English questions

[Travis B.]

Are your guys' English dialects like mine where 'green pepper' exclusively refers to a green bell pepper, while the term 'bell pepper' is practically never used unless one is being a pedant and wants to make clear that, yes, the green pepper is a bell pepper (even though there is no ambiguity, because other green-colored types of peppers such as jalapeños are never called 'green peppers' but rather are referred to by their more specific names, e.g. as 'jalapeños'). (Conversely 'red pepper' does not refer to a red-colored bell pepper by default but rather to a spice made from ground red-colored piquant peppers such as cayenne peppers.)

It's always been "green bell pepper", "red bell pepper" and so on to me, ever since I accompanied my parents on grocery trips as a kid. And back then my family hardly ever cooked with any other peppers, so it had no disambiguating function. We did use chili powder of course, but that's a blend of some kind of capsicum usually with other spices – the bag of Penzeys chili powder I've been working through since I visited my parents last year is made from ancho chilis with Mexican oregano, garlic powder, and cumin, for instance. Since I've grown up and watched a significant amount of cooking Youtube, I've become a lot more culinarily adventurous and it's become pretty natural to refer to hot peppers as "chilis"; cayenne powder is cayenne, and bell peppers remain bell peppers.

(I happen to also be from the Milwaukee area, if that's relevant. This means that the stew I know as "chili" bears more resemblance to pasta fazool than to chili con carne.)

It's interesting that you explicitly say 'bell peppers' whereas I am not used to the word 'bell' being normally used, and you are also from the Milwaukee area.

[salem]

It's always been "green bell pepper", "red bell pepper" and so on to me, ever since I accompanied my parents on grocery trips as a kid. And back then my family hardly ever cooked with any other peppers, so it had no disambiguating function. We did use chili powder of course, but that's a blend of some kind of capsicum usually with other spices – the bag of Penzeys chili powder I've been working through since I visited my parents last year is made from ancho chilis with Mexican oregano, garlic powder, and cumin, for instance. Since I've grown up and watched a significant amount of cooking Youtube, I've become a lot more culinarily adventurous and it's become pretty natural to refer to hot peppers as "chilis"; cayenne powder is cayenne, and bell peppers remain bell peppers.

(I happen to also be from the Milwaukee area, if that's relevant. This means that the stew I know as "chili" bears more resemblance to pasta fazool than to chili con carne.)

It's interesting that you explicitly say 'bell peppers' whereas I am not used to the word 'bell' being normally used, and you are also from the Milwaukee area.

I think it's likely your speech is just more lexically conservative* than mine. You'd obviously be a good deal younger than him, but my grandfather (in his early eighties) calls green bell peppers just "green peppers", I'm pretty sure**. I spent a few years living with him and my grandmother, but I'm also twenty-four and have spent a lot of time online.

* possibly not the right word for this; I suppose I mean "less Californianized", or more markedly regional
** certainly in the context of bratwurst with peppers and onions, which is I think the only thing he cooks with them

[linguistcat]

I don’t know what ‘chili con carne’ is.

Tex-Mex stew traditionally of just beef, chilis, and tomatoes; within Texas itself there is fierce debate over whether including kidney beans is appropriate, while up north there's usually also macaroni involved.

The kind I am used to has kidney beans but no macaroni.

If you involve macaroni, it becomes chili mac to me. I grew up in California and spent most of my life either there or here in the Utah-Idaho area.

[Travis B.]

I think it's likely your speech is just more lexically conservative* than mine. You'd obviously be a good deal younger than him, but my grandfather (in his early eighties) calls green bell peppers just "green peppers", I'm pretty sure**. I spent a few years living with him and my grandmother, but I'm also twenty-four and have spent a lot of time online.

* possibly not the right word for this; I suppose I mean "less Californianized", or more markedly regional
** certainly in the context of bratwurst with peppers and onions, which is I think the only thing he cooks with them

I suspect my speech is highly dialectal even by Wisconsin standards, because a very common question I get from coworkers when I first talk with them in length (e.g. on outings for lunch) is "where did you grow up?" I even get this from people I know are also from Wisconsin -- e.g. at my first Real Job out of college, they brought in contractors from all over the US, and I remember someone from somewhere else in Wisconsin (I think they were from near Oshkosh or like) remarking on my use of [ja] (pronounced pretty much identically to StG ja), which I had my whole life just perceived as another pronunciation of yeah but which turns out to be a particularly Milwaukee dialect form. On one occasion I had someone I did not know figure out which suburb I grew up in, without me telling them anything about myself, just from how I spoke.

