United States Politics Thread 47

[keenir]

Alone? They could do it - but its unlikely they'd need to do it alone. They'd have support around the world.

Do you think the few countries left still committed to liberal democracy could defeat the US in battle and deprogram Americans sufficiently for democracy to return here?

Malloc, I'm going to enunciate this so you don't rush past it like I'm laying out an undersized speed bump. Trump is not a dictator. Trump would very much love to become a dictator, but that is not the same as him already being one.

MAGA is not a single unified body politic or body social. Many MAGA are already having what is called Buyers Remorse and regret this soon after they elected Trump.

Neither the USA or anyone else, had to deprogram Japan after WW2. Japan had kamikazi(sp) {i used to know how to spell that} pilots. Japan had officers willing to turn on their own Emperor, their True Believers were that extreme. The USA has no kamikazi(sp)...and before you say it, Jan6 was a mob - mobs are good at property damage and murder. Mobs are not so good at warfare (even Skeleton Archers can only get so threatening). MAGA are no kamikazi.

(and before you say "well nobody had to deprogram Japan, because they didn't have total media control like Trump has or is about to have"...bear in mind nobody needs to deprogram North Koreans when they escape their country either)

There are plenty of countries where the vast majority of people are hopelessly brainwashed.

I am curious what these "plenty of countries" are, where you claim "the vast majority [...] are hopelessly brainwashed." I mean, North Korea is one country, not plenty of them. And even there, its far from hopeless.

[malloc]

I am curious what these "plenty of countries" are, where you claim "the vast majority [...] are hopelessly brainwashed." I mean, North Korea is one country, not plenty of them. And even there, its far from hopeless.

Russia and Hungary come to mind. Putin and Orbán have maintained consistently high approval ratings with no sign of either losing popularity anytime soon. Even if they died tomorrow, their respective electorates would simply vote for whoever promised to gas the gays and immigrants the loudest. Hatred of minorities and a craving for autocracy have become too firmly embedded in the prevailing culture and they cannot unlearn those habits anymore than one can unlearn a taste for their favorite food. It has become my firm conviction that once Trump gets Americans hooked on dictatorship, they will forever crave it like opium the same way Russians do.

[keenir]

I am curious what these "plenty of countries" are, where you claim "the vast majority [...] are hopelessly brainwashed." I mean, North Korea is one country, not plenty of them. And even there, its far from hopeless.

Russia and Hungary come to mind. Putin and Orbán have maintained consistently high approval ratings with no sign of either losing popularity anytime soon. Even if they died tomorrow, their respective electorates would simply vote for whoever promised to gas the gays and immigrants the loudest.

well, I'm glad to see you haven't bought any of the claims of good things ever happening in Hungary and Russia; because you and I both know that neither Putin nor Orban has ever appeased the people with benefits or bought silence with playgrounds and school lunches.

Hatred of minorities and a craving for autocracy have become too firmly embedded in the prevailing culture

O.O

do you even know what country you're in? the USA has had wanna-be autocrats since the days of Jefferson, and minority-hating mobs since Day One of our nation...and yet here we are, in a wealthy nation full of rights and democracy. weirdly, we as a nation are better than the doomscrolling people you follow so intently.

and they cannot unlearn those habits anymore than one can unlearn a taste for their favorite food. It has become my firm conviction that once Trump gets Americans hooked on dictatorship, they will forever crave it like opium the same way Russians do.

Malloc, not only do Americans lack the long-term acclimatization that one could argue the Russian people have had for 200+ years...{withdrawn after i added the above line}

...not only is Trump making his faithful (MAGA and otherwise) backpedal on what they asked for...

...and you'd probably be shocked at how easy it is to learn and unlearn things (did you ever discover you were mispronouncing a word, and after you were corrected, you didn't return to how you'd previously mispronounced it? see how easy that was! )


...but I'm puzzled by your use of opium as an analogy for dictatorship. After all, the people hooked on opium and craving it, were not exactly the most useful members of society - much less able to fight a war for three years, even if they were losing the entire time.

[bradrn]

Neither the USA or anyone else, had to deprogram Japan after WW2. Japan had kamikazi(sp) {i used to know how to spell that} pilots. Japan had officers willing to turn on their own Emperor, their True Believers were that extreme. The USA has no kamikazi(sp)...and before you say it, Jan6 was a mob - mobs are good at property damage and murder. Mobs are not so good at warfare (even Skeleton Archers can only get so threatening). MAGA are no kamikazi.

