Zompist Bboard Again

So cometát celošië (‘the joining of intervals’), or just so cometát in a musical context, is a part of the wider Eretaldan musical pedagogical tradition. Similar to solfège and the Indian saregama syllables, it embodies a tradition of singing melodies with their respective note-names as ‘lyrics’. The Eretaldan-Kebreni syllables are adapted from the note names in a fully chromatic lattice. A system of sandhi creates regularly shaped pitch-pair ‘words’, used as indeclinable nouns, where your pronunciation of the note varies depending on what precedes and follows it. The practice can easily be extended: to sing a longer phrase in so cometát, combine the pairs according to the same underlying rules.

For example: na + a + a = na(ra) + (až)a = naraža.

The system is international, but heavily varies from region to region as there are various local schools of it (as well as the major distinction of Verdurian/Kebreni versions). There are as many as nine variants for some of the 144 intervals, which I have omitted from this diagram; we might assume it shows the most common variants taught to music students in Verduria city. The Kebreni version is significantly different from the Verdurian, but close enough that musicians from each background can understand each others’ versions, even if they might struggle to produce them.

I have made a recording of me singing some Verdurian aural training exercises which e this diagram as a guide. You can listen to it here. The formula goes: “The intervals like [interval name, e.g. comeve] are…” followed by the pitch-pair word of that interval starting on each of the twelve notes of the octave (separated by er ‘and’). I found it quite tricky to do, but certainly a useful exercise. Enjoy hearing sounds which young Verdurian music students are probably absolutely sick of.

I haven’t yet given zomp a chance to yea- or nay-say a few elements of this (NB things I’m unsure about often get sorted via email before they end up here): in particular the formats for the names of the intervals (indeclinable nouns like comene). As always, this is all very much still up for discussion: please let me know if you’re unsure on anything!

Through a thick veil of tooth pain... Just an update on where I am with all this:

• Diary of Kaidan Žambey
  • I want to retrofit a number of details: e.g. the way the barge operates, which necessitates a bit of a rewrite across the board, but I’m not planning on actually doing this at the moment. If you're following it, just bear in mind that newer entries may have blemishes in continuity which, when the whole journey is done, I will go through and iron out.
  • The arc of this story is plotted, now, for decades from this humble starting point. I am not sure what to do with this family saga: to do it justice, the writer in me wants novel(s). But the side of me that wants to get on with presenting Almean music wants to chuck a quick overview out and come back, if I can, one day, to flesh it out. It's a dilemma because I keep finding the gateway to how to present technical info, and inspiration for compositions, through the more intimate human details of the story. But this is enormously labour intensive and slow, and writing material set in Almea requires a lot of careful collaboration with zomp, which demands energy on both sides; I'm anxious about being a drain!
  • As a taster, and example of the scope of the work, posited future Žambeys of musical importance include Claimëra Poncörei Žambea, one of the first Eretaldan women to establish widespread fame as a classical composer, whose seminal symphonic work Elirán Řoelirulán (‘To a Life Unlived’) I see as becoming kind of anthemic of the entire 36th century, and its music is worming its way into my brain and making me frustrated to write it. Inspired by the trauma of experiencing a miscarriage close to full term, its main theme grew out of Caďin pagan funerary rites, mixed with martial, pastoral and other religious elements, and containing a theme from a traditionally female weaving song; I see it as an important moment in feminism in Eretald (though Almean feminisms are certainly different to Earth feminisms) as well as a vessel for societal expression of grief in wartime. But it’s, like, a whole symphony (or Eretaldan analogue). I've never achieved that before even with Earthly musical parameters, and how can I presume to write such a work? (Including a seminal feminist work — writing as a cis man.) It’s a dilemma with a lot of this project; I often eventually fall back to the example of Tak, a board game created as part of fandom for Rothfuss’ The Kingkiller Chronicle, which now has a real following and international championship body. Given enough time and devotion, imagined realities can bring artworks of real value into our main reality; but there’s no hope in rushing it.
• Eretaldan Nomenclature
  Between zomp and I a lot of work has now been done to name notes, scales and intervals (and, as collateral, rivers!) in Verdurian, Caďinor and Kebreni, some of which zomp is adding to lexicons. Outstanding is concordance on a sort of artistic system of naming intervals (I have a technical system, but zomp points out that it’s likely to coexist with a more informally derived system where intervals are known by more allegorical names than ‘the interval like A-B’). I seem to have a block around this... I've tried a lot of options and nothing feels right yet. Honestly, I'm feel starting to wonder if an aleatoric approach might work best, where terms are selected almost at random, and explanations for their usage retrofitted to them. I will hopefull crack this soon, but I can’t help but feel that it would probably grow naturally if I let it, and be the more naturalistic for that. It occurs to me to ask the ‘room’: does anyone have any nice ideas about how Verdurian might refer to musical intervals?
• Eretaldan music theory
  • I'm inching towards an understanding of the development of temperament systems in Eretald, but again, this is slow, technical work, involving all of Almean social, cultural and technological history - and rather a lot of maths, which I struggle with. The potential rewards are also kind of slim here: attempting to perform music with alternative temperament systems makes, like, a colour difference to our listening experience of music. It’s significant, but it’s ... largely aesthetic. I’m not sure it’s the best use of my time.
  • Barakhinei music
    The Barakhinei have a unique tradition of music theory and practice, influenced by the decaphonic traditions of the south of Ereláe, and ‒ more striking than alternative temperament systems ‒ have an entirely separate tuning system from the Plain. I did a lot of work on this in 2021, and it’s still largely sitting in notebooks. I need to embark on getting that out a bit: but here the Žambey family narrative comes into inportance again. More spoilers: Kaidan Žambey meets a Barakhinei-speaking Lácaturian singer named Fandeli in Pérecaln, who follows him back to Žésifo and eventually marries his brother Kutro. Kutro and Fandeli’s son Poncör is responsible for bringing the Barakhinei tradition to wider scholarly and musical attention, and I already began writing his book about it, so it kind of makes sense to continue that through developing the Žambey lens.
  • Other Eretaldan composers and wider musical history
    One thing I want to do is throw about a thousand names out of the relevant languages and just have a nice long list of composers to invent slowly in a spreadsheet.
  • Kebreni music
    I wrote a Kebreni piece nearly three years ago (‘Pabandysur’); a reason for introducing the Kebreni singer in the last diary entry was to find a way to get this piece out via the narrative. I’ve cracked the route to that ‒ I just need to do it. That’s kind of where I’m headed with that narrative prior to Kaidan’s journey to Pérecaln.
  • Ismaîn music
    I have actually progressed with this maybe the furthest of any tradition. I have one 12-minute piece (a bit of a draft, but still) and I wrote an overview of Ismaîn music which got quite lengthy. It doesn’t really come into the Žambey family story (and neither do I want to try to cram everything I've thought about into the story of one family ‒ I see this as a flaw of works like e.g. The Clan of the Cave Bear, where Ayla seems to discover everything in human history). Zomp suggested I present it through videos ‒ maybe this is the way. I'm not sure yet. Another big work is in my head here for the future ‒ I know its main theme, and several other sections ‒ what I’ve described as “song cycle (Laz̧ene Mez̧e) Mole Molenis (lit. ‘(a bottle of cool) soft lightening’), a 35-minute quasi-symphonic experience which mixed surrealist poetry with a wide range of musical textures derived from the modes of the Zŕşe scale”.
  • All the rest
    There’s loads more. I’ve got bits of Skourene and Xurnese music, for a start, and a write-up of ancient Arauni music, and that Munkhâshi piece is another ‘beginning of something’. I would like to make a ‘Rough Guide to the Music of Ereláe’ CD with endnotes... and then there’s the rest of the planet.

Oh yeah, it's worth mentioning, too, that I'm trying to learn Verdurian. I'm making an Anki deck of the lexicon ‒ just took the approach, start at A, and I add any new roots and derivatives I find as I come across them sequentially. When this deck is done, I could happily share it.

It’s a lot of material to handle and I do admit it’s quite hard to work out how to do so while fitting in the rest of my life! But I love this project and I want to keep working. I just ‒ apologise, I guess, to all and sundry, if it comes out in quite a lumpy fashion.

