Zompist Bboard Again

rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:08 pm [

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:24 am Not just for Jews. In case you missed it, a Palestinian boy living in a suburb of Chicago was stabbed 26 times by an elderly man who was reportedly influenced by right-wing radio. His young mother was stabbed 12 times. To say things just got more tense for the Palestinian community out here is an understatement.

There have also been hate crimes against Sikhs and anyone perceived to be "Muslim" generally. I wonder what Ibn Arabi's comprehensive interpretation of the divine plan would have to say about this.

This reminds me of the Sikh gurdwara massacre here in Wisconsin back in 2012.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:08 pm Capitalism educates people so poorly that you can't even have overly negative coverage on Israel in America, since that would increase Antisemitism. Antisemitism is a bigger problem than Islamophobia because if the right agrees on Jews being the bad guys, that would create a big tent Nazi alliance against the left.

Spreading hatred against any group, whether Jewish or Arab (I was about to write "Muslim", but not all Arabs are Muslim, and then I was going to write "Palestinian", but then hatemongers don't really care if someone is actually Palestinian per se or not), will result in further hate crimes, even if those spreading said hatred do not specifically encourage such acts explicitly.

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:22 am I assume "500 years old" is modern for you.

Early modernity begins from 1500.

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:22 am "global Islamism"???

Not sure what a public apostate is...my grandmother converted to an entirely different religion, and even the most hardcore member of her family didn't label her an apostate.

{EDIT: I have heard of apostates, yes; and I've heard of people having warrants out for them - ie Rushdie(sp)...is that what you mean by "public apostate"?}

You have no idea. I literally have the word "Islam" in my name. Every single person, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, asks me how religious I am. I'm extremely uncomfortable with the reaction I get from fundamentalists when I tell them I'm an atheist. The number of fundamentalists keep growing in recent years.

There's a huge global movement to promote religious conservatism through Islam funded by Saudi oil. In my opinion, the left's response to the growth of this network has been unsatisfactory. If they had been able to create a proper leftist pipeline, I might not be forced to unjustly oppose the Palestinian struggle today.

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:22 am as I understand it, Youtube looks at what you've looked at, and says "okay, what things are related, tangentically or mostly, to what this person has seen?"

Nope. Since I literally have the word "Islam" in my name, YouTube has promoted ISIS videos to me without me asking for anything related. New faces pop up faster than I can block them.

Having said that, I hate some of these influencers more than others. Blogging Theology, while he promotes religious conservatism like the rest, including flogging, he at least attempts to put on an academic veneer.

BTW, Blogging Theology is a Sufi. Contrary to public perception, most non-Western Sufis tend to be more conservative than most Muslims, though less so than the Salafis.

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:22 am that Herod the Great's grandfather was converted at swordpoint before the Romans ruled Judea? that was your point?

There is no global Jewish drive to promote religious conservatism.

Having said that, I hope your realize your statement about Herod was an exaggeration. Rabbinates did enforce Jewish law within the limits of their power, Spinoza was stabbed by a zealot in early modernity, etc.

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:22 am Dude, I was about to retract my statement, as I'd gone back through the thread and re-read all your posts; you did not give overt support to Hamas.

Ok then, thank you.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:30 pm Spreading hatred against any group, whether Jewish or Arab (I was about to write "Muslim", but not all Arabs are Muslim, and then I was going to write "Palestinian", but then hatemongers don't really care if someone is actually Palestinian per se or not), will result in further hate crimes, even if those spreading said hatred do not specifically encourage such acts explicitly.

I don't support spreading hate against any group. In my opinion, the mainstream media's coverage of Israel has been inaccurately positive. I think even an accurate portrayal of Israel would increase Antisemitism among people who don't realize just how many Jews oppose Israel.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:40 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:30 pm Spreading hatred against any group, whether Jewish or Arab (I was about to write "Muslim", but not all Arabs are Muslim, and then I was going to write "Palestinian", but then hatemongers don't really care if someone is actually Palestinian per se or not), will result in further hate crimes, even if those spreading said hatred do not specifically encourage such acts explicitly.

