United States Politics Thread 47

[alice]

Unlike Hitler, he won't take his life when the hour comes. He will go down making bizarre, unpolitic comments until the last moment.

Potentially amusing diversion: what will his last words will be? "It's gonna be huuuuuge"???

[Linguoboy]

Have you been following the thread? He's literally just admitted that he's pulling Stefanik's nomination because he's afraid of the results of a special election. https://apnews.com/article/elise-stefan ... 416b647f99

I assumed that's just the "two steps forward, one step back" yellow streak that characterizes everything Don and Elon does, from foreign policy to hiring decisions.

Nevertheless it's unambiguously a political calculation--and one which reveals just how much he thinks his support has crashed in places where it was previously secure.

[zompist]

The chilling part is that issuing an EO on voting requirements carries the implicit threat that Trump will cut off Federal funds to states which don't toe the line. However, he's really playing with fire if he takes that route, because if the blue states that primarily fund the Federal government decided to stop remitting their tax receipts, he'd be well and truly screwed.

That would make sense, but I don't think there's a practical way to do that. Employers send money directly to the IRS (and state revenue orgs).

Pritzer (the governor here) is talking about the right things, but I feel like blue states could be stepping in more when the federal government is failing. I see that Pritzer has suggested a constitutional amendment to allow progressive state taxes... maybe that needs to be moved up.

In general the government that provides public services should be the feds, because of the freeloading problem. If Illinois spends another $5 billion on universities, it's providing free services to other states that don't bother to do the same. But even if we get past the current disaster, the wisdom of relying on a single major funding source is now in question.

[rotting bones]

Nevertheless it's unambiguously a political calculation--and one which reveals just how much he thinks his support has crashed in places where it was previously secure.

Giving in to a physiological reaction of fear is not the kind of strategic calculation that will let you predict his moves. I hope I'm wrong about this and he's smarter than he sounds.

[rotting bones]

Potentially amusing diversion: what will his last words will be? "It's gonna be huuuuuge"???

I hope that's what he goes with, not his rambling Joker monologues: We've been waging an all-out war on American democracy. You know what democracy is, right? It's this thing called representation, and other things, like lots of things, are done with democracy, including some negative things. Some say “positive” is always good, but I’ve never agreed with that. Not a lot of people know this. The fake news won't report this. Vets let you grab 'em by the pussy when you're a TV star. But they’ll be fine. Totally fine. They might think they’re going to die—and everybody does die, eventually. But they’ll be fine. You feel fine, right? Look at this machine gun. Such an incredible piece of equipment. Did you know the first machine gun was invented by Hannibal Lecter? Some call it a gun. Some call it a piece. Some call it an arm. I'm not sure anybody even knows what it is. Here, take a slug or two on the brainstem. Still feel fine? Heh, you got me. It's true. I'd have taken a spare lung given the option. *collapse*

[rotting bones]

But even if we get past the current disaster, the wisdom of relying on a single major funding source is now in question.

There's the multipolarity argument that one country shouldn't be the toughest. But if you look at governance rather than power, the same perverse takeover problem arises at every level. Smaller administrations are particularly prone to it. It's easier to find selfless and competent people over a wider area. I remember studies that federal governments are generally much more competent and less corrupt than local governments. And if one country isn't the toughest because of multipolarity, moving away is much more impactful.

[keenir]

I don't think WW3 would actually start; but I do agree that they'd lose such a war if one did begin.

Honestly I am rather divided on this one. Based on history, the best hope for getting rid of the MAGA regime and indeed discrediting it for any substantial length of time would involve America losing WWIII and getting its political institutions rebuilt by democracies. One cannot assume that Trump will even allow elections anymore and certainly one should expect that he will take every possible action to rig them, so ousting MAGA democratically is almost certainly impossible. That assumes people haven't been brainwashed into supporting it like Russians overwhelmingly supporting Putin over the next few years.

