War in the Middle East, again

[Torco]

do you seriously think that a Uighur or a Tibetan or a Taiwanese person really sees China as better than the US?

probably not, no. on the other hand, someone from burkina faso, or palestine, might. but like, yeah, china's no benevolent overlord. I didn't say it was. and it's not like the US doesn't have its human rights violations, and I'd say bigger ones too! however many excess deaths in cuba, for example, or venezuela. palestine, to be topical, the fashy dictatorships in latin america, biggest prison population in the planet. i'm not litigating which one is morally worse, though: but outcome-wise, i'd prefer the us not to be the sole superpower in control of the planet, thank you very much, so huzzah for its apparent decline, says I. that's not incompatible with china being, as it is, authoritarian, censorious, illiberal, oppressive and all the rest of it.

like, again, what's the alternative? america world police forever?
coming again to save the motherfucking day yeah... man that song's good

[Travis B.]

About China, China is basically what we get when fascism manages to survive in the long term and become semi-stable. And the reason why China may seem more benevolent than the US is not that they are better, but rather that they haven't been capable of doing as much -- this will change if China gets more powerful. And please, do you seriously think that a Uighur or a Tibetan or a Taiwanese person really sees China as better than the US?

We're having a debate about whether China or the USA is worse on an online forum openly, under the owner's well-known pseudonym, hosted in the USA.

What are the chances of a similar debate happening on an online forum non-clandestinely hosted in China, without any of the participants risking legal trouble or disappearance in the process?

How many protests against Chinese government policies are openly tolerated on Chinese campuses right now?

Exactly. The fact that we here in the US on this board openly hosted in the US can openly criticize the US gov't without risking significant harassment, legal trouble, or being disappeared while Chinese people cannot do the same w.r.t. China in China... or even outside China... shows the difference between the US and China.

[Raphael]

Regarding general goodness or badness in the world of today, I'd say to some extent there's a simple test: If a political leader is liked by Viktor Orbán, then that person and the things they support are probably bad. If Viktor Orbán, OTOH, dislikes a political leader, there's at least some chance that that person might be half-way decent. Call it "The Orbán Test," if you will.

Orbán likes Putin, Xi, Trump, and Netanyahu, all of whom seem to return the favor. He doesn't seem to like Biden or Harris.

And IMO, if you support someone whom Orbán likes, you should at least try to explain why Orbán likes that person, if they're so great.

[Travis B.]

Regarding general goodness or badness in the world of today, I'd say to some extent there's a simple test: If a political leader is liked by Viktor Orbán, then that person and the things they support are probably bad. If Viktor Orbán, OTOH, dislikes a political leader, there's at least some chance that that person might be half-way decent. Call it "The Orbán Test," if you will.

Orbán likes Putin, Xi, Trump, and Netanyahu, all of whom seem to return the favor. He doesn't seem to like Biden or Harris.

And IMO, if you support someone whom Orbán likes, you should at least try to explain why Orbán likes that person, if they're so great.

Agreed.

[keenir]

china becoming more and more important in countries' trade balance

I hope you realize that in China, reading the works of Marx puts you under the suspicion of being a rebel. There are many factions within the country, but they apparently love Carl Schmitt over there these days.

I'm not sure how that tidbit of information - whatever its source or veracity - is relevant to trade balances and China's importances

[Torco]

china becoming more and more important in countries' trade balance

I hope you realize that in China, reading the works of Marx puts you under the suspicion of being a rebel. There are many factions within the country, but they apparently love Carl Schmitt over there these days.

I'm not sure how that tidbit of information - whatever its source or veracity - is relevant to trade balances and China's importances

sure but we're talking about why xi is personally not a good guy and why that entails america should own the world forever

[keenir]

I hope you realize that in China, reading the works of Marx puts you under the suspicion of being a rebel. There are many factions within the country, but they apparently love Carl Schmitt over there these days.

I'm not sure how that tidbit of information - whatever its source or veracity - is relevant to trade balances and China's importances

sure but we're talking about why xi is personally not a good guy and why that entails america should own the world forever

I don't know anything about Carl Schmitt, so I can't say how that reflects on Xi.

[Torco]

me neither, do you think he might be part of that axis dubya bush was talking about? the axis of evil? he sounds evil

[Travis B.]

Carl Schmitt was that Nazi jurist guy.

[Torco]

i think (?) we were both being playfully facetious. is the guy really big in china ? man, i wish i knew chinese sometimes, but it's sooooo much work

[keenir]

i think (?) we were both being playfully facetious. is the guy really big in china ? man, i wish i knew chinese sometimes, but it's sooooo much work

I know he was running China for a while...I don't know who holds the job lately.

[Ares Land]

i think (?) we were both being playfully facetious. is the guy really big in china ? man, i wish i knew chinese sometimes, but it's sooooo much work

I know he was running China for a while...I don't know who holds the job lately.