[zompist]

Just so Travis doesn't have the monopoly on weird English dialectal observations...

I've been re-reading Lass's Phonology, and he mentions that some US dialects have [mɪiən] for 'million'. I thought that sounded weird till I tried it, and I think I have that, or more precisely [mɪjn̩]. In careful speech I'd say [mɪɫjn̩].

[Travis B.]

Just so Travis doesn't have the monopoly on weird English dialectal observations...

I've been re-reading Lass's Phonology, and he mentions that some US dialects have [mɪiən] for 'million'. I thought that sounded weird till I tried it, and I think I have that, or more precisely [mɪjn̩]. In careful speech I'd say [mɪɫjn̩].

I don't think I've ever heard that, but then I honestly don't have the broadest exposure to other English varieties, even NAE ones. My million is [ˈmɨːɰjɘ̃(ː)(n)]. However, I am not too surprised by this pronunciation, as coda /l/-elision is known in English (hell, the normal pronunciation of Milwaukee here has it).

[Creyeditor]

Slightly off topic: German children also stereotypically use [mi:jo:n] to refer to large numbers (at least in my personal experience), even though standard German has [mIljo:n] for million.

[Travis B.]

This on Wikipedia (we all know the quality of Wikipedia's linguistics articles ) claims that reduction of final clusters such as /st/, /sk/, /nd/, and /ft/ is found in AAVE, Caribbean English, and Local Dublin English, as if it did not occur in other English varieties. However, I am familiar with all these reductions occurring extremely commonly in North American English outside of just AAVE. I have even heard my daughter pronounce the specific example from the Wiki article of the plural of 'test' as "tesses" /ˈtɛsəz/ [ˈtʰɜsɘːs]. Anyone else notice these reductions in English outside of just the varieties identified in that Wiki article?

[Travis B.]

And on another note, I had a notable misunderstanding with my daughter today. I told her by text that I would be picking her up "by the parent pickup line", as I was parked in the parent pickup line. However, she understood it to mean that I was parked near the parent pickup line, and she called me when she could not find me as she had thought I had meant I was parked in the parking lot. My usage of by here as a general locative is a specific feature of Milwaukee dialect that she apparently never learned, whereas I had grown up using by in this fashion. Supposedly this usage of by is borrowed from German bei, but whether this is true or not I do not know.

[Darren]

This on Wikipedia (we all know the quality of Wikipedia's linguistics articles ) claims that reduction of final clusters such as /st/, /sk/, /nd/, and /ft/ is found in AAVE, Caribbean English, and Local Dublin English, as if it did not occur in other English varieties. However, I am familiar with all these reductions occurring extremely commonly in North American English outside of just AAVE. I have even heard my daughter pronounce the specific example from the Wiki article of the plural of 'test' as "tesses" /ˈtɛsəz/ [ˈtʰɜsɘːs]. Anyone else notice these reductions in English outside of just the varieties identified in that Wiki article?

I have sporadic /st nd ft/-reduction in casual speech but nothing as innovative as "tesses"

[Linguoboy]

This on Wikipedia (we all know the quality of Wikipedia's linguistics articles ) claims that reduction of final clusters such as /st/, /sk/, /nd/, and /ft/ is found in AAVE, Caribbean English, and Local Dublin English, as if it did not occur in other English varieties....Anyone else notice these reductions in English outside of just the varieties identified in that Wiki article?

Oh I have some of those myself. I don't think I ever pronounce the /d/ in /nd/ outside of very careful speech.

My personal favourite observed example, however, is from a couple of White working-class Chicagoans. Some years ago, we had our roof replaced. The roofers came to a condo meeting to explain the work that was being done and kept talking about the need to replace the "joices" (i.e. "joists").

[Travis B.]

My personal favourite observed example, however, is from a couple of White working-class Chicagoans. Some years ago, we had our roof replaced. The roofers came to a condo meeting to explain the work that was being done and kept talking about the need to replace the "joices" (i.e. "joists").