Malloc, please look at AMERICAN history, rather than the Nazis you seem obsessed with thinking the US is and always was. We managed to not only survive but get rid of the "dead people vote" system of Chicago, the Taminy Hall of Taft's New York, and so very many others. Trump and MAGA pose no problems we have not already learned how to overcome.

[malloc]

Malloc, please look at AMERICAN history, rather than the Nazis you seem obsessed with thinking the US is and always was. We managed to not only survive but get rid of the "dead people vote" system of Chicago, the Taminy Hall of Taft's New York, and so very many others. Trump and MAGA pose no problems we have not already learned how to overcome.

You are citing local problems limited to one city each whereas Trump has control over the entire US with political powers far beyond what Tammany Hall could imagine. He can marshal immense resources to fight whatever lawsuits he currently faces and fill court vacancies with loyal judges. Rotting bones points out that lawyers are refusing to represent his opponents, which poses massive obstacles for lawsuits against this regime. Trump and his many henchmen also have numerous ways to make voting them out more difficult, from his latest executive order adding obstacles to voting to Musk pouring millions into election campaigns. There are countless other factors all working in his favor like the incredible reach of right wing propaganda to the millions of heavily armed MAGA supporters he could deputize against any serious resistance movement.

[Travis B.]

For just some perspective here, as much as Trump et al are doing their damnedest to turn the US into an authoritarian clusterfuck as fast as possible, the administration still managed to get a major pie on its collective face in basically the entire mainstream media ─ even Fox News couldn't cover it up ─ and none of the people who reported on it have been interned or disappeared, and there is no indication that any of them will be. So it is not apt to compare to the US to Nazi Germany yet ─ and it is inappropriate to suggest that there is no hope of defeating Trump and his friends at this point when we still have a fighting chance. And this is what upsets me about everything malloc and rotting bones have been saying here, the sheer defeatism of it all, when something really can still be done.

[rotting bones]

And this is what upsets me about everything malloc and rotting bones have been saying here, the sheer defeatism of it all, when something really can still be done.

I'm hoping people will realize the sheer magnitude of the attack, get angrier, and protest more instead of relying on the Democrats or curling up into a ball.

[keenir]

I haven't looked into it, but from what I understand, a new executive order effectively allows Musk to purge voters he doesn't like. Trump is not allowed to do that, like almost everything else he's already done. Meanwhile, lawyers are refusing to represent Trump's opponents.

getting fined up the wazoo has that effect on some. what surprises me (kinda) is that the reaction is to do lawsuits for Republicans since they can't do pro bono or other lawsuits for Democrats...instead of doing lawsuits (pro bono or otherwise) for non-Republicans and non-Democrats.

[keenir]

Malloc, please look at AMERICAN history, rather than the Nazis you seem obsessed with thinking the US is and always was. We managed to not only survive but get rid of the "dead people vote" system of Chicago, the Taminy Hall of Taft's New York, and so very many others. Trump and MAGA pose no problems we have not already learned how to overcome.

You are citing local problems limited to one city

*sigh* you're forgetting that Taft was a US President...and that I did not limit it to two - "and so many others", because I thought you were capable of thinking of bad people in US history who were not Nazis.

also, I was under the impression that Taft brought the Taminy Hall system to the White House.

[malloc]

*sigh* you're forgetting that Taft was a US President...and that I did not limit it to two - "and so many others", because I thought you were capable of thinking of bad people in US history who were not Nazis.

also, I was under the impression that Taft brought the Taminy Hall system to the White House.

What? William Taft was never involved with Tammany Hall from what I recall. You must be thinking of William Tweed.

[keenir]

*sigh* you're forgetting that Taft was a US President...and that I did not limit it to two - "and so many others", because I thought you were capable of thinking of bad people in US history who were not Nazis.

also, I was under the impression that Taft brought the Taminy Hall system to the White House.

What? William Taft was never involved with Tammany Hall from what I recall. You must be thinking of William Tweed.

maybe. but I am incredably proud of you now; thank you for proving me right

[zompist]

But even if we get past the current disaster, the wisdom of relying on a single major funding source is now in question.