I don't support spreading hate against any group. In my opinion, the mainstream media's coverage of Israel has been inaccurately positive. I think even an accurate portrayal of Israel would increase Antisemitism among people who don't realize just how many Jews oppose Israel.

The big thing is that many wrongly conflate the State of Israel with Jews, even though there are countless Jews globally with no connection to Israel. Consequently criticism of the State of Israel ends up leading to anti-Semitism even when it is entirely justified. If it wasn't for this, things such as the Jewish exodus from the Arab world might never have happened.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:34 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:22 am"global Islamism"???

Not sure what a public apostate is...my grandmother converted to an entirely different religion, and even the most hardcore member of her family didn't label her an apostate.

{EDIT: I have heard of apostates, yes; and I've heard of people having warrants out for them - ie Rushdie(sp)...is that what you mean by "public apostate"?}

You have no idea. I literally have the word "Islam" in my name.

and I literally have "Christian" in my name - and nobody asks/bugs me about it, no matter what their faith is or where on Earth I am.

Every single person, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, asks me how religious I am. I'm extremely uncomfortable with the reaction I get from fundamentalists when I tell them I'm an atheist.

And, knowing how they react, you keep telling them you're an atheist, rather than, say, nonpracticing? That'd not be a lie, if you were worried about honesty.

so, do you declare yourself here to be a public apostate because you keep telling fundamentalists that you're an atheist? if not, then I don't understand why you think you are one. {a public apostate, that is}

If they had been able to create a proper leftist pipeline, I might not be forced to unjustly oppose the Palestinian struggle today.

???

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:22 am as I understand it, Youtube looks at what you've looked at, and says "okay, what things are related, tangentically or mostly, to what this person has seen?"

Nope. Since I literally have the word "Islam" in my name, YouTube has promoted ISIS videos to me without me asking for anything related.

Have you tried clicking anywhere to say "this is not my interest" or "please stop" ?

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:22 am that Herod the Great's grandfather was converted at swordpoint before the Romans ruled Judea? that was your point?

There is no global Jewish drive to promote religious conservatism.

Having said that, I hope your realize your statement about Herod was an exaggeration. Rabbinates did enforce Jewish law within the limits of their power, Spinoza was stabbed by a zealot in early modernity, etc.

Stabbed by a zealot (though not a Zealot)...I thought we were both speaking of groups, of populations.

I give up.

---

Some people who are following closely now think the 500 deaths didn't happen: https://youtu.be/v76Ks5E3nKo

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:24 am

bradrn wrote:Either way, one thing’s for certain: for average Jews like me, life is going to get steadily more unsafe.

Not just for Jews. In case you missed it, a Palestinian boy living in a suburb of Chicago was stabbed 26 times by an elderly man who was reportedly influenced by right-wing radio. His young mother was stabbed 12 times. To say things just got more tense for the Palestinian community out here is an understatement.

Yes, I know. I think it’s a tragedy. However, am I not allowed to worry about my own safety?

(Also — and I note the non-Israeli media I’ve seen have avoided reporting this — the funeral was attended by many prominent Jewish rabbis from around Chicago. Clearly, the Jewish community is universally willing to condemn these attacks. Maybe I’m being unjustly suspicious, but if the situation were reversed, I’d find it hard to imagine many Palestinian leaders attending a Jewish funeral. I hope I never need to learn whether this is the case or not.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 6:38 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:24 am

bradrn wrote:Either way, one thing’s for certain: for average Jews like me, life is going to get steadily more unsafe.

Not just for Jews. In case you missed it, a Palestinian boy living in a suburb of Chicago was stabbed 26 times by an elderly man who was reportedly influenced by right-wing radio. His young mother was stabbed 12 times. To say things just got more tense for the Palestinian community out here is an understatement.

