone else is rightfully disgusted by their opinions, and they’ve been shunted to the margins of government (although not nearly far enough in my opinion).

I want to be quite clear here: I think there is far too much disregard for Palestinian lives in IDF operations. That needs to change. But that does not amount to a genocide. Everything that the IDF has done is consistent with their war aims: to (1) rescue the hostages, and (2) destroy Hamas’s ability to govern. There is nothing to suggest that they have the murder of Gazans as a primary aim.

[rotting bones]

This is one of the finest examples of unintentional humor I’ve seen in quite some time.

Prioritizing thoughts over facts is the main reason the world is the shitshow it is today. Don't think. Look, then analyze.

What kinds of weaponry is Israel buying from America? Predominantly, precision missiles: that is to say, the kind of missiles used to kill as few people as possible, in targeted ways. If Israel wanted to kill Gazans as a primary goal, it could switch to unguided missiles, instead of buying more precision missiles. (I’ve seen no reports that unguided missiles are in short supply.) But it hasn’t done so — because the IDF doesn’t want to carry out a genocide, and knows that precision strikes are the best way to achieve its actual goals.

The press recorded over and over that they used precision weaponry to target civilians. The "precision" aspect is propaganda. They have to say they are using it. IIRC 186k is 6 times the initial estimated number of Hamas fighters in total.

As for blockades and nukes… well, you yourself just noted that Hitler was obsessed to the extent of hurting the rest of his war effort. Becoming a pariah state is no obstacle to the dedicated genocider. (Indeed, they may even see it as an advantage.)

Even Hitler tried to pretend to everyone, inside Germany and to the outer world, that his genocide wasn't as bad as it sounded. It was only when the Auschwitz footage was screened that people finally grasped what Hitler had done.

[keenir]

This is one of the finest examples of unintentional humor I’ve seen in quite some time.

Prioritizing thoughts over facts is the main reason the world is the shitshow it is today.

no; the world is a shitshow because the Oxygen Revolution ended unfavorably. if things weren't so metazoan-friendly, there wouldn't be all that stuff everywhere.

Don't think. Look, then analyze.

so, you're saying "thinking is bad. don't think. look, then think."

(seriously, what is analysis, if not thinking?)

The press recorded over and over that they used precision weaponry to target civilians. The "precision" aspect is propaganda. They have to say they are using it. IIRC 186k is 6 times the initial estimated number of Hamas fighters in total.

well its a good thing estimates are never wrong then, right?

[rotting bones]

no

Yes. Even in this thread, the uncharitable reading, that the mens rea of wanting to kill a group of people and take their land cannot possibly be genocide if you don't mean to kill literally all of them is fucking insane. This is what comes of fact-free thoughts.

the world is a shitshow because the Oxygen Revolution ended unfavorably. if things weren't so metazoan-friendly, there wouldn't be all that stuff everywhere.

The Oxygen Revolution ended unfavorably because it valorized CEOs too much and couldn't draw the workers to its side. It didn't have to be this way.

so, you're saying "thinking is bad. don't think. look, then think."

(seriously, what is analysis, if not thinking?)

Yes, what's the problem? How did Terry Pratchett put it? IIRC a witch has "the first sight and second thoughts".

well its a good thing estimates are never wrong then, right?

It was never estimated upwards.

Why is everyone being Hitler? Stop justifying murder FFS.

[bradrn]

This is one of the finest examples of unintentional humor I’ve seen in quite some time.

Prioritizing thoughts over facts is the main reason the world is the shitshow it is today. Don't think. Look, then analyze.

Keenir has already addressed this idiotic comment. (I try to avoid invective, but honestly, that’s the only word for it.)

What kinds of weaponry is Israel buying from America? Predominantly, precision missiles: that is to say, the kind of missiles used to kill as few people as possible, in targeted ways. If Israel wanted to kill Gazans as a primary goal, it could switch to unguided missiles, instead of buying more precision missiles. (I’ve seen no reports that unguided missiles are in short supply.) But it hasn’t done so — because the IDF doesn’t want to carry out a genocide, and knows that precision strikes are the best way to achieve its actual goals.

