AIs gunning for our precious freelancers

[bradrn]

None of these activation functions output a constant magnitude.

I was talking about physical neurons.

[rotting bones]

I was talking about physical neurons.

I was correcting my earlier allergy-addled post.

I was also wondering if an activation function that outputs a constant magnitude is better than the other options for some purposes. My guess is that in most contexts, a lot of information would be lost too easily.

[malloc]

As it seems I need to ram this point into the ground: a neuron is a pretty complex little device. Its inputs and outputs are, at the least, equivalent to integers, it's connected to an average of 7000 other neurons, and there's a lot of other stuff going on (e.g. neurotransmitters). It is absolutely not equivalent to a logic gate, which is the minimal operator acting on and outputting strictly on/off signals.

Sure but each neuron still only produces one uniform output (the all-or-nothing law that bradn mentions) in response to particular inputs. The additional connections presumably allow more granularity in the truth table (for instance requiring a certain percentage of "true" inputs rather than one or two) but hardly change the basic functionality. The other stuff going on mostly just introduces noise, which presumably explains why the brain struggles with things that come easily to computers.

malloc wants to scare himself by inflating the power of computers and underestimating the complexity of brains, and one trick he's using is comparing things that are not comparable; another is grossly undercounting neurons. And these errors, of several orders of magnitude each, add up, so he's spouting absurdities.

How so? The human brain or cerebrum at least has only fifteen billion or so neurons whereas a data center used for AI has trillions and trillions of logic gates distributed among its many processing units. Even if one neuron has the computational power of thousands of logic gates, the brain and the data center seem evenly matched at best.

[Ares Land]

This all sounds like an old SF tropes.
In 50's and 60's SF computers became sentient when you added enough logic gates to them. In the 90s they even upgraded this, as computer networks or even the Internet became sentient as soon as people connected enough computers to them.

Nothing remotely like that ever happened. I'm pretty sure SF writers were aware the idea was nonsense -- but why let that get in the way of a good story?

But why didn't it work?

I think the answer is simple: the brain is not very much, or at all like a computer. Nor is it much like generative AI.

[Raphael]

I'm pretty sure SF writers were aware the idea was nonsense --

I agree with most of your post, but I'm not sure about this part. What makes you think that?

[Ares Land]

I'm pretty sure SF writers were aware the idea was nonsense --

I agree with most of your post, but I'm not sure about this part. What makes you think that?

There are pretty funny pages by Justin B. Rye on Heinlein and Clarke's predictions: http://jbr.me.uk/retro/rah.html ; http://jbr.me.uk/retro/acc.html
They're a great deal more sober about AI in their predictions than they were in their fiction. As I recall, Asimov had clear ideas on robots and it was evidently clear in his mind that the positronic robot was pure fiction.
Orson Scott Card had his interstellar internet become sentient, but he was pretty clear about the whole thing being (in effect) a con-religion.

With Heinlein and Clarke I think it's easy to see which bits they were serious about and which were more science-fictional.
Heinlein's and Clarke's spaceships are described in loving detail. You get the idea that you could build them and have them take you to Luna or Jupiter (granted some bits of technobabble, like 'torchships') exactly in the way they describe; the lovingly detailed orbital maneuvers would, in fact, work and are actually used. Heinlein's libertarianism, or group marriage, ditto. (They wouldn't exactly work as described but Switzerland is a real country, and Heinlein knew all about group marriage because he'd been in one.) You don't get that level of detail with Mike or HAL besides 'something something neuristors' or 'something something heuristics.'

[Raphael]

Ah, thank you.

[rotting bones]

I think the answer is simple: the brain is not very much, or at all like a computer. Nor is it much like generative AI.

Neural networks were modeled on the brain, and researchers still try to bring them closer. It's possible that having an analog output instead of a constant magnitude allows artificial neurons to get ok results with smaller and less specialized networks.

[rotting bones]

On the other hand, small numbers of biological neurons can play Pong: https://www.brainmatters.nl/en/tag/brain-research/

[zompist]

On the other hand, small numbers of biological neurons can play Pong: https://www.brainmatters.nl/en/tag/brain-research/

That's pretty neat. One step closer to brains-in-vats!

[rotting bones]

I've also seen work that uses biological neurons for image recognition. I can't remember what it was called.

[Gareth3]

This all sounds like an old SF tropes.
In 50's and 60's SF computers became sentient when you added enough logic gates to them. In the 90s they even upgraded this, as computer networks or even the Internet became sentient as soon as people connected enough computers to them.

Nothing remotely like that ever happened. I'm pretty sure SF writers were aware the idea was nonsense -- but why let that get in the way of a good story?

I liked Vinge's version of this in A Fire Upon the Deep. The Tines are group-mind animals, they need four or five individual brains communicating by ultrasound to make a sapient mind, and unrelated animals can join each collective consciousness. But just adding more and more animals does not make a superintelligent mind. There are collective Tine minds with hundreds of members, and they're no more intelligent than fives or sixes.

[zompist]

They're a great deal more sober about AI in their predictions than they were in their fiction. As I recall, Asimov had clear ideas on robots and it was evidently clear in his mind that the positronic robot was pure fiction. [...] You don't get that level of detail with Mike or HAL besides 'something something neuristors' or 'something something heuristics.'