Yes, I know. I think it’s a tragedy. However, am I not allowed to worry about my own safety?

(Also — and I note the non-Israeli media I’ve seen have avoided reporting this — the funeral was attended by many prominent Jewish rabbis from around Chicago. Clearly, the Jewish community is universally willing to condemn these attacks. Maybe I’m being unjustly suspicious, but if the situation were reversed, I’d find it hard to imagine many Palestinian leaders attending a Jewish funeral. I hope I never need to learn whether this is the case or not.)

That's what I'd expect. Since Israel was created in living memory, Jews are less attached to Israel than Palestinians are to Palestine. In living memory, Jews have come from many different homelands, but all Palestinians are attached to Palestine as their only homeland. If Palestine ceases to exist, they will be left in permanent exile like Jews have been for millennia. That said, Muslims generally almost always support the Jewish community in the West.

PS. Although I'd imagine this would be true if you'd said Israeli funeral. I don't think Palestinians in the West would refuse to attend Jewish funerals generally.

regarding the hospital massacre, some evidence (not terribly conclusive, but still) is the number of sources claiming that zionist influencer hananya naftali tweeted about "israeli airstrike of a hamas base inside a hospital, killing many terrorists", then shortly deleted the tweet as israel started blaming a faulty hamas rocket.

Torco wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 7:02 pm regarding the hospital massacre, some evidence (not terribly conclusive, but still) is the number of sources claiming that zionist influencer hananya naftali tweeted about "israeli airstrike of a hamas base inside a hospital, killing many terrorists", then shortly deleted the tweet as israel started blaming a faulty hamas rocket.

IIRC the guy I linked before said Israel's own propaganda system was confused about that.

Torco wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 7:02 pm regarding the hospital massacre, some evidence (not terribly conclusive, but still) is the number of sources claiming that zionist influencer hananya naftali tweeted about "israeli airstrike of a hamas base inside a hospital, killing many terrorists", then shortly deleted the tweet as israel started blaming a faulty hamas rocket.

I’d say this is far less conclusive than the many different videos, from different angles, all clearly showing rockets being launched from Gaza in roughly the direction of the hospital, with one failing, followed seconds later by a huge explosion. Also, the IDF makes the good point that the effects of this explosion are far more similar to Gazan rockets (causing fires) than Israeli ones (causing craters). Anyone claiming instant knowledge of the cause is wrong to do so, no matter whether they’re Zionist or Gazan.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 6:51 pm PS. Although I'd imagine this would be true if you'd said Israeli funeral. I don't think Palestinians in the West would refuse to attend Jewish funerals generally.

And by "Israeli funeral", I mean a funeral in some prominent Zionist family. Based on my experience, I can't imagine Palestinians refusing to attend funerals of anti-Zionist Israelis either.

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 7:09 pm I’d say this is far less conclusive than the many different videos, from different angles, all clearly showing rockets being launched from Gaza in roughly the direction of the hospital, with one failing, followed seconds later by a huge explosion. Also, the IDF makes the good point that the effects of this explosion are far more similar to Gazan rockets (causing fires) than Israeli ones (causing craters). Anyone claiming instant knowledge of the cause is wrong to do so, no matter whether they’re Zionist or Gazan.

IIRC the guy thinks the footage from the impact site doesn't show enough destruction to kill 500 people. I don't know if he has enough experience to judge such things.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 7:44 pm

rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 6:51 pm PS. Although I'd imagine this would be true if you'd said Israeli funeral. I don't think Palestinians in the West would refuse to attend Jewish funerals generally.

And by "Israeli funeral", I mean a funeral in some prominent Zionist family. Based on my experience, I can't imagine Palestinians refusing to attend funerals of anti-Zionist Israelis either.

Given how the checkpoints were before, I can't imagine they'd be able now or in near future to attend any funerals outside of whichever part of Palestinian territories they're in.