My daughter's "tesses" is the only example of this I have heard IRL myself. The usual outcome of plurals of historical final /st/ here is [sʲː]* even when the same speakers readily realize final /st/ in isolation as just [s]*.

* [s] is denti-alveolar while [sʲː] is lightly palatalized alveolar.

[Richard W]

There's a reason why widows like me gravitate toward other widows; other folks just don't understand.

Insensitive linguistic query: Why 'widow' rather than 'widower'?

[Richard W]

And on another note, I had a notable misunderstanding with my daughter today. I told her by text that I would be picking her up "by the parent pickup line", as I was parked in the parent pickup line. However, she understood it to mean that I was parked near the parent pickup line, and she called me when she could not find me as she had thought I had meant I was parked in the parking lot. My usage of by here as a general locative is a specific feature of Milwaukee dialect that she apparently never learned, whereas I had grown up using by in this fashion. Supposedly this usage of by is borrowed from German bei, but whether this is true or not I do not know.

FWIW, the general locative meaning is the first one given at Wiktionary. It's also part of my usage, and I'm English.

[Richard W]

This on Wikipedia (we all know the quality of Wikipedia's linguistics articles ) claims that reduction of final clusters such as /st/, /sk/, /nd/, and /ft/ is found in AAVE, Caribbean English, and Local Dublin English, as if it did not occur in other English varieties. However, I am familiar with all these reductions occurring extremely commonly in North American English outside of just AAVE. I have even heard my daughter pronounce the specific example from the Wiki article of the plural of 'test' as "tesses" /ˈtɛsəz/ [ˈtʰɜsɘːs]. Anyone else notice these reductions in English outside of just the varieties identified in that Wiki article?

The reduction of final /nd/ to /n/ is or was common in England, and a general reduction of final clusters is remembered in the silent 't' of Kirkcudbright. At school. someone named Harding has his surname perverted to 'Soff' rather than 'Soft'. The local accent was Northern Midlands, but I think the simplification of final fricative plus stop is sporadic rather than consistent.

[Linguoboy]

There's a reason why widows like me gravitate toward other widows; other folks just don't understand.

Insensitive linguistic query: Why 'widow' rather than 'widower'?

"Widower" sounds as old-fashioned to me as "authoress".

[Travis B.]

There's a reason why widows like me gravitate toward other widows; other folks just don't understand.

Insensitive linguistic query: Why 'widow' rather than 'widower'?

"Widower" sounds as old-fashioned to me as "authoress".

Conversely, to me there is still a current gender distinction between 'widow' and 'widower', and 'widower' is not obsolete even if it is not used commonly (as it sounds odd to me to substitute 'widow' for it).

[Linguoboy]

"Widower" sounds as old-fashioned to me as "authoress".

Conversely, to me there is still a current gender distinction between 'widow' and 'widower', and 'widower' is not obsolete even if it is not used commonly (as it sounds odd to me to substitute 'widow' for it).

For me, that's a holdover from a time when the experiences of widowed spouses were extremely gendered, and widowed men generally remarried or were cared for by female relatives (aunts, mothers, sisters, daughters, nieces, etc.) whereas widowed women were left with far fewer resources, often becoming dependent on charity (thus the bracketing "widows and orphans"). Moreover, most of the widows I know are queer like me, and we're just less likely to use gendered terms in general. Like there's no real reason I can think of to say "husbands and wives" rather than "spouses", and saying "my fellow widows and widowers" sounds even more awkward than that.

[Travis B.]

In the dialect here, forget and forgive often have the for- prefixes change to /frə/ [fʁˤəː], presumably to avoid [ɔːʁˤɡ] or [ʁ̩ˤːɡ]. I have not heard of this being noted anywhere as happening in any English varieties; this is just from my own personal observation. Is anyone else aware of this happening in any other English varieties? I am interested in finding out how widespread this change is.

[Linguoboy]

In the dialect here, forget and forgive often have the for- prefixes change to /frə/ [fʁˤəː], presumably to avoid [ɔːʁˤɡ] or [ʁ̩ˤːɡ]. I have not heard of this being noted anywhere as happening in any English varieties; this is just from my own personal observation. Is anyone else aware of this happening in any other English varieties? I am interested in finding out how widespread this change is.

I don't recall hearing this. However, my father (Baltimore, MD) did have sporadic /pɚ/ > /pɹi/ in words like perception.