Russia invades Ukraine

[rotting bones]

I used ctrl+F, a notepad, and three colors of ink, and I am still not sure what I am believed to have said.

That something substantial was gained towards ending the war last week:

He did it. Putin got what he wanted.

"I have cooled down regarding this question a long time ago after we understood that ... NATO is not prepared to accept Ukraine," Zelenskyy said in a televised interview. "The alliance is afraid of controversial things, and confrontation with Russia."

War successfully completed. Once they hammer out some formal negotiations everyone can go home.

Neither in negotiations nor in combat am I seeing any such indication.

I would say that rotting bones missed the substance of my comment because I was being slightly facetious, but then I read that he said Fatah is in charge of Gaza, so he clearly understands humor.

Hamas is currently not in power.

Would you prefer, "Hamas is currently not in power in Palestine"? Like the government of Abkhazia is not in power in Georgia.

[Moose-tache]

If the war is over...

Something substantial was gained towards ending the war last week

Did you make this instructional video?

[bradrn]

I used ctrl+F, a notepad, and three colors of ink, and I am still not sure what I am believed to have said.

That something substantial was gained towards ending the war last week:

Did you make this instructional video?

To be fair, it isn’t such a big distance from ‘War successfully completed … everyone can go home’ to ‘something substantial was gained towards ending the war last week’.

[Moose-tache]

I AM RUNNING OUT OF RED STRING AND THUMB TACKS PLZ STAHP

[bradrn]

I AM RUNNING OUT OF RED STRING AND THUMB TACKS PLZ STAHP

I really don’t understand what is confusing about this. Saying ‘war successfully completed’ is generally considered a statement that the war in question is nearly if not entirely finished.

(Just for the record, I disagree with rotting bones about a lot of things, including his statements here, though my arguments have been adequately covered by other people including yourself. I am not arguing with you. But accurate communication is important! Especially if we’re reduced to communication via text as we are doing now.)

[rotting bones]

If the war is over...

Something substantial was gained towards ending the war last week

Did you make this instructional video?

I moved them for your benefit, not mine. I'm not interested in attacking anyone. I'm honestly asking if there is news of behind the scenes negotiations that I missed. You see, I stopped reading the news near the end of Trump's presidency when my blood pressure couldn't take it anymore. I'm trying to trick you into working as an unpaid news aggregator for me.

[rotting bones]

(Just for the record, I disagree with rotting bones about a lot of things, including his statements here, though my arguments have been adequately covered by other people including yourself. I am not arguing with you. But accurate communication is important! Especially if we’re reduced to communication via text as we are doing now.)

Let me know what I got wrong.

[bradrn]

(Just for the record, I disagree with rotting bones about a lot of things, including his statements here, though my arguments have been adequately covered by other people including yourself. I am not arguing with you. But accurate communication is important! Especially if we’re reduced to communication via text as we are doing now.)

Let me know what I got wrong.

This is not really a conversation I personally want to get into, and not only because I haven’t been following this thread all that closely. As I said, the others are doing a good enough job of arguing my case.

[keenir]

OK, I did my best to explain myself in as much detail as patience allowed while typing on a phone.

maybe you need a computer?

BTW, I've said much of this already in posts I submitted a long time ago.

*raised eyebrow* I apologized for our mutual talking past one another a while back & asked you to clarify what i misunderstood...and you never replied, other than to say "you got me all wrong" as people used to say.

"Here I am a barbarian for no-one understands me."

Yeah, I figured either I could use the Classical Greek quote, or use the Gandhi joke about Western Civilization.

or point out that a. there is a difference between "a civilized man" and "a civilization"...and b. if you get killed for just saying "barbarian", theres a whole nother problem taking place.

I believe in civilization if you allow me to use paradoxical formulations like: A civilization is exactly what it's not.

is a civilization water, then? many parts of civilization - like the people in it - depend on water to clean themselves and remove waste.

is a civilization stone and brick? thats what constructs the elements of physical structures, both to be lived in and to be used for other purposes (such as giant sundials)

I see the Islamists in an analogous way. Traditionalists can get away with routine abuse because they can plausibly argue that respect for authority is a traditional value no matter what civilization they claim to be defending.

I'm confused what your argument is, here and for that point. Are you saying civilization is either bad or undefineable...because there exist people who use the excuse of tradition to excuse their bad behavior?

should we be worried that you think the Gaza Strip could only be ruled by a dictatorship?

I have already explained what I want in terms of governance in the Capitalism thread.[/quote]

please remind us, for those of us with poor memories.

as I understand it (from it being explained to me by those who knew more about the subject, people, and local politics than I did), a large % of Hamas' popularity and ability to be elected, is because Hamas provides things that are needed - schools, civic events, garbage cleanup, etc. You know, the things a government is supposed to be able to provide its citizens.