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 9:26 pm

rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 7:44 pm

rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 6:51 pm PS. Although I'd imagine this would be true if you'd said Israeli funeral. I don't think Palestinians in the West would refuse to attend Jewish funerals generally.

And by "Israeli funeral", I mean a funeral in some prominent Zionist family. Based on my experience, I can't imagine Palestinians refusing to attend funerals of anti-Zionist Israelis either.

Given how the checkpoints were before, I can't imagine they'd be able now or in near future to attend any funerals outside of whichever part of Palestinian territories they're in.

I'm only talking about the West. In Palestine, I'd imagine they'd only want to socialize with prominently, vocally anti-Zionist Jews. IIRC, there are a handful of Jews who still identify as "Palestinian".

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 6:38 pmYes, I know. I think it’s a tragedy. However, am I not allowed to worry about my own safety?

Sorry, did someone here say otherwise?

bradrn wrote:(Also — and I note the non-Israeli media I’ve seen have avoided reporting this — the funeral was attended by many prominent Jewish rabbis from around Chicago. Clearly, the Jewish community is universally willing to condemn these attacks. Maybe I’m being unjustly suspicious, but if the situation were reversed, I’d find it hard to imagine many Palestinian leaders attending a Jewish funeral. I hope I never need to learn whether this is the case or not.)

I don't find it hard to imagine at all, at least not here in Chicago. And if they didn't attend, they'd at least manage somehow not to open fire on the funeral procession.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:48 am I don't find it hard to imagine at all, at least not here in Chicago. And if they didn't attend, they'd at least manage somehow not to open fire on the funeral procession.

My experiences in Alabama say that Muslims and Jews get along even better in rural America. A lot of Muslim immigrants are highly liberal. Even if you restrict your attention to arch-conservative Muslims, their main problem with Judaism is that Jews never enforce Deuteronomy.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:48 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 6:38 pmYes, I know. I think it’s a tragedy. However, am I not allowed to worry about my own safety?

Sorry, did someone here say otherwise?

Not in words, but you did immediately switched the topic to the safety of Palestinians. I’m certain you meant no harm from it — and of course it goes without saying that they deserve to feel 100% safe too, and any attacks on them are atrocious — but when everyone does this all the time, it does give me some idea about where people’s sympathies lie.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:48 am

bradrn wrote:(Also — and I note the non-Israeli media I’ve seen have avoided reporting this — the funeral was attended by many prominent Jewish rabbis from around Chicago. Clearly, the Jewish community is universally willing to condemn these attacks. Maybe I’m being unjustly suspicious, but if the situation were reversed, I’d find it hard to imagine many Palestinian leaders attending a Jewish funeral. I hope I never need to learn whether this is the case or not.)

I don't find it hard to imagine at all, at least not here in Chicago. And if they didn't attend, they'd at least manage somehow not to open fire on the funeral procession.

You live in Chicago, so I won’t argue. And I can’t deny that the Israeli settlers are, by and large, ideological extremists; they are not representative of Jews worldwide, in much the same way that Hamas’s terrorist wing is (I hope) unrepresentative of Palestinians.

That being said, perhaps I’ve been more strongly affected by the way events have played out in my own city of Sydney. When I get the time later today, maybe I’ll write a bit more about that.

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 6:47 pmThat being said, perhaps I’ve been more strongly affected by the way events have played out in my own city of Sydney. When I get the time later today, maybe I’ll write a bit more about that.

There were protesters explicitly shouting for slaughter outside the Opera House a few days ago, if I recall? Or was that just clickbait?

Man in Space wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:08 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 6:47 pmThat being said, perhaps I’ve been more strongly affected by the way events have played out in my own city of Sydney. When I get the time later today, maybe I’ll write a bit more about that.

There were protesters explicitly shouting for slaughter outside the Opera House a few days ago, if I recall? Or was that just clickbait?

No, it’s true. I’ll write more about the whole sick story later.