The press recorded over and over that they used precision weaponry to target civilians. The "precision" aspect is propaganda. They have to say they are using it. IIRC 186k is 6 times the initial estimated number of Hamas fighters in total.

As for blockades and nukes… well, you yourself just noted that Hitler was obsessed to the extent of hurting the rest of his war effort. Becoming a pariah state is no obstacle to the dedicated genocider. (Indeed, they may even see it as an advantage.)

Even Hitler tried to pretend to everyone, inside Germany and to the outer world, that his genocide wasn't as bad as it sounded. It was only when the Auschwitz footage was screened that people finally grasped what Hitler had done.

I’m not quite sure what these are replying to, but they don’t actually seem to be addressing anything that I said in my post.

no

Yes. Even in this thread, the uncharitable reading, that the mens rea of wanting to kill a group of people and take their land cannot possibly be genocide if you don't mean to kill literally all of them is fucking insane. This is what comes of fact-free thoughts.

I had a look at the definition of genocide: it states, ‘in whole or in part’. There seems to have been a lot of debate about the latter, but it looks like it’s taken as referring to a ‘substantial part’. It seems that this has been deliberately left vague.

Either way, the key is the immediately preceding text: genocide requires ‘intent to destroy’ a group. And, like I said, I see no evidence that the IDF has an intent to destroy Gazans. Its actions are fully compatible with its stated aims.

[keenir]

no

Yes. Even in this thread, the uncharitable reading, that the mens rea of wanting to kill a group of people and take their land cannot possibly be genocide if you don't mean to kill literally all of them is fucking insane. This is what comes of fact-free thoughts.

the world is a shitshow because the Oxygen Revolution ended unfavorably. if things weren't so metazoan-friendly, there wouldn't be all that stuff everywhere.

The Oxygen Revolution ended unfavorably because it valorized CEOs too much and couldn't draw the workers to its side. It didn't have to be this ways

*sigh* the Oxygen Revolution is what allowed multicellular organisms to exist. As surprising as this may be to you, not every revolution involves humans.


and my comment about estimates was sarcasm. if you think "estimates are never wrong" makes me Hitler, that says far more about you than it does about me.

also, there is a difference between a thought and a fact-free thought; the two are not the same...no matter how much you may want them to be, so that you can tell people to think (analyse) and not to think.

[rotting bones]

Keenir has already addressed this idiotic comment. (I try to avoid invective, but honestly, that’s the only word for it.)

To be perfectly honest, the fact that you see stupidity as intelligence and intelligence as stupidity scares me more than the fact that you are Hitler.

I’m not quite sure what these are replying to, but they don’t actually seem to be addressing anything that I said in my post.

Argument: If Israel wanted to kill Gazans as a primary goal, it could switch to unguided missiles, instead of buying more precision missiles.

Objection: The "precision" aspect is propaganda. They have to say they are using it.

Explanation: Israel is using precision weapons as part of their propaganda campaign to show that they are being humane. The fact that they routinely target civilians shows that being humane is not a priority for them. They are conducting an indiscriminate slaughter of civilians. This amounts to genocide, the act of destroying a people in whole or in part.

Either way, the key is the immediately preceding text: genocide requires ‘intent to destroy’ a group. And, like I said, I see no evidence that the IDF has an intent to destroy Gazans. Its actions are fully compatible with its stated aims.

Since the founding of Israel, they said they had to destroy the Palestinians. If they are in Gaza to conduct a rational operation, why are they retaliating against the West Bank?

[rotting bones]

*sigh* the Oxygen Revolution is what allowed multicellular organisms to exist. As surprising as this may be to you, not every revolution involves humans.

Yes, and it failed because oxygen will run out because of humans.

and my comment about estimates was sarcasm. if you think "estimates are never wrong" makes me Hitler, that says far more about you than it does about me.

also, there is a difference between a thought and a fact-free thought; the two are not the same...no matter how much you may want them to be, so that you can tell people to think (analyse) and not to think.

I must confess, I cannot deny that these words have been drawn from the English language. Their import, however, remains a mystery to me.

[keenir]

*sigh* the Oxygen Revolution is what allowed multicellular organisms to exist. As surprising as this may be to you, not every revolution involves humans.

Yes, and it failed because oxygen will run out because of humans.

you're going to have to explain that.

in detail.