(and before you say "well nobody had to deprogram Japan, because they didn't have total media control like Trump has or is about to have"...bear in mind nobody needs to deprogram North Koreans when they escape their country either)

Huh? Japan was occupied for 17 years after WWII, with tremendous legal, social, educational and cultural changes. Meanwhile, North Koreans have repeatedly experienced difficulties in integrating with South Korean society.

But of course the US is not Imperial Japan or North Korea. It could turn into a dictatorship, but it isn’t yet. Resistance is the best way of stopping the process; despair is the best way to make it happen.

[keenir]

Neither the USA or anyone else, had to deprogram Japan after WW2. Japan had kamikazi(sp) {i used to know how to spell that} pilots. Japan had officers willing to turn on their own Emperor, their True Believers were that extreme. The USA has no kamikazi(sp)...and before you say it, Jan6 was a mob - mobs are good at property damage and murder. Mobs are not so good at warfare (even Skeleton Archers can only get so threatening). MAGA are no kamikazi.

(and before you say "well nobody had to deprogram Japan, because they didn't have total media control like Trump has or is about to have"...bear in mind nobody needs to deprogram North Koreans when they escape their country either)

Huh? Japan was occupied for 17 years after WWII, with tremendous legal, social, educational and cultural changes.

I didn't mean to suggest it had been easy...though when I said the above in bold, I was referring to the Imperial regime; I suppose the Occupation could be considered deprogramming? I admit I didn't consider it from that angle; sorry.

But of course the US is not Imperial Japan or North Korea. It could turn into a dictatorship, but it isn’t yet. Resistance is the best way of stopping the process; despair is the best way to make it happen.

*nods*

[bradrn]

Neither the USA or anyone else, had to deprogram Japan after WW2. Japan had kamikazi(sp) {i used to know how to spell that} pilots. Japan had officers willing to turn on their own Emperor, their True Believers were that extreme. The USA has no kamikazi(sp)...and before you say it, Jan6 was a mob - mobs are good at property damage and murder. Mobs are not so good at warfare (even Skeleton Archers can only get so threatening). MAGA are no kamikazi.

(and before you say "well nobody had to deprogram Japan, because they didn't have total media control like Trump has or is about to have"...bear in mind nobody needs to deprogram North Koreans when they escape their country either)

Huh? Japan was occupied for 17 years after WWII, with tremendous legal, social, educational and cultural changes.

I didn't mean to suggest it had been easy...though when I said the above in bold, I was referring to the Imperial regime; I suppose the Occupation could be considered deprogramming? I admit I didn't consider it from that angle; sorry.

Yes, I absolutely consider it deprogramming. I don’t know what else you could call things like, for instance, the Humanity Declaration.

[keenir]

Huh? Japan was occupied for 17 years after WWII, with tremendous legal, social, educational and cultural changes.

I didn't mean to suggest it had been easy...though when I said the above in bold, I was referring to the Imperial regime; I suppose the Occupation could be considered deprogramming? I admit I didn't consider it from that angle; sorry.

Yes, I absolutely consider it deprogramming. I don’t know what else you could call things like, for instance, the Humanity Declaration.

I'd heard of his announcement saying he wasn't a god...til now, I hadn't known the speech had a name.


though, and I freely admit this may be splitting hairs, but in the context of the above discussion, I was referring to going from kamikazi willing to kill and die for the emperor & his government, to no longer killing and dying for their goverment; as contrasted with MAGA, which was at most a murderous mob.

I admit - and welcome - that there was more to the transition from pre-War to post-Occupation Japan, than I had intended in that comparison; I fully accept the blame for that..."oversight" is understating it, i suspect.

thank you.

[bradrn]

though, and I freely admit this may be splitting hairs, but in the context of the above discussion, I was referring to going from kamikazi willing to kill and die for the emperor & his government, to no longer killing and dying for their goverment; as contrasted with MAGA, which was at most a murderous mob.

Kami-kaze means ‘divine wind’. And the point is that it’s a perilously short journey from January 6 to that. Though, again, the US isn’t nearly there yet.

[keenir]

though, and I freely admit this may be splitting hairs, but in the context of the above discussion, I was referring to going from kamikazi willing to kill and die for the emperor & his government, to no longer killing and dying for their goverment; as contrasted with MAGA, which was at most a murderous mob.

Kami-kaze means ‘divine wind’.

thank you for the spellcheck.

And the point is that it’s a perilously short journey from January 6 to that. Though, again, the US isn’t nearly there yet.

true.
Trump doesn't have suicide bombers (to bring in another example of people who sometimes do need deprogramming)...we thought he did, but if he does, it only reinforces the lack of unity in either Trump's government or in MAGA, for the bomber blew up his Tesla at the entrance of Trump's hotel.