I think they meant Carl Schmitt!

sure, china bad: but as I think i've said before, I haven't seen the chinese nuke civilians, or establish fascist governments in my country and those countries around me, or wage economic war costing millions of civilian lives against one third of the world. they do seem like the lesser evil. and even if they're not, again, last time capitalism worked in such a way as not to make workers poorer much pooorer while making the ruling class richer was when there was two superpowers, even though the west was much more powerful than the warsaw pact: it's not good to have the world be owned by just one country.

That's a surprising take yes. China replaces its minorities with Han. This happened lately to the Uyghur -- Uyghur cultur was essentially erased, as the Uyghur lately. The same thing happened in Tibet earlier.
We could also talk about their role in keeping the North Korea regime in power -- how many deaths?
As for economic wars -- of course they wage economic war. China is basically a capitalist dystopia; labor conditions are so insanely low they amount (at least to me) to slavery. I should add to this the common practice of selling at a loss, with the aim of destroying competing industries in mind. This has destroyed millions of jobs worldwide.

The US don't even come close.

[keenir]

i think (?) we were both being playfully facetious. is the guy really big in china ? man, i wish i knew chinese sometimes, but it's sooooo much work

I know he was running China for a while...I don't know who holds the job lately.

I think they meant Carl Schmitt!

my bad.

[rotting bones]

sure, china bad: but as I think i've said before, I haven't seen the chinese nuke civilians, or establish fascist governments in my country and those countries around me, or wage economic war costing millions of civilian lives against one third of the world. they do seem like the lesser evil. and even if they're not, again, last time capitalism worked in such a way as not to make workers poorer much pooorer while making the ruling class richer was when there was two superpowers, even though the west was much more powerful than the warsaw pact: it's not good to have the world be owned by just one country.

They are constantly sabre rattling in Arunachal Pradesh and the South China Sea. They have been extending strings of military bases in client states. ("String of Pearls", etc.)

What makes you think China won't push their advantage?

also, how's that relevant to the point? i'm saying sanctions are becoming less powerful of a tool

Regarding collective punishment, countries that accept trade deals from China have a harder time refinancing their loans. If you think you can appeal to Marxist internationalism to make them soften their stance, think again. Paul Cockshott has reported China's antipathy to Marx. You can read about their love for Carl Schmitt in John Gray's New Leviathans. Chinese agents in the US like Caleb Maupin spread the Nazbol ideology.

What's the benefit of multipolarity when every pole is a fascist dystopia?

[Travis B.]

What's the benefit of multipolarity when every pole is a fascist dystopia?

A world dominated by a single superpower where that superpower is a liberal democracy is preferable over a multipolar world where, as you say, every pole is authoritarian.

[rotting bones]

A world dominated by a single superpower where that superpower is a liberal democracy is preferable over a multipolar world where, as you say, every pole is authoritarian.

I don't know if it's better, but I wouldn't say it's worse. It's definitely not good. I wouldn't object to the multipolarity view if there had been some plan to oppose the authoritarian alternatives as well. But as far as I know, some people seem to value multipolarity as an end in itself.

[Travis B.]

A world dominated by a single superpower where that superpower is a liberal democracy is preferable over a multipolar world where, as you say, every pole is authoritarian.

I don't know if it's better, but I wouldn't say it's worse. It's definitely not good. I wouldn't object to the multipolarity view if there had been some plan to oppose the authoritarian alternatives as well. But as far as I know, some people seem to value multipolarity as an end in itself.

The end of the Cold War in the short term resulted in significance increases in peace and democracy globally (as much as it had downsides such as the economic collapses of post-Communist states due to things like privatization), as there was no longer a need for the different blocs to support authoritarian states and factions in civil wars across the world. It is easy to forget how much the Cold War sucked for much of the world.

[rotting bones]

(Contrast it to terrorist groups in Israel, which are funded indirectly by Western money. In this case, sanctions are clearly effective and I heartily endorse them.)

I read a story that the US didn't enforce the sanctions against Israeli groups.

[rotting bones]

The end of the Cold War in the short term resulted in significance increases in peace and democracy globally (as much as it had downsides such as the economic collapses of post-Communist states due to things like privatization), as there was no longer a need for the different blocs to support authoritarian states and factions in civil wars across the world. It is easy to forget how much the Cold War sucked for much of the world.

I feel like the world didn't fully exist until recently. For most of history, the population was very low and most people struggled to support themselves. Now that we have a little bit of breathing room, it seems like what people want to do with it is kill each other. Surely at least some of this is ideological? The Serbian epic The Mountain Wreath has been blamed for what happened after the fall of Yugoslavia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mountain_Wreath (I saw this while going through every article in this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epic_poems)

Maybe things will be better if leftists could form clubs that are as strong as right-wing clubs.

[keenir]

(Contrast it to terrorist groups in Israel, which are funded indirectly by Western money. In this case, sanctions are clearly effective and I heartily endorse them.)

I read a story that the US didn't enforce the sanctions against Israeli groups.

a story in...?