United States Politics Thread 47

[WeepingElf]

I also have the impression that many Republicans who criticize Trump do so less for his political positions but rather for how he is threatening to make a fool of himself and thereby help the Democrats win elections.

[keenir]

given that rank-and-file MAGA and Republicans are opposing Trump and speaking out against him, in Town Halls and elsewhere...they've already changed tack.

What percentage, though? You are ignoring the practical reality that supporting Trump is the default and overwhelmingly majority position among Republican voters.

wrong tense: you mean was.

We should assume without hesitation

...that humans exist, will vote, and are more opportunistic than you give them credit for.

that if Republicans retain the House next year, they will continue to support Trump.

why? because you can't tell that your home state =/= the USA? (tho i have doubts that your state is as monolithic as you claim it to be)

You can posit all kinds of counterfactual scenarios where Trump manages to alienate his base but you should not confuse those with concrete evidence.

Even FOX NEWS is talking - for longer than a single day or week - about how Trump keeps alienating his base, and how upset MAGALand and the Republicans are with him.

[jcb]

Trump cherishes and shows off a picture of him and Putin like a 12-year old girl cherishes and shows off a poster of her favorite member of a boy band.
- https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-s ... =124892306
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7IUlQx3hbU

[malloc]

What percentage, though? You are ignoring the practical reality that supporting Trump is the default and overwhelmingly majority position among Republican voters.

wrong tense: you mean was.

Do you have any polls showing that Republicans have turned against Trump in appreciable numbers? It sounds like you are focusing on anecdotes about disgruntled individuals here and there while ignoring the vast majority of Republicans still on his side.

I also have the impression that many Republicans who criticize Trump do so less for his political positions but rather for how he is threatening to make a fool of himself and thereby help the Democrats win elections.

Quite. One should not confuse tactical disagreements with meaningful ideological divides.

[keenir]

What percentage, though? You are ignoring the practical reality that supporting Trump is the default and overwhelmingly majority position among Republican voters.

wrong tense: you mean was.

Do you have any polls showing that Republicans have turned against Trump in appreciable numbers? It sounds like you are focusing on anecdotes about disgruntled individuals here and there while ignoring the vast majority of Republicans still on his side.

I'm looking at headlines, while you're looking at people who - whether you talk to them or not - never give the impression of ever changing their minds.

(and yet they changed their minds at least once: to vote for Trump; as the old saying goes, "would you accept a vow of lifelong loyalty, from someone who just broke their vow of lifelong loyalty?")

I also have the impression that many Republicans who criticize Trump do so less for his political positions but rather for how he is threatening to make a fool of himself and thereby help the Democrats win elections.

Quite. One should not confuse tactical disagreements with meaningful ideological divides.

Both of those categories, neatly hand electoral victories to people who stand apart from Trump.

This is gonna be messier than when the Bull Moose Party split off.

[malloc]

I'm looking at headlines, while you're looking at people who - whether you talk to them or not - never give the impression of ever changing their minds.

(and yet they changed their minds at least once: to vote for Trump; as the old saying goes, "would you accept a vow of lifelong loyalty, from someone who just broke their vow of lifelong loyalty?")

Again where are the polls showing that Republicans widely reject Trump now? Forget splashy headlines about some high profile politician is disillusioned with Trump and show me concrete evidence of broad movement against him.

[keenir]

I'm looking at headlines, while you're looking at people who - whether you talk to them or not - never give the impression of ever changing their minds.

(and yet they changed their minds at least once: to vote for Trump; as the old saying goes, "would you accept a vow of lifelong loyalty, from someone who just broke their vow of lifelong loyalty?")

Again where are the polls showing that Republicans widely reject Trump now? Forget splashy headlines about some high profile politician

and yet you buy every splashy headline about Trump that claims he is more invulnerable than Superman, brainier than Brainiac, more innovative than Batman, and more popular than Mera at SeaWorld.

is disillusioned with Trump and show me concrete evidence of broad movement against him.

Tell me why I should bother! You have yet to show one iota of evidence that you've so much as glanced at any of the concrete evidence that any of us have shown you for over a month now. You're either going to ignore or deny anything I show you, so why should I bother?

I have not told you about splashy headlines in our conversations, I have not specified lone wolf politicians; I have spoken of MAGA organizations and Republican committees and other groups...and you keep misinterpretting so much Trump and Sidious are looking to get you to teach them your ways.

[malloc]

and yet you buy every splashy headline about Trump that claims he is more invulnerable than Superman, brainier than Brainiac, more innovative than Batman, and more popular than Mera at SeaWorld.

We have to face the obvious fact that Trump has scored numerous catastrophic victories since his inauguration. That is not glazing Trump or doomerism as people here would have it, but sober evaluation of our current circumstances. It has taken him less than one year to turn back decades of social and political progress and he has more than three to go. Meanwhile the Democrats remain saddled with an unpopular brand and indirection.