I’m always open to ideas!!! Please shout if there’s anything you think I should or shouldn’t focus on, or anything new you’d like me to think about.

I like reading novels, so that's what I would like to see Maybe an online novel with links to the musical pieces that are mentioned? And I guess that already looks like a project that can take a lifetime...

hwhatting wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 5:04 am I like reading novels, so that's what I would like to see Maybe an online novel with links to the musical pieces that are mentioned? And I guess that already looks like a project that can take a lifetime...

That's a really cool idea... thank you!

I have no useful suggestions, unfortunately; I just wanted to say that I am flabbergasted by the scope of your work, and want to wish you the best of luck with future developments!

Glenn wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 5:51 am I have no useful suggestions, unfortunately; I just wanted to say that I am flabbergasted by the scope of your work, and want to wish you the best of luck with future developments!

That really means an awful lot to me and I thank you so much for your well-wishes.

sasasha wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:46 amfuture Žambeys of musical importance include Claimëra Poncörei Žambey, one of the first Eretaldan women to establish widespread fame as a classical composer

Lots of exciting stuff here, but I have to get to bed. However, I wanted to point out that her surname would be Žambeya. As in Russian, surnames are gendered.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 6:50 am

sasasha wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:46 amfuture Žambeys of musical importance include Claimëra Poncörei Žambey, one of the first Eretaldan women to establish widespread fame as a classical composer

Lots of exciting stuff here, but I have to get to bed. However, I wanted to point out that her surname would be Žambeya. As in Russian, surnames are gendered.

Oh, of course! Dëkuy!!

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 6:50 am

sasasha wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:46 amfuture Žambeys of musical importance include Claimëra Poncörei Žambey, one of the first Eretaldan women to establish widespread fame as a classical composer

Lots of exciting stuff here, but I have to get to bed. However, I wanted to point out that her surname would be Žambeya. As in Russian, surnames are gendered.

I think you've stated it would be Žambea, actually (on the Verdurian names page, -ey names are feminized in -ea) ‒ or maybe that’s a typo? In either case, I totally forgot this detail!

sasasha wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:32 am I think you've stated it would be Žambea, actually (on the Verdurian names page, -ey names are feminized in -ea) ‒ or maybe that’s a typo? In either case, I totally forgot this detail!

Turns out I've used both, so both spellings are canonical.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:24 pm

sasasha wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:32 am I think you've stated it would be Žambea, actually (on the Verdurian names page, -ey names are feminized in -ea) ‒ or maybe that’s a typo? In either case, I totally forgot this detail!

Turns out I've used both, so both spellings are canonical.

Oh, fun! Someone flip a coin

A bit more reply:

All this is extremely ambitious, but I look forward to seeing and hearing it!

Don't worry about asking questions... a narrative is a great way to find gaps in conworlding. Maybe I need an expanded "Traveler's Guide" sort of thing to work out more details of everyday life.

On female characters, my position would be that males have got to try more. If our work doesn't get banned in Florida, we're doing something wrong. It helps to read female novelists and historians; also if possible to have some women read your text! I was fortunate enough to have three for Babblers.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:26 pm A bit more reply:

All this is extremely ambitious, but I look forward to seeing and hearing it!

Don't worry about asking questions... a narrative is a great way to find gaps in conworlding. Maybe I need an expanded "Traveler's Guide" sort of thing to work out more details of everyday life.

On female characters, my position would be that males have got to try more. If our work doesn't get banned in Florida, we're doing something wrong. It helps to read female novelists and historians; also if possible to have some women read your text! I was fortunate enough to have three for Babblers.

Great encouragement and good advice! I really, really like the idea of an expanded “Traveler’s Guide” sort of thing!! (You also mentioned an old Gazeteer, with place names, etymologies and a few details about all the places on the ‘huge’ map. I would love to see that!)

Perhaps a draft of the first bits of an inworld text ‒ though I’m not sure what, by whom or when written. I haven’t thought through the philosophy much at all, so perhaps this is just writing practice, which has, at least, been useful to hone my grasp of the semantic field in Verdurian.

Please do question/correct/guide!