Irrelevant. This conversation is about whether Israel should fear an independent Palestine. Israel doesn't care why Hamas is popular as long as Hamas remains committed to wiping Israel off the face of the earth.

And, so long as Hamas is the best option for providing schools (etc) as well as opposing things like illegal settlements, guess who will always have the support of the people of the Occupied Territories.

yes yes, Ben Franklin (i think) made the quip about people who want safety...which I guess he learned from watching all those oppressed Frenchmen while he was out partying in Paris.

Regarding your point: Obviously having good governance is better than not having it. The question is whether it's worth the violation of human rights that would come from turning Palestine into an Islamic state, which is the stated goal of Hamas.

Right now, and for years, the biggest threat to the Palestinian Christians, Samaritans, and other groups...is not Hamas. They may justifiably feel Hamas is what keeps them safer than they may otherwise be. So guess who they're going to throw their support behind.

My ideal position is that this is a false dichotomy. Obviously, the aim should be a society with good governance AND where women aren't stoned/caned/etc. for committing adultery.

Great idea. Now convince Israel to rein in their Ultra-Orthodox and other similarly extreme groups.

Israel can't for the same reason Hamas and Iran can't: the extreme members are politically required to have a stable government and to get things done like repel attacks. (attempts to form governments with minimal or naught extreme members, tend to require extremely fraught and fragile alliances with various political groups...usually collapsing for one reason or other, leaving only two options at the times: form a more usual joint governance with the militarists, or call for an election that may replace your party entirely with a more hardcore one)

the fact stated in my prior disclaimer of this thread, still applies; though I harbor doubts things have changed that much in 10-15 years, i will grant that its certainly possible that they have indeed changed.

[rotting bones]

This is not really a conversation I personally want to get into, and not only because I haven’t been following this thread all that closely. As I said, the others are doing a good enough job of arguing my case.

No pressure. I still don't understand which of my points about Israel have been corrected though.

*raised eyebrow* I apologized for our mutual talking past one another a while back & asked you to clarify what i misunderstood...and you never replied, other than to say "you got me all wrong" as people used to say.

Long before that happened.

I'm confused what your argument is, here and for that point. Are you saying civilization is either bad or undefineable...because there exist people who use the excuse of tradition to excuse their bad behavior?

It's not just some people. The people beating the drum of tradition the loudest are the hypocrites. Nevertheless, they are not the majority. They are not even the majority of traditionalists. See the detailed explanation I posted below:

Even if you love Rama, surely you can see that Rama is famous for being a just king who consigned his wife to the flames to make his subjects happy, and that the BJP is perpetating injustice even as they recite Rama's name! This is the split I'm referring to every time I say that I don't like values or that I don't believe in the existence of civilization. I'm not saying I don't believe in values because I want to lie. I'm saying I don't believe in values in the sense that those who are making a big show of telling the truth are lying more often than those who are too innocent to remember that they shouldn't be lying. Think of society as a magic trick. If a magician is making a big show of showing you his empty palm, that should only make you more suspicious!

please remind us, for those of us with poor memories.

See this post onwards: http://verduria.org/viewtopic.php?p=38558#p38558 I don't enjoy talking about politics much, but since I keep doing it, I might as well put this link in my signature.

And, so long as Hamas is the best option for providing schools (etc) as well as opposing things like illegal settlements, guess who will always have the support of the people of the Occupied Territories.

There used to be a groundswell of Marxist support in Arab countries. Why did it all vanish? Is it only because there is money behind Islamist parties, or do humans really enjoy brutalizing adulterers that much?

Right now, and for years, the biggest threat to the Palestinian Christians, Samaritans, and other groups...is not Hamas. They may justifiably feel Hamas is what keeps them safer than they may otherwise be. So guess who they're going to throw their support behind.

They might feel differently once Palestine is free, which is the situation we're talking about.

Great idea. Now convince Israel to rein in their Ultra-Orthodox and other similarly extreme groups.

I already said that Israel has extremists:

If a significant presence of murderous extremists is sufficient to make Palestine a failed state, then Israel, Ukraine and Russia are all failed states too, aren't they?

However, I feel obligated to point out that the Ultra-Orthodox are very often Anti-Zionist, even the ones living in Israel. It's the ones interested in compromise who are the most prepared to compromise with their morals.

Credit given where it's due.

[Ares Land]

However, I feel obligated to point out that the Ultra-Orthodox are very often Anti-Zionist, even the ones living in Israel. It's the ones interested in compromise who are the most prepared to compromise with their morals.

I don't think so. As far as I know, anti-Zionist haredim, such as Neturei Karta are really a small minority.

[rotting bones]

I don't think so. As far as I know, anti-Zionist haredim, such as Neturei Karta are really a small minority.

If that's true, then I'm mistaken. I'm more familiar with Jewish scripture than modern sects. However, see the ideology sections of this article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredim_and_Zionism My understanding is that the Haredim are the Ultra-Orthodox.