I think it's because the classic SF writers were not programmers. The first writer I'm aware of who actually got computers was Neal Stephenson... even William Gibson just treated them as magic.

It's also worth recalling all the classic writers knew was mainframes. So Mike and HAL are mainframes. On the other hand Mike has, apparently, one programmer, and the Authority has not a single geek who can even conceive that Mike's been compromised.

I'd say it's really terrible security, but it turns out RW companies have really terrible security too.

[rotting bones]

I've also seen work that uses biological neurons for image recognition. I can't remember what it was called.

I might have been thinking about this, actually: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41928-023-01069-w

Apparently, I can barely trust anything I remember right now.

[rotting bones]

The first writer I'm aware of who actually got computers was Neal Stephenson... even William Gibson just treated them as magic.

How much does being a programmer actually help? Doesn't Zuckerberg's terrible Metaverse idea come from Snowcrash?

[malloc]

The following chart illustrates my basic point regarding neurons and logic gates. The letters represent inputs or signals flowing into the structure, two for the logic gate and any number from one to thousands for the neuron. As you can clearly see, both of these structures have essentially the same function, taking Boolean inputs and producing a Boolean output in response. The neuron does have more inputs, thus allowing a more complex and variegated truth table, but the basic mechanics look pretty similar otherwise.

[rotting bones]

The following chart illustrates my basic point regarding neurons and logic gates. The letters represent inputs or signals flowing into the structure, two for the logic gate and any number from one to thousands for the neuron. As you can clearly see, both of these structures have essentially the same function, taking Boolean inputs and producing a Boolean output in response. The neuron does have more inputs, thus allowing a more complex and variegated truth table, but the basic mechanics look pretty similar otherwise.

This diagram is misleading because a neuron doesn't have a truth table.

An artificial neuron has an equation like:

Output = Activation(Sum for i = 1 to n(weight i times input i))

Biological neurons are presumably even more messy.

[zompist]

The first writer I'm aware of who actually got computers was Neal Stephenson... even William Gibson just treated them as magic.

How much does being a programmer actually help?

Well, knowing stuff helps avoid looking silly to people in the field. After all, that's one reason Tolkien's languages go over well with conlangers: he knew what he was doing. SF doesn't have to stick to the real or even the plausible, but authors should at least be clear in their own heads if they're doing space opera or hard SF.

Example: Gibson described his virtual world as a "collective hallucination", which is pure handwavium. Stephenson describes his as a protocol— which is exactly how such a thing would be implemented. And e.g. his description of what a programmer actually does— edit source code for hours in text files— rings true. The graphic interface is for play, not work.

Doesn't Zuckerberg's terrible Metaverse idea come from Snowcrash?

I guess. The thing is, Zuckerberg's "idea" was tried years before, by Second Life, starting in 2003. The developer (Linden Labs) had some notions it would be used in business. Turns out people don't want to hold business meetings in virtual reality with stupid-looking cartoons faces even if Second Life, unlike Zuckerberg's world, let them have legs. They prefer Zoom. (And if you've used Zoom, that is not a high bar.). Second Life works fine for cheap 3-D modeling, hanging out with friends, RPGs, and virtual sex. It never took off for any purpose that would make a techbro billions of dollars. Zuckerberg spent billions on it and didn't even get those things going.

Stephenson got the tech right, but completely missed the boat (as all the cyberpunk writers did) on what ordinary people would do in cyberspace. His only bright idea was nightclubs. Gibson has people buying software in physical stores. It turns out ordinary people love cyberspace— but they're happy with web pages, they don't want to walk around cartoon spaces as cartoon avatars.

[zompist]

The following chart illustrates my basic point regarding neurons and logic gates. The letters represent inputs or signals flowing into the structure, two for the logic gate and any number from one to thousands for the neuron. As you can clearly see, both of these structures have essentially the same function, taking Boolean inputs and producing a Boolean output in response. The neuron does have more inputs, thus allowing a more complex and variegated truth table, but the basic mechanics look pretty similar otherwise.

Tell you what, malloc. I'll give you $2, and you give me $7000 in return. Fair deal? They're exactly the same number, right?

Or here, this diagram reflects the complexity of a logic gate:

xx

While this one reflects the complexity of a neuron. Three orders of magnitude difference, and to you it's the same thing.

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[rotting bones]

Stephenson got the tech right, but completely missed the boat (as all the cyberpunk writers did) on what ordinary people would do in cyberspace. His only bright idea was nightclubs. Gibson has people buying software in physical stores.

IIRC there were no online payments in the Snow Crash Metaverse. In the beginning, a character wonders how he can be sold a drug through the Metaverse since neither physical nor financial transactions are possible.

It turns out ordinary people love cyberspace— but they're happy with web pages, they don't want to walk around cartoon spaces as cartoon avatars.

It's annoying to have to walk around when you just want to be told an answer. On the other hand, physical spaces aid memory like in a memory palace. Are there games that let you walk around a custom 3D palace as an aid to memorization? That might be a good use for a Metaverse.