United States Politics Thread 47

[Raphael]

And, as everyone not living in denial predicted, Trump and Putin have now teamed up to destroy Europe. Great work, everyone!

I would especially like to congratulate all those who said that Trump and Harris are the same. Yes, I'm sure that if Harris would have won, she would have teamed up with Putin to destroy Europe, too! After all, she's at most one femtohitler less bad than Trump! You've got such great political judgment, folks!

And really great thanks to the people who preferred Trump to Harris! It's really nice of you to be in favor of me losing my home and probably my life! Thanks a lot, everyone!

(Sorry. I had a conversation today with someone close to me about how bleak our situation is, and I had to get this off my chest.)

[Travis B.]

My thoughts are similar -- for all those who thought that Harris and Trump could by some means be compared, I really hope you are happy now. (Frankly, everyone who could vote for Harris and didn't can go to hell.)

[alice]

See also: people who insist that "only a true working-class revolution can bring about lasting peace", or similar. I don't know how many of these you have where you are; here they're few but noisy.

[Travis B.]

See also: people who insist that "only a true working-class revolution can bring about lasting peace", or similar. I don't know how many of these you have where you are; here they're few but noisy.

Those who want to wait and do nothing until Teh Revolution magically happens can fuck off.

[WeepingElf]

See also: people who insist that "only a true working-class revolution can bring about lasting peace", or similar. I don't know how many of these you have where you are; here they're few but noisy.

Those who want to wait and do nothing until Teh Revolution magically happens can fuck off.

Seconded.

[Ares Land]

Well, that was appalling.

There may a few positive sides to that whole embarassment: Zelensky certainly won some extra, much needed goodwill.
I think we all knew that Trump and Vance were clowns and thugs, and had nothing good in mind for Ukraine: but now it's unambiguously out in the open, and early on too.

Trump certainly didn't win anything by acting like this. I think if he keeps it up at some point conservatives may even tire of finding him excuses.

[zompist]

Well, that was appalling.

There may a few positive sides to that whole embarassment: Zelensky certainly won some extra, much needed goodwill.
I think we all knew that Trump and Vance were clowns and thugs, and had nothing good in mind for Ukraine: but now it's unambiguously out in the open, and early on too.

It looks like European leaders are willing to step up... I hope they realize it'll take some tough actions, and not just hoping that things calm down and some sort of "peace" emerges. My understanding is that Europe actually has ramped up military production and that this is starting to come online. Well, it's needed now.

Trump certainly didn't win anything by acting like this. I think if he keeps it up at some point conservatives may even tire of finding him excuses.

There are three ways we might try to understand Trump.

1. That he thinks and acts like a rich, crooked businessman: act tough, demand everything, take whatever deal comes out of the bluster.
2. That he is deliberately trying to destroy the country.
3. That he's an actor who's playing role #1 and, forgetting that it's no longer scripted reality TV, ends up accomplishing #2.

The problem with #1 is that though he's a great self-promoter, he's actually a terrible businessman. He was unable to manage Congress in his first term, gave away the store to North Korea, threw away the nuclear deal with Iran, didn't finish his wall, whiffed 2 elections in a row. He was demanding things from Zelensky and offering nothing in return... that is not how negotiations work.

#2 sounds crazy, but it's pretty predictive of what the clown show is actually doing. Destroying the government, destroying the universities, probably causing a depression, trashing public health, abandoning our allies... if the Republicans wanted to destroy the US, that's the way to do it. Why? God knows, but spite is a powerful force. There's someone in our building who is quite similar on a much smaller scale: just unhinged destructiveness, including self-destructiveness, all coming from spite.

I wish #3 was more explanatory than it is. Being an idiot, he may think that being a tough guy means beating up on Canada and Ukraine. But why pick on the weather service?

[bradrn]

The problem with #1 is that though he's a great self-promoter, he's actually a terrible businessman. He was unable to manage Congress in his first term, gave away the store to North Korea, threw away the nuclear deal with Iran, didn't finish his wall, whiffed 2 elections in a row. He was demanding things from Zelensky and offering nothing in return... that is not how negotiations work.

Well, he was a terrible businessman anyway… right? His businesses have been bankrupt six times!

I wish #3 was more explanatory than it is. Being an idiot, he may think that being a tough guy means beating up on Canada and Ukraine. But why pick on the weather service?

Because he’s taking advice from people who do, genuinely, want #2 and are capable of disguising it as #1 for him.

[Raphael]

Oh, I kind of still think both Trump and the people around him really see themselves as saving America from the evil liberal elites that were destroying it.

He probably is deliberately trying to help Russia destroy Europe, though.

[Ares Land]

It looks like European leaders are willing to step up... I hope they realize it'll take some tough actions, and not just hoping that things calm down and some sort of "peace" emerges. My understanding is that Europe actually has ramped up military production and that this is starting to come online. Well, it's needed now.

We're hearing encouraging noises from some European leaders. One problem is that they're frankly uninspiring, and on top of that they also have to deal with Trump-lite at home. So I don't know. Maybe they'll rise up to the occasion.
The one good thing that comes out of the Trump debacle is that they really don't have any excuses now.

#2 sounds crazy, but it's pretty predictive of what the clown show is actually doing. Destroying the government, destroying the universities, probably causing a depression, trashing public health, abandoning our allies... if the Republicans wanted to destroy the US, that's the way to do it. Why? God knows, but spite is a powerful force. There's someone in our building who is quite similar on a much smaller scale: just unhinged destructiveness, including self-destructiveness, all coming from spite.

