rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:48 am
OK, I did my best to explain myself in as much detail as patience allowed while typing on a phone.
maybe you need a computer?
BTW, I've said much of this already in posts I submitted a long time ago.
*raised eyebrow* I apologized for our mutual talking past one another a while back & asked you to clarify what i misunderstood...and you never replied, other than to say "you got me all wrong" as people used to say.
keenir wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:10 pm
"Here I am a barbarian for no-one understands me."
Yeah, I figured either I could use the Classical Greek quote, or use the Gandhi joke about Western Civilization.
or point out that a. there is a difference between "a civilized man" and "a civilization"...and b. if you get killed for just saying "barbarian", theres a whole nother problem taking place.
I believe in civilization if you allow me to use paradoxical formulations like: A civilization is exactly what it's not.
is a civilization water, then? many parts of civilization - like the people in it - depend on water to clean themselves and remove waste.
is a civilization stone and brick? thats what constructs the elements of physical structures, both to be lived in and to be used for other purposes (such as giant sundials)
I see the Islamists in an analogous way. Traditionalists can get away with routine abuse because they can plausibly argue that respect for authority is a traditional value no matter what civilization they claim to be defending.
I'm confused what your argument is, here and for that point. Are you saying civilization is either bad or undefineable...because there exist people who use the excuse of
tradition to excuse their bad behavior?
keenir wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:10 pm
should we be worried that you think the Gaza Strip could only be ruled by a dictatorship?
I have already explained what I want in terms of governance in the Capitalism thread.[/quote]
please remind us, for those of us with poor memories.
keenir wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:10 pm
as I understand it (from it being explained to me by those who knew more about the subject, people, and local politics than I did), a large % of Hamas' popularity and ability to be elected, is because Hamas provides things that are needed - schools, civic events, garbage cleanup, etc. You know, the things a government is supposed to be able to provide its citizens.
Irrelevant. This conversation is about whether Israel should fear an independent Palestine. Israel doesn't care why Hamas is popular as long as Hamas remains committed to wiping Israel off the face of the earth.
And, so long as Hamas is the best option for providing schools (etc) as well as opposing things like illegal settlements, guess who will always have the support of the people of the Occupied Territories.
yes yes, Ben Franklin (i think) made the quip about people who want safety...which I guess he learned from watching all those oppressed Frenchmen while he was out partying in Paris.
Regarding your point: Obviously having good governance is better than not having it. The question is whether it's worth the violation of human rights that would come from turning Palestine into an Islamic state, which is the stated goal of Hamas.
Right now, and for years, the biggest threat to the Palestinian Christians, Samaritans, and other groups...is not Hamas. They may justifiably feel Hamas is what keeps them safer than they may otherwise be. So guess who they're going to throw their support behind.
My ideal position is that this is a false dichotomy. Obviously, the aim should be a society with good governance AND where women aren't stoned/caned/etc. for committing adultery.
Great idea. Now convince Israel to rein in
their Ultra-Orthodox and other similarly extreme groups.
Israel can't for the same reason Hamas and Iran can't: the extreme members are politically required to have a stable government and to get things done like repel attacks. (attempts to form governments with minimal or naught extreme members, tend to require extremely fraught and fragile alliances with various political groups...usually collapsing for one reason or other, leaving only two options at the times: form a more usual joint governance with the militarists, or call for an election that may replace your party entirely with a more hardcore one)
the fact stated in my prior disclaimer of this thread, still applies; though I harbor doubts things have changed that much in 10-15 years, i will grant that its certainly possible that they have indeed changed.