[Raphael]

This seems to be turning into conworlding.

[malloc]

But of course the US is not Imperial Japan or North Korea. It could turn into a dictatorship, but it isn’t yet. Resistance is the best way of stopping the process; despair is the best way to make it happen.

Resistance has already failed to materialize, though, and the window for it to develop is rapidly closing. Media is rallying around MAGA and soon there will be none left to criticize Trump or provide an alternative perspective. Furthermore public opinion is shifting far to the right with even once staunch liberals like Gavin Newsom turning against transgender people and forth. Give it several more months or at least years and I expect to see the country hegemonically MAGA just as Russia has become hegemonically Putinist.

...and you'd probably be shocked at how easy it is to learn and unlearn things (did you ever discover you were mispronouncing a word, and after you were corrected, you didn't return to how you'd previously mispronounced it? see how easy that was! )

Sure but many political attitudes exist at the level of conditioned response rather than factual knowledge. Once the MAGA regime has conditioned Americans to hate minorities, they will carry that conditioning with them throughout life. Nothing short of years of deliberate deprogramming will change that and even then many people will still feel the gut reaction of hate.

[keenir]

But of course the US is not Imperial Japan or North Korea. It could turn into a dictatorship, but it isn’t yet. Resistance is the best way of stopping the process; despair is the best way to make it happen.

Resistance has already failed to materialize,

and thats one reason why we keep asking you not to doomscroll: because you ignore everything not in the doomscroll, including the many examples of resistance that are nationwide and those that are local.

though, and the window for it to develop is rapidly closing. Media is rallying around MAGA

say it with me now: except for the ones who are not.

and soon there will be none left to criticize Trump or provide an alternative perspective.

if by "soon", you mean "around the time of the heat death of the universe", then yes.

Furthermore public opinion is shifting far to the right with even once staunch liberals like Gavin Newsom turning against transgender people and forth. Give it several more months or at least years and I expect to see the country hegemonically MAGA just as Russia has become hegemonically Putinist.

Trump isn't good or effective at keeping anything but the most obtuse people loyal.

...and you'd probably be shocked at how easy it is to learn and unlearn things (did you ever discover you were mispronouncing a word, and after you were corrected, you didn't return to how you'd previously mispronounced it? see how easy that was! )

Sure but

sure but what? I'm talking to you about learning/unlearning how to pronounce a word, and your response is to drag it back to MAGA?

many political attitudes exist at the level of conditioned response rather than factual knowledge. Once the MAGA regime has conditioned Americans to hate minorities,

C'mon, just tell us which country you're from. Because I'm starting to think that you know less about US history, than you do about AI.

they will carry that conditioning with them throughout life. Nothing short of years of deliberate deprogramming will change that and even then many people will still feel the gut reaction of hate.

Given that the MAGA crowd can't agree on who they're supposed to hate, I can't see their conditioning being at all effective. which means, again, there will be no deprogramming needed.

[malloc]

though, and the window for it to develop is rapidly closing. Media is rallying around MAGA

say it with me now: except for the ones who are not.

What major newspapers and channels have committed themselves to opposing MAGA? Time and time again, I hear about news media firing people on the left and adopting conservative editorial lines. You can perhaps point to niche media that still opposes Trump but that hardly matters when the media that ninety percent of Americans consume still supports him.

Trump isn't good or effective at keeping anything but the most obtuse people loyal.

Yet his share of the vote and approval ratings have only gone up over the past decade. Even after countless scandals, a disastrous first term, and an attempted coup, his approval ratings have reached an all-time high.

Given that the MAGA crowd can't agree on who they're supposed to hate, I can't see their conditioning being at all effective. which means, again, there will be no deprogramming needed.

They know exactly who they hate and they are extremely vocal in their hatred. Currently their favorite targets are immigrants and transgender people. It blows my mind that you have never noticed their ferocious hostility toward either of those demographics, their concerted efforts to deport millions of people and quash LGBT, their thunderous declarations that transgender must be eradicated root and stem. They damn well do agree on who they hate and they feel that hatred deep in their bones.

[keenir]

though, and the window for it to develop is rapidly closing. Media is rallying around MAGA

say it with me now: except for the ones who are not.