I think that bit is easily explained by ideology. They (meaning the GOP, or maybe the MAGA folk; I don't know if any sane Republicans are still around?) have a more or less libertarian view of what the government is doing -- it's there to handle the bare minimum, and even the essentials, such as foreign policy, kept at a very basic level. That's a pretty crankish worldview, and it comes with the crank or conspiracy theorist's unshatterable self-confidence.

So coming across government policy they don't understand, they assume it's waste, fraud, or some kind of plot. It never occurs to them that the United States has not, actually, been run by idiots and commies for the past 80 years and that what they're "cleaning up" actually has a purpose.

That's, alas, the predictable result of an ideology that states that everything that goes wrong can be blamed on trans people or immigrants meeting the real world where that just isn't the case.

The good and bad news are that the US are a huge powerhouse that can take a lot of damage so it's not clear when, if ever, voters will take notice.

[Ares Land]

He probably is deliberately trying to help Russia destroy Europe, though.

I honestly don't think he cares either way. Trump and the GOP's ideology is libertarian-isolationist, and they're just seeing money being spent on Ukraine, a non-profitable country.

[Otto Kretschmer]

Trump is (sadly) as much an imperialist as any other POTUS before him.

He simply realizes that the world has changed and the US cannot afford to fight Russia and China at the same time. So he wants to roll up the US pet project in Europe and redirect the resources to fight China. If the US is lucky, US global hegemony can be extended by 5-10 years and the fall of the US from the position of the global hegemon can happen on US terms.

His foreign policy, while far from rational, is still more rational than his domestic policy.

[Raphael]

Trump is (sadly) as much an imperialist as any other POTUS before him.

He simply realizes that the world has changed and the US cannot afford to fight Russia and China at the same time. So he wants to roll up the US pet project in Europe and redirect the resources to fight China. If the US is lucky, US global hegemony can be extended by 5-10 years and the fall of the US from the position of the global hegemon can happen on US terms.

1) I strongly doubt that Trump "realizes" anything. He supports Putin because he likes Putin, and, perhaps more importantly, his ideological base likes Putin. Simple as that.

2) The US hasn't been the "global hegemon" for quite a while now. Large parts of the world have been beyond their reach for long. You're just ideologically committed to the notion that they're the global hegemon.

3) Your interpretation is probably just how your simplistic single-villain-ideology mind tries to makes sense of a complex reality.

[Otto Kretschmer]

Being the global hegemon doesn't mean running everything. Even at the height of US power in the 1990s the US didn't actually run the whole world. But it was the strongest power by far.

Preserving the "unipolar moment" has been the goal of every US administration since then. It's the same for Trump, only the means have changed.

So Trump's foreign policy is rational in that it has a rationale. I'd rate it 5/10. I'd rate Bernie's foreign policy higher: https://berniesanders.com/issues/respon ... gn-policy/

[bradrn]

Oh, I kind of still think both Trump and the people around him really see themselves as saving America from the evil liberal elites that were destroying it.

Indeed… but ‘saving America from the liberals’ is actually precisely the same as ‘destroying the liberalism that made America great’. They want to destroy the US as it currently exists.

[Raphael]

Preserving the "unipolar moment" has been the goal of every US administration since then. It's the same for Trump, only the means have changed.

So Trump's foreign policy is rational in that it has a rationale.

I think that all assumes more of a theoretical background in the minds of Trump and the people around him than there actually is.

[Ares Land]

I forgot about something important: Trump's interest in 'raw materials', which underlines the earlier nonsense about Greenland and informs his dealings with Ukraine.

[Raphael]

I forgot about something important: Trump's interest in 'raw materials', which underlines the earlier nonsense about Greenland and informs his dealings with Ukraine.

Except that, by treating Zelensky the was he did, he made a minerals deal with Ukraine a lot less likely.

[zompist]

Trump is (sadly) as much an imperialist as any other POTUS before him.

He simply realizes that the world has changed and the US cannot afford to fight Russia and China at the same time. So he wants to roll up the US pet project in Europe and redirect the resources to fight China.

I don't see any evidence of that. He's not going to war with China. He's not courting new allies in Asia— in fact SE Asia is, like Europe, starting to plan a non-US future. He's not going to break up the Russia-China entente. It's doubtful he'd intervene if China invades Taiwan. I have no idea what he does think he's getting with Russia; it's no substitute for Europe. Russia has taken the last year to advance like ten miles in Ukraine, what the hell is it going to do against China?

I think, as Raphael says, he just likes dictators.

Where you're right is that US presidents like to be able to project power. What all of them till now have realized is that, to project power, you need forward bases. To have forward bases you need allies. I don't think he's going to get bases in Russia.

If the US is lucky, US global hegemony can be extended by 5-10 years and the fall of the US from the position of the global hegemon can happen on US terms.

I think you're conworlding here. Trump is doing nothing to extend US power; quite the reverse.

As a rising power, what's in China's interest is maintaining the status quo. Hopefully Xi realizes that and doesn't actually try to grab Taiwan. In any case it seems like the magic has gone out of China's growth.

[Torco]

Preserving the "unipolar moment" has been the goal of every US administration since then. It's the same for Trump, only the means have changed.

I'm honestly not sure. there's a certain chilean sociologist that defends the notion that trump is, rather, adapting to the end of that unipolar moment, and it's not absurd: like, he's rolling back some of the apparatus of the overseasempire, picking which allies to keep and which allies to let loose, leaving europe to fend for itself, his focus on bilateral deals. a reasonable middleground seems to be that he's trying to prepare the us for the transition from only big dog to biggest dog in a pack with other big dogs.