But if you look at governance rather than power, the same perverse takeover problem arises at every level. Smaller administrations are particularly prone to it. It's easier to find selfless and competent people over a wider area. I remember studies that federal governments are generally much more competent and less corrupt than local governments.

Maybe they are, but at the moment the federal government is being turned into a disaster zone by corrupt and stupid oligarchs. Being in a blue state is a little bit of protection; it'd be nice if it was even more so.

[Ahzoh]

just talked to a Trump glazer tryna tell me this:

if so you do know trump only did those tariffs because Canada has been tariffying that amount for years now and Trump only wanted to make it even/fair. I think that's fair, I didn't know Canada had been tariffying us that amount for years already, I thought there weren't any tariffs on us but there was and I thought we were friends lol but it's only fair if you tarrif us then it's only fair that we tariff you the same lol

I mean all countries have tariffs and Canada is no exception but this just smells like bullshit. All I can find is some 35% tariff thing but the US doesn't even get tariffed nearly that much due to being a "favored country".

[Raphael]

just talked to a Trump glazer tryna tell me this:

if so you do know trump only did those tariffs because Canada has been tariffying that amount for years now and Trump only wanted to make it even/fair. I think that's fair, I didn't know Canada had been tariffying us that amount for years already, I thought there weren't any tariffs on us but there was and I thought we were friends lol but it's only fair if you tarrif us then it's only fair that we tariff you the same lol

I mean all countries have tariffs and Canada is no exception but this just smells like bullshit. All I can find is some 35% tariff thing but the US doesn't even get tariffed nearly that much due to being a "favored country".

I don't know about the details of this, but I'm pretty sure that the US and Canada had the one or other kind of free trade agreement for decades.

[Ahzoh]

just talked to a Trump glazer tryna tell me this:

if so you do know trump only did those tariffs because Canada has been tariffying that amount for years now and Trump only wanted to make it even/fair. I think that's fair, I didn't know Canada had been tariffying us that amount for years already, I thought there weren't any tariffs on us but there was and I thought we were friends lol but it's only fair if you tarrif us then it's only fair that we tariff you the same lol

I mean all countries have tariffs and Canada is no exception but this just smells like bullshit. All I can find is some 35% tariff thing but the US doesn't even get tariffed nearly that much due to being a "favored country".

I don't know about the details of this, but I'm pretty sure that the US and Canada had the one or other kind of free trade agreement for decades.

Nonetheless it is a ridiculous narrative to assert that Trump is not tariffing due to tyrannical anger but because "it's only fair" and "due to years of earlier tariffs of the same amount". In order words, it is Trump that struck the first blow in this trade war.

[Raphael]

I don't know about the details of this, but I'm pretty sure that the US and Canada had the one or other kind of free trade agreement for decades.

Nonetheless it is a ridiculous narrative to assert that Trump is not tariffing due to tyrannical anger but because "it's only fair" and "due to years of earlier tariffs of the same amount". In order words, it is Trump that struck the first blow in this trade war.

Yes, that was my point. It would have been basically illegal for Canada to have the kinds of tariffs you MAGA acquaintance claims it had before the current trade war. Therefore, it is extremely unlikely that such tariffs existed.

[Ahzoh]

I don't know about the details of this, but I'm pretty sure that the US and Canada had the one or other kind of free trade agreement for decades.

Nonetheless it is a ridiculous narrative to assert that Trump is not tariffing due to tyrannical anger but because "it's only fair" and "due to years of earlier tariffs of the same amount". In order words, it is Trump that struck the first blow in this trade war.

Yes, that was my point. It would have been basically illegal for Canada to have the kinds of tariffs you MAGA acquaintance claims it had before the current trade war. Therefore, it is extremely unlikely that such tariffs existed.

Of course, when asked to provide sources all they said was "just google it bro"