[keenir]

and yet you buy every splashy headline about Trump that claims he is more invulnerable than Superman, brainier than Brainiac, more innovative than Batman, and more popular than Mera at SeaWorld.

We have to face the obvious fact that Trump has scored numerous catastrophic victories since his inauguration.

and has also repeatedly shot himself in the foot and face an equal amount.

That is not glazing Trump or doomerism as people here would have it, but sober evaluation of our current circumstances.

Sober? Who wants to be sober when you are willfully blind to everything that doesn't benefit Trump?? We call it doomerism because you deliberately ignore everything that isn't favoring Trump.

[zompist]

and yet you buy every splashy headline about Trump that claims he is more invulnerable than Superman, brainier than Brainiac, more innovative than Batman, and more popular than Mera at SeaWorld.

We have to face the obvious fact that Trump has scored numerous catastrophic victories since his inauguration. That is not glazing Trump or doomerism as people here would have it, but sober evaluation of our current circumstances.

You sound like a chatbot. This has the shape of a political statement while saying nothing at all. Your "insights" in the last year have amounted to "all is lost woe is me don't do anything Trump is perfect Trump is great lie down before the great Trump." Who the fuck "has to" listen to that?

Do you have a proposal? Anything at all? People are out there resisting, or sometimes just surviving. Maybe you could help them? Or jeez, go help yourself so you have something to say besides despair and Trump-worship.

Meanwhile the Democrats remain saddled with an unpopular brand and indirection.

Sorry that 75 million people have all failed you, and not followed your clever plan of doing nothing and praising fascism.

Again, a lot of people are out there resisting, fighting, organizing, actually helping people. A big fuck you for not noticing or helping their work.

Edit: Maybe this sounds harsh. The thing is, you seem to want to sound like a pundit or an analyst. And you have not earned that. You have no advice to give and no right to give advice. You could just complain about the situation, realizing that you're just one human among millions, but you want to pretend you have some special insight, and it's annoying.

[WeepingElf]

and yet you buy every splashy headline about Trump that claims he is more invulnerable than Superman, brainier than Brainiac, more innovative than Batman, and more popular than Mera at SeaWorld.

We have to face the obvious fact that Trump has scored numerous catastrophic victories since his inauguration. That is not glazing Trump or doomerism as people here would have it, but sober evaluation of our current circumstances.

You sound like a chatbot. This has the shape of a political statement while saying nothing at all. Your "insights" in the last year have amounted to "all is lost woe is me don't do anything Trump is perfect Trump is great lie down before the great Trump." Who the fuck "has to" listen to that?

Do you have a proposal? Anything at all? People are out there resisting, or sometimes just surviving. Maybe you could help them? Or jeez, go help yourself so you have something to say besides despair and Trump-worship.

Meanwhile the Democrats remain saddled with an unpopular brand and indirection.

Sorry that 75 million people have all failed you, and not followed your clever plan of doing nothing and praising fascism.

Again, a lot of people are out there resisting, fighting, organizing, actually helping people. A big fuck you for not noticing or helping their work.

Edit: Maybe this sounds harsh. The thing is, you seem to want to sound like a pundit or an analyst. And you have not earned that. You have no advice to give and no right to give advice. You could just complain about the situation, realizing that you're just one human among millions, but you want to pretend you have some special insight, and it's annoying.

All quoted for truth! People like malloc with their "all is lost" routine demotivate people who are unsure whether something could be done or not. A few years ago, I was at a demonstration against the climate crisis on which one speaker said that it was too late. I got bitterly enraged against him, just as if he had denied the problem. It is essentially the same thing because the consequence is the same: inaction.

[malloc]

Well alright, I realize that my comments here sound horribly depressing and even demotivating. Nonetheless, it just doesn't feel right to deny the overwhelming evidence that we are cooked like a Christmas goose. Why does this thread exist if not to discuss the cold hard facts about the current administration?

[keenir]

okay, I think I understand whats going on. Malloc, is the following statement true or falce? I am seeking the sweet release of submission.

If the answer is True, then perhaps the reason why you can't find anyone to submit to, is because you are in a state full of Trump thralls, and thus you are the most dominant person there.

Nonetheless, it just doesn't feel right to deny the overwhelming evidence that we are cooked like a Christmas goose.

if we were cooked, the country would be dead...why would Trump stay in a place that he can't milk for more money?

Why does this thread exist if not to discuss the cold hard facts about the current administration?

That is one reason, yes: the facts, not the fears.

[malloc]

okay, I think I understand whats going on. Malloc, is the following statement true or falce? I am seeking the sweet release of submission.

If the answer is True, then perhaps the reason why you can't find anyone to submit to, is because you are in a state full of Trump thralls, and thus you are the most dominant person there.

No, my problem is that I know perfectly well that the current situation does not have a happy ending but have to pretend otherwise. Everyone here agrees that I have an obligation to continue living even though I know perfectly well that there is no point and it will only bring me more and more pain until they reach my name on the list of dissidents and do me in.

[keenir]

most important part first:

until they reach my name on the list of dissidents and do me in.

