Wikipedia has this, though I don't know how good it is. At least, it gives all the forms and paradigms both in Arabic script and in romanization.Raholeun wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 7:57 am Waking this thread, because I am looking for a comprehensive grammar of the Arabic language, preferably with references to its different variants. Those that I found, expect me to master the writing system first, but I just want to check some paradigms. Do you have tips?
That is indeed what I am looking for, and then some. The linked article isn't half bad, and I am assuming it is pretty much correct, but it is limited in scope (as a Wiki entry should be).WeepingElf wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:50 am Wikipedia has this, though I don't know how good it is. At least, it gives all the forms and paradigms both in Arabic script and in romanization.
Unfortunately, both of these do in fact presuppose that one learns the writing system. Which I think is odd. Why is it perfectly natural to write, let's say a grammar of Chinese, Acehnese or Mongolian, without demanding knowledge of Hanzi, Jawi or the Mongolian script, but not so for Arabic? Thusfar, I have found The Phonology and Morphology of Arabic by Watson which comes close, but is proverbially not a cigar.Glass Half Baked wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 8:57 pm This pdf is pretty good, because it's succinct and hits all the points you want for comparative grammar. You don't really need Arabic script knowledge, because they give you all the vowel marks.
This one is a little longer and more rambling, but it's better for the details. Again, vowel marks are included so no real script knowledge required beyond the obvious.
It’s still an annoyance if one just wants to look up some forms.
What a pleasant surprise to see this! I actually helped Gabriel edit an earlier version of this article (in my capacity as editor of The Descriptivist), and I’m glad to see how well it’s turned out.WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 11:47 am This month's Fiat Lingua post looks very useful for those who wish to create African-style tone systems, or systems in which something else behaves in a similar way. I'll use it for the vowel system of Old Albic.
Thank you, sounds really interesting! And it's great that they have it as both pdf and epub. (On pcs I probably prefer pdfs, but they're a pain to read on smaller devices.)WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 12:25 pm A very valuable resource for those exploring the linguistic prehistory of Europe: Sub-Indo-European Europe - downloadable for free!
I'm glad it's been useful! I have a ton of resources I've collected in the past couple years regarding grammatical tone; let me know if there's anything you're searching for and I probably can find something on it.WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 11:47 am This month's Fiat Lingua post looks very useful for those who wish to create African-style tone systems, or systems in which something else behaves in a similar way. I'll use it for the vowel system of Old Albic.
Welcome Gabriel! Glad to see you here.gabrielswai wrote: ↑Fri Nov 15, 2024 11:57 amI'm glad it's been useful! I have a ton of resources I've collected in the past couple years regarding grammatical tone; let me know if there's anything you're searching for and I probably can find something on it.WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 11:47 am This month's Fiat Lingua post looks very useful for those who wish to create African-style tone systems, or systems in which something else behaves in a similar way. I'll use it for the vowel system of Old Albic.
What resources do you have regarding tonogenesis on the basis of vowel height and quality, or on the basis of something else than surrounding consonantal phonation? Bonus points if it's tonogenesis in a non tonal language.gabrielswai wrote: ↑Fri Nov 15, 2024 11:57 amI'm glad it's been useful! I have a ton of resources I've collected in the past couple years regarding grammatical tone; let me know if there's anything you're searching for and I probably can find something on it.WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 11:47 am This month's Fiat Lingua post looks very useful for those who wish to create African-style tone systems, or systems in which something else behaves in a similar way. I'll use it for the vowel system of Old Albic.
From what I can find:
This is from "Tone sandhi: patterns across Chinese dialects" by Matthew Y. Chen.Tone splits along other phonological parameters have been reported in the literature: breathy voice, prenasalization, fortis vs. lenis consonants, vowel height, length and tensity, etc. (Hombert 1987, Endô 1994). Surprisingly, despite the well-known intrinsic pitch variations associated with vowel height, tone split along the high/low vowel distinction is so rare that Hombert et al. (1979:52) state flatly: “It would seem that the interaction between tones and vowel height works in only one direction: tone can affect vowel height, but not vice-versa.”
Code: Select all
Low High (tone)
ei i
ou u
øy y
ɔi øy
ai ei
au ouBased specifically on vowel height and quality, no example immediately comes to mind. However, I do know off the top of my head that Cheyenne developed tones based on the length of its vowels while being previously toneless. I briefly discuss this on page 13 of my Fiat Lingua article, where I cite this article detailing Cheyenne tonogenesis: https://doi.org/10.1086/465218. Essentially, high tones were gained on long vowels.Zju wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2024 11:53 amWhat resources do you have regarding tonogenesis on the basis of vowel height and quality, or on the basis of something else than surrounding consonantal phonation? Bonus points if it's tonogenesis in a non tonal language.gabrielswai wrote: ↑Fri Nov 15, 2024 11:57 amI'm glad it's been useful! I have a ton of resources I've collected in the past couple years regarding grammatical tone; let me know if there's anything you're searching for and I probably can find something on it.WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 11:47 am This month's Fiat Lingua post looks very useful for those who wish to create African-style tone systems, or systems in which something else behaves in a similar way. I'll use it for the vowel system of Old Albic.
I learned about the Cheyenne tonogenesis of long vowels -> high tone on this board many years ago from Jeff Burke (a former member), and tried to apply it to my own (forever embryonic) conlang Chusole. The eventual concept was that the ancestral language was toneless, but had a vowel length contrast and initial stress (characteristics still reflected in another branch of the language family). In Chusole, the vowel length contrast was lost, but formerly long vowels acquired high tone; in words with no long vowels, the first syllable of the word had high tone and the remaining syllables low tone, with pitch tending to drop over the course of the word. I'm not sure how realistic this is, and in the end, I felt as though I had ended up with something not that different from a stress system.gabrielswai wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 12:59 pmBased specifically on vowel height and quality, no example immediately comes to mind. However, I do know off the top of my head that Cheyenne developed tones based on the length of its vowels while being previously toneless. I briefly discuss this on page 13 of my Fiat Lingua article, where I cite this article detailing Cheyenne tonogenesis: https://doi.org/10.1086/465218. Essentially, high tones were gained on long vowels.