Kio e soa alaďea?

Kio e soa alaďea? Ktëi peržane?

Soa curaya ya miže: soa alaďea e yari imčelula im diďan, kiei soî intenî eu ďinî: so lir, so caturo, er so hecu.

Ac ‒ kio e eto? Er kiel? Er prokio dénuo cam cometam pro faitan ci-meplavula merra kiom nomam alaďea?

Yatá tellnam curec yä dobrä.


Lir

Debutmam ab so lir. Aširei: soa celsfahe ďunië ucörtië. So an cuesan cues; soa tele dan advečel.

Esce eto řo e so lir? So cues dénuo liale, so advečel tombe. Ozë, im ši-celsfahen, im ši-řonán, elire lir.

So ül Einatu riprirodom ya miže: Orelî taë eu clošî and itianán, er soî ložî eu glonî caë.

Esce ozë soî ložî fueu so pere lir?

Tot řo ašum. Eluá soî dascî iskriče, zam geriše pere ftoren er zam imžele cum vuán. Tana, soa iskriča dénuo liale, soa imželea tombe.

Ac ašum dy řo eu adecan ci-kričî so lir. Řo, ir totán, e soî appuyecî iscreniî dy prene vuá, soî iscreniî dy tene vuá, er soî iscreniî dy adeseu vuá. Suco nešélië i lir e soî iscreniî.

Oiro, esce so ďac tene so lir? So oraž, soî menî?

Tot řo ředaom. Řo e iscreniy im ce-merren, acota totán, eššane, aďei. Ca zam bruhceleu pro lirán and aďán… Ac ke epcele čascurec tot oir?

Good job! Here are some corrections/suggestions.

Kio e soa alaďea? Ktëi peržane?
- I forget this all the time too, but žanen is irregular, so it should be perže.

Soa curaya ya miže: soa alaďea e yari imčelula im diďan, kiei soî intenî eu ďinî: so lir, so caturo, er so hecu.

Ac ‒ kio e eto? Er kiel? Er prokio dénuo cam cometam pro faitan ci-meplavula merra kiom nomam alaďea?
- You could just say Kio e ca?
- no need for dénuo
- pro fassec

Yatá tellnam curec yä dobrä.

Debutmam ab so lir. Aširei: soa celsfahe ďunië ucörtië. So an cuesan cues; soa tele dan advečel.
- ab soán lirán
- I’d take the 2nd sentence as having a normal accusative: aširei soa celsfaha…
- An cuese cues; tele de advečel.

Esce eto řo e so lir? So cues dénuo liale, so advečel tombe. Ozë, im ši-celsfahen, im ši-řonán, elire lir.
- dénuo is OK but can be omitted, you’re saying “is rising”

So ül Einatu riprirodom ya miže: Orelî taë eu clošî and itianán, er soî ložî eu glonî caë.
- I wouldn’t divide ül ripridodom, but maybe you’re trying for a poetic effect?

Esce ozë soî ložî fueu so pere lir?

Tot řo ašum. Eluá soî dascî iskriče, zam geriše pere ftoren er zam imžele cum vuán. Tana, soa iskriča dénuo liale, soa imželea tombe.
- iskriču, gerišü, imželu

Ac ašum dy řo eu adecan ci-kričî so lir. Řo, ir totán, e soî appuyecî iscreniî dy prene vuá, soî iscreniî dy tene vuá, er soî iscreniî dy adeseu vuá. Suco nešélië i lir e soî iscreniî.
- kaë prenu vuá… kaë tenu… kaë adesu
- as a reminder, suco nešélië is a modern term… if you want a 3400s term, maybe just uem

Oiro, esce so ďac tene so lir? So oraž, soî menî?

Tot řo ředaom. Řo e iscreniy im ce-merren, acota totán, eššane, aďei. Ca zam bruhceleu pro lirán and aďán… Ac ke epcele čascurec tot oir?
- ředom

Thank you so much! I overlooked a lot! Often when I’ve edited stuff, I’ve forgotten that I’ve changed the number of the subject, or somesuch...

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 11:14 pm Good job! Here are some corrections/suggestions.

Kio e soa alaďea? Ktëi peržane?
- I forget this all the time too, but žanen is irregular, so it should be perže.

Oh yes. Of course.

Ac ‒ kio e eto? Er kiel? Er prokio dénuo cam cometam pro faitan ci-meplavula merra kiom nomam alaďea?
- You could just say Kio e ca?
- no need for dénuo
- pro fassec

I can say Kio e ca? Really? (I suppose stuff on either side of esan doesn’t have to agree in number... Is this why?)

Esce eto řo e so lir? So cues dénuo liale, so advečel tombe. Ozë, im ši-celsfahen, im ši-řonán, elire lir.
- dénuo is OK but can be omitted, you’re saying “is rising”

I think I’m more literally trying to say, ‘one always/usually rises, the other always/usually falls’, emphasising the writer’s feeling that it’s a natural law, so dénuo felt useful here... no? (Similarly, though maybe less strongly, in the above example.)

So ül Einatu riprirodom ya miže: Orelî taë eu clošî and itianán, er soî ložî eu glonî caë.
- I wouldn’t divide ül ripridodom, but maybe you’re trying for a poetic effect?

Not so much poetic. I wasn’t sure about this either ‒ I thought I was trying to follow the Reference Grammar in putting the adjective first, then riprirodom after the name as a title, of sorts:


However, I don’t think I understand. (Did you indeed mean to write “The one exception is that a name can be followed by a name or title”?). Anyway, should it just be so ül riprirodom Einatu?

Ac ašum dy řo eu adecan ci-kričî so lir. Řo, ir totán, e soî appuyecî iscreniî dy prene vuá, soî iscreniî dy tene vuá, er soî iscreniî dy adeseu vuá. Suco nešélië i lir e soî iscreniî.
- kaë prenu vuá… kaë tenu… kaë adesu

Oops, of course. Another area of eager edit casualties, I think, as I had a different phrase structure at first.

- as a reminder, suco nešélië is a modern term… if you want a 3400s term, maybe just uem

Ah, I see. (This is why I asked if the 3480 dictionary was still available. Though the Modern Verdurian Terms page helps.) Still, the VD says “suco nešélië DNA; earlier, the substance underlying heredity” so I was meaning the earlier usage, but I’m guessing I guessed that as being around earlier than it is. Uem works, too.

Though out of interest, when do you see the earlier usage of the term coming in?

Thanks again, will post an updated version later.

sasasha wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 2:37 am I can say Kio e ca? Really? (I suppose stuff on either side of esan doesn’t have to agree in number... Is this why?)

The verb can't agree with both. It's always correct to agree with the subject, in this case kio. I'd accept Kio eu ca, as you can always reverse the arguments of esan.

I think I’m more literally trying to say, ‘one always/usually rises, the other always/usually falls’, emphasising the writer’s feeling that it’s a natural law, so dénuo felt useful here... no? (Similarly, though maybe less strongly, in the above example.)

Oops, this is my mistake, you're quite right. I was thinking about siča.

Not so much poetic. I wasn’t sure about this either ‒ I thought I was trying to follow the Reference Grammar in putting the adjective first, then riprirodom after the name as a title, of sorts:

It looked to me like you're mixing up an ordinary NP "so ül riprirodom" plus a name, so it looked odd.

I also don't see it as either a title or a compound... I'd write either so ül riprirodom Einatu or Einatu, so ül riprirodom. The intent of the rule in the RG is that you don't write e.g. "so dalu riprorodom" for "the philosopher king".

Ah, I see. (This is why I asked if the 3480 dictionary was still available. Though the Modern Verdurian Terms page helps.) Still, the VD says “suco nešélië DNA; earlier, the substance underlying heredity” so I was meaning the earlier usage, but I’m guessing I guessed that as being around earlier than it is. Uem works, too.

Though out of interest, when do you see the earlier usage of the term coming in?

This is better explained in Almea: Industrial Age. It's pretty parallel to "deoxyribonucleic acid"; it's late 3500s. (For comparison, DNA was first isolated, though its structure and function weren't understood, in 1861, by Friedrich Miescher. He called it "nuclein", which would have been a better name!)

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 4:13 am

sasasha wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 2:37 am I can say Kio e ca? Really? (I suppose stuff on either side of esan doesn’t have to agree in number... Is this why?)

The verb can't agree with both. It's always correct to agree with the subject, in this case kio. I'd accept Kio eu ca, as you can always reverse the arguments of esan.

Thank you - this makes sense and I think I just learned something rather elementary!

I think I’m more literally trying to say, ‘one always/usually rises, the other always/usually falls’, emphasising the writer’s feeling that it’s a natural law, so dénuo felt useful here... no? (Similarly, though maybe less strongly, in the above example.)

Oops, this is my mistake, you're quite right. I was thinking about siča.

Ahh ok! That clears that up.

Not so much poetic. I wasn’t sure about this either ‒ I thought I was trying to follow the Reference Grammar in putting the adjective first, then riprirodom after the name as a title, of sorts:

It looked to me like you're mixing up an ordinary NP "so ül riprirodom" plus a name, so it looked odd.

I also don't see it as either a title or a compound... I'd write either so ül riprirodom Einatu or Einatu, so ül riprirodom. The intent of the rule in the RG is that you don't write e.g. "so dalu riprorodom" for "the philosopher king".

I see, I was overthinking this!

Ah, I see. (This is why I asked if the 3480 dictionary was still available. Though the Modern Verdurian Terms page helps.) Still, the VD says “suco nešélië DNA; earlier, the substance underlying heredity” so I was meaning the earlier usage, but I’m guessing I guessed that as being around earlier than it is. Uem works, too.

Though out of interest, when do you see the earlier usage of the term coming in?

This is better explained in Almea: Industrial Age. It's pretty parallel to "deoxyribonucleic acid"; it's late 3500s. (For comparison, DNA was first isolated, though its structure and function weren't understood, in 1861, by Friedrich Miescher. He called it "nuclein", which would have been a better name!)

Brilliant, thanks. I think I'm going to switch to a nominal use of cöne ('adj - core, basic, fundamental [late Caď. CUEDNES]'), anyway, if that's permitted. ("Cöne lirei e iscreniy.")

sasasha wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 2:26 pm Thank you - this makes sense and I think I just learned something rather elementary!

Don't worry about getting things wrong, it's just part of language learning.

My parents both liked languages. My father picked up grammar faster, but he was terrified of getting things wrong. My mother just used what she could to communicate. Once in Italy she amazed our linguistics prof host by having a conversation with his mother, who spoke no English, while my mother at that time knew only a few words of Italian. She had the right attitude!

I think I'm going to switch to a nominal use of cöne ('adj - core, basic, fundamental [late Caď. CUEDNES]'), anyway, if that's permitted. ("Cöne lirei e iscreniy.")

That's fine.

I've added several musical terms to the Verdurian and Kebreni dictionaries. Robin has discussed the note names above. Other new words:

VERDURIAN

addobre – (music) fine tuning
addobrec – (music) fine-tune, temper
ban – (music) modal group (Eärdur, Svetla, or Serea) ['way']
celoš – (music) interval ['between-thing']
čima – (music) note, whole tone ['step']
čimáš – (music) an interval larger than a whole tone
čimora – (music) scale, mode
deistima – (music) harmony [Caď. 'several notes']
desčima – (music) chord [Verd. descendant of above]
metuy – (music) semitone ['half']
roheica – (music) temperament
royi – (music) key, tuning ['twist']
royir – (music) tune an instrument
šeli – (music) semitone ['grace']
žes – octave, 12-note interval ['home']

KEBRENI

syḣku – (music) tune an instrument [calque on royir]
dehcima – musical chord
zeniḣ - carpenter’s mark; (music) note ['little place']
zenihi – scale, mode [collective of above]
nivi – interval [calque on Ver.]
keda – octave ['house', clumsy calque on Ver.]
ruḣt – modal group (ban) ['delta', i.e. major river]

Fun fact: nivi is also the foodies' word for 'terroir.'

I was tempted to translate 'note' as hui 'finger', the basis of the traditional Kebreni measuring system; I thought it would be amusing to measure intervals in the equivalents of inches. But the usual multipliers don't line up with music very well.