What list of dissidents? And why exactly do you think that you rate highly enough to be on any list of dissidents? People like Trump and Miller have, as the saying goes, far bigger fish to fry.

okay, I think I understand whats going on. Malloc, is the following statement true or falce? I am seeking the sweet release of submission.

If the answer is True, then perhaps the reason why you can't find anyone to submit to, is because you are in a state full of Trump thralls, and thus you are the most dominant person there.

No, my problem is that I know perfectly well that the current situation

Malloc, I was trying to get you to crack a smile, to realize that people can tell humor to one another. But you seem to be too busy genuflecting to understand why you're the only one eagerly awaiting Trump turning into a god on earth.

does not have a happy ending but have to pretend otherwise.

I'm going to tell you what people have told me for fourty years: pull your self our of your head. (and pull that head out of your arse)

Everyone here agrees that I have an obligation to continue living even though I know perfectly well that there is no point

you don't want to outlive Trump? you're going to give him that victory too? for Fs sake, is there anything you want???

and it will only bring me more and more pain

So you feel that Trump et al will bring you pain...yet you want to not do anything to cause them pain in return or in advance...and you don't want to do anything that could stop them from bringing pain to anyone, yourself included. Does that sum it up?

[bradrn]

Everyone here agrees that I have an obligation to continue living even though I know perfectly well that there is no point

you don't want to outlive Trump? you're going to give him that victory too? for Fs sake, is there anything you want???

and it will only bring me more and more pain

So you feel that Trump et al will bring you pain...yet you want to not do anything to cause them pain in return or in advance...and you don't want to do anything that could stop them from bringing pain to anyone, yourself included. Does that sum it up?

Quoted for emphasis. Channel your energies into fighting back, not into despairing. Hitler and other monsters would never have been defeated without the efforts of people who opposed then.

[keenir]

Everyone here agrees that I have an obligation to continue living even though I know perfectly well that there is no point

you don't want to outlive Trump? you're going to give him that victory too? for Fs sake, is there anything you want???

and it will only bring me more and more pain

So you feel that Trump et al will bring you pain...yet you want to not do anything to cause them pain in return or in advance...and you don't want to do anything that could stop them from bringing pain to anyone, yourself included. Does that sum it up?

Quoted for emphasis. Channel your energies into fighting back, not into despairing. Hitler and other monsters would never have been defeated without the efforts of people who opposed then.

I can predict what Malloc will say here: But that took half the planet fighting Germany; nobody wants to fight the US now.

Nevermind that Hitler was actively opposed by people within both German-occupied lands and also within Germany itself.

just off the top of my head: French resistance, Poland's multiple uprisings, and all the times Germans tried to assassinate Hitler.

[bradrn]

Nevermind that Hitler was actively opposed by people within both German-occupied lands and also within Germany itself.

just off the top of my head: French resistance, Poland's multiple uprisings, and all the times Germans tried to assassinate Hitler.

Yep, that’s what I was referring to!

(Besides, the rest of the world is resisting the US…)

[keenir]

Nevermind that Hitler was actively opposed by people within both German-occupied lands and also within Germany itself.

just off the top of my head: French resistance, Poland's multiple uprisings, and all the times Germans tried to assassinate Hitler.

Yep, that’s what I was referring to!

(Besides, the rest of the world is resisting the US…)

Probably not good enough...last time the comparison came up, Malloc wanted it to be 100% paralel -- meaning the allied forces have to march into all of the US.


For a while, I've been trying to think of a different analogy or comparison that might help out...and I think I have it now: in the tv series Cells At Work and Cells At Work: Code Black, some episodes have non-immune cells despairing that there is nothing they can possibly do against bad bacteria, an unhealthy body, Killer Cells running amuk, etc. some of these are hair cells, liver cells, and just regular cells of no specifications.

and yet, every time, something is found for these cells to do to help fight off the problem. Sometimes the Red or White Blood Cells help come up with the solution, sometimes they don't.

and a lot of times, we see Platelets help to solve the problem. and Plateless are maybe - physically speaking - five or eight years old .


ps: sadly, so far as i am aware, there is no tv adaptation of the third book series Cells At Work: Baby.

[zompist]

Why does this thread exist if not to discuss the cold hard facts about the current administration?

A question worth answering, because the answer is not "so people will give up and praise Trump".

Obviously, there's a discussion thread so people can discuss current politics. We all read the news, so why do we do that? Many reasons:

* To point out events others might not be aware of— that is, to point out evil actions, to motivate resistance
* To mock the fascists— which reduces their power and strengthens resistance.
* To point out acts of resistance or failures in the Republican blitzkrieg, or call for more.
* Within reason, to commiserate with each other— not to discourage each other, but to emphasize that we're all in this shitty situation together and vent a bit.

We're not an activist group and don't have to be. Sometimes all a person can do is survive, and cheer on those who are resisting.

Cheer on, not ignore or demoralize. Defeatism is literally collaboration.