What major newspapers and channels have committed themselves to opposing MAGA? Time and time again, I hear about news media firing people

...because you do nothing but doomscroll. that results in you not looking for - and thus not finding anything else.

this is not SETI's "black cat in a dark room"...this is refusing to see the elephant thats standing behind you and picking your pocket.

but that hardly matters when the media that ninety percent of Americans consume still supports him.

reporting "Trump did a thing" is not support, that is reporting. I understand it might be confusing - I was confused too, when I started following the news, when i was twenty.

Trump isn't good or effective at keeping anything but the most obtuse people loyal.

Yet his share of the vote and approval ratings have only gone up over the past decade. Even after countless scandals, a disastrous first term, and an attempted coup, his approval ratings have reached an all-time high.

46% is all time? i believe the expression is "boy you're easily pleased."

Given that the MAGA crowd can't agree on who they're supposed to hate, I can't see their conditioning being at all effective. which means, again, there will be no deprogramming needed.

They know exactly who they hate and they are extremely vocal in their hatred. Currently their favorite targets are immigrants and transgender people.
They damn well do agree on who they hate and they feel that hatred deep in their bones.

they are not united in their hatred. some target minorities, others target trans, others target immigrants, etc...including other MAGA whom they regard as not MAGA enough.

also, i was replying to your claim that the brainwashed non-MAGA will need deprogramming...and you reply "nuh-uh, MAGA do too hate people"

[alice]

Speaking of eggs, Trump's goon has just told us the solution to high egg prices: Just raise your own chickens!
- https://www.huffpost.com/entry/brooke-r ... c440ed7fa7

What a great marketing slogan: "Raise chickens, not egg prices"!

[malloc]

@keenir: How do you think dictatorships come to power and remain there for decades or even generations? Do you think some countries naturally just fall into dictatorship while others are magically immune? There is nothing that makes the US immune to dictatorship and every reason to think we are headed toward one.

[zompist]

@keenir: How do you think dictatorships come to power and remain there for decades or even generations?

The question you should be asking are, how are dictatorships stopped, either before or after they're established?

People have been through this and have thoughts for us.

There are ways to resist, but giving up in advance, calling their victory inevitable, is not one of them. You are pretty much a Russian asset right now. Do better.

[keenir]

@keenir: How do you think dictatorships come to power and remain there for decades or even generations?

we may need to define our terms after this many pages of back-and-forth about dictatorships, given i'm starting to think you aren't using the same definition as the rest of us...or at least not the same one I am.

for example, do you count Colonel Gadafy(sp) as a dictator? do you count the current leader of Syria as a dictator? Canada's PM? where do you draw the line? and don't say its obvious - like the Red Queen, we can think of ten things before breakfast.


I'm tempted to ask if you count Lonesome George as a dictator, given how most naturalists would have done anything needed to make his life easier; some would've even laid down their lives for him.

Do you think some countries naturally just fall into dictatorship while others are magically immune?

magically? no.

an underabundance of people willing to roll over and bemoan the awfulness of things while doing nothing to stop it? absolutely.

There is nothing that makes the US immune to dictatorship

this is true. and parts of the US have fallen into and out of dictatorship under one definition or another. ie, didn't Capone pretty much call the shots in Chicago a whiles back, or Tamany Hall in...I wanna say New York. you wanna explain how this country keeps pulling itself back up and out of tyranny/dictatorship ?

and every reason to think we are headed toward one.

Suure, you keep thinking that, Just remember that, for some people - like myself, in fact - the more I bemoan and wail and sob at the unfairer-than-unfairness of things, the worse i feel...heartburn and headaches are definately no fun.

[rotting bones]

Yet his share of the vote and approval ratings have only gone up over the past decade. Even after countless scandals, a disastrous first term, and an attempted coup, his approval ratings have reached an all-time high.

Although Trump's approval is still equal to his disapproval, it is falling: https://www.natesilver.net/p/trump-appr ... r-bulletin

[rotting bones]

Too bad Trump isn't just the president of the people who could have voted and didn't vote for Harris; they certainly deserve Trump, every last one of them. And yes, that is you, the people who voted for Trump because you thought eggs were too expensive at the grocery store. You deserve this. Being a 'low-information voter' is no excuse for your idiocy.

This is worse than just being low information. MAGA won't believe that Republicans said the things they actually said when it goes against their narrative. When the evidence of their senses contradicts the image of Trump in their heads, it's the "media" spreading fake news: https://youtu.be/3Y5vqRKzDIY?si=k2hglmGHJHLeqP8V

As you can see, it's not a given that the cult will regret its actions.

We see the same phenomenon in Islamist victims of Pakistan's genocide in Bangladesh. They find themselves incapable of believing that Muslims would act unjustly against them no matter what else happens.