PS. Or if you're not interested in the exact positions, there's this sentence: 'According to a 2016 Pew survey, 33% of Israeli Haredim say that the term "Zionist" describes them accurately.' Citing this article: https://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/08/vie ... -diaspora/

[Ares Land]

Numerically, I think I'm correct. (With the caveat that I'm nowhere near being an expert in this matter!)
As the Wikipedia pages note, Sephardic Haredim groups are Zionist, and they're a majority -- plus they're better organized politically.

[rotting bones]

Numerically, I think I'm correct. (With the caveat that I'm nowhere near being an expert in this matter!)
As the Wikipedia pages note, Sephardic Haredim groups are Zionist, and they're a majority -- plus they're better organized politically.

That seems unlikely to me given the Pew survey:

'According to a 2016 Pew survey, 33% of Israeli Haredim say that the term "Zionist" describes them accurately.' Citing this article: https://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/08/vie ... -diaspora/

What's more likely is that Hamas might describe some of these non-Zionist positions as Zionist from their perspective.

[Ares Land]

That seems unlikely to me given the Pew survey:

My bad, then! I was mistaken.

What's more likely is that Hamas might describe some of these non-Zionist positions as Zionist from their perspective.

That's indeed very likely.

[keenir]

*raised eyebrow* I apologized for our mutual talking past one another a while back & asked you to clarify what i misunderstood...and you never replied, other than to say "you got me all wrong" as people used to say.

Long before that happened.

wait, so you're still mad about what happened before you and I came to an agreement to explain our arguments and views better?

I'm confused what your argument is, here and for that point. Are you saying civilization is either bad or undefineable...because there exist people who use the excuse of tradition to excuse their bad behavior?

It's not just some people. The people beating the drum of tradition the loudest are the hypocrites. Nevertheless, they are not the majority. They are not even the majority of traditionalists

Is that a yes to my question?

or are you yourself loudly saying "look over here! so we don't notice you didn't answer? (and don't you hate it when people get loud about things?)

Even if you love Rama, surely you can see that Rama is famous for being a just king who consigned his wife to the flames to make his subjects happy,

wait, thats the only reason Rama is famous?

and that the BJP is perpetating injustice even as they recite Rama's name!

so you don't like moderate groups because extremist groups exist?

This is the split I'm referring to every time I say that I don't like values or that I don't believe in the existence of civilization. I'm not saying I don't believe in values because I want to lie. I'm saying I don't believe in values in the sense that those who are making a big show of telling the truth are lying more often than those who are too innocent to remember that they shouldn't be lying.

'too innocent to remember'?



starting to sound like you don't think people should be fed, because gluttons exist.

please remind us, for those of us with poor memories.

See this post onwards: http://verduria.org/viewtopic.php?p=38558#p38558 I don't enjoy talking about politics much, but since I keep doing it, I might as well put this link in my signature.

And, so long as Hamas is the best option for providing schools (etc) as well as opposing things like illegal settlements, guess who will always have the support of the people of the Occupied Territories.

There used to be a groundswell of Marxist support in Arab countries. Why did it all vanish? Is it only because there is money behind Islamist parties, or do humans really enjoy brutalizing adulterers that much?

One could say its because the USSR isn't funding the Marxists...one could say the Marxist parties aren't the ones with the charismatic leaders to attract funding...or perhaps they're quietly biding their time, given that one of the larger Marxist (Socialist?) parties was in pre-Revolution Iran.

Or maybe the Muslims got tired of all being called Arabs.

Right now, and for years, the biggest threat to the Palestinian Christians, Samaritans, and other groups...is not Hamas. They may justifiably feel Hamas is what keeps them safer than they may otherwise be. So guess who they're going to throw their support behind.

They might feel differently once Palestine is free, which is the situation we're talking about.

They might...but theres an old saying here in the US: "why should I worry about something that will never happen?" For the people there, worrying about an independent Gaza is like us worrying about an independent Alaska, or Siberia invading western Russia.

[FlamyobatRudki]

As for siberia invading Western Russia if that were to happen then obviously Western Russia did something to deserved it. This is the official cardassian position on that matter.

[Raphael]

Apparently, Putin has held a large rally in some kind of stadium where he spoke under a banner or sign of some kind that said "A World Without Nazism". Because nothing says A World Without Nazism like a strongman ruler who despises democracy making a speech about the glories of the war, sorry, "special military operation" he's waging at a massive rally in front of thousands of cheering supporters.

[MacAnDàil]

Indeed, except that they are not even necessarily his cheering supporters: "Many people at the rally told the BBC they worked in the public sector and had been pressured into attending by their employers." https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60798936

[Travis B.]

What a load of pro-Putin apologetics, while claiming not to apologize for him. Blaming NATO for Putin's war, or even implying some sort of shared responsibility, is apology for Putin.