Zompist Bboard Again

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masako wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 12:21 pm I don't think the US Navy ranks need to be mirrored exactly, but given the nature of space flight (as we currently understand it) and the need to some type of structure on a vessel (for emergencies, internal conflict, as well as outside threats/risks), a rank structure of a kind seems absolutely necessary.

I don't think so. There's another model: Antarctic bases.

Here's an amusing post about warning signs at the South Pole base. The whole blog is worth a look, too— lots of details about life at the South Pole.

Everything is regulated, because it's a dangerous, unforgiving environment. But it's not a military base, just a bunch of scientists.

Also, even better: In practice, they have to deal with all the dimensional abominations that occasionally fall out of the portal to the center of the hollow earth, so they do have some record of dealing with outside-context problems, albeit with various results.

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masako wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 12:04 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 2:11 pm But it's not a military base, just a bunch of scientists.

Yes, a bunch of scientists, most of whom are government contractors working on contracts managed by the United States Antarctic Program, which, as a part of the National Science Foundation most definitely has a hierarchy in place. That hierarchy is made-up of government officials, which by definition have military rank equivalencies.

There's a hierarchy at the local hot dog stand too, and probably a nasty and entrenched one at the nearest liberal arts faculty. I'm not sure why the government has military rank equivalencies for Social Security paper-pushers, but it doesn't mean every government agency is run like the military. (Which is not a dig at the military— my understanding is that the US military is pretty well run. Way better than those government employees the House GOP (rimshot).)

It's ironic that so much SF is written by libertarians who think space will be like the Wild West, only with more guns. Space is absurdly dangerous and a ship or a lunar or Mars colony is going to be tightly regulated, with no guns at all. But I also think the likely organizational model is more like an Antarctic base or an oil rig than like a battleship.

(Unless we end up fighting wars up there, which strikes me as a terrible idea. We don't have Star Trek shields.)

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masako wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 6:03 am
Some of my own commentary has touched on the idea that in Starfleet, your rank is determined by your position, rather than the inverse. The latter being how almost all modern militaries function. This easily explains why many of the characters never "get promoted" and seem to be running-in-place compared to typical military career progression. It also explains why there are inconsistencies across various series, as well as the laughably meteoric rise of a convicted war criminal to the position of Captain on Discovery.

They made a big deal of Sisko's promotion from Commander to Captain, though, without changing his functional position as the commanding officer of Deep Space 9.

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Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 6:30 am They made a big deal of Sisko's promotion from Commander to Captain, though, without changing his functional position as the commanding officer of Deep Space 9.

This is not actually a contradiction. He held the rank of Commander in his role as the CO of Deep Space Nine, as had been previously established (e.g. Commander Hutchinson in TNG's Starship Mine) and received a promotion to captain when the Defiant became part of his remit.

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Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:46 am I'm outlining some novelas in a sci-fi setting. The idea is I want something that will scratch the Star Trek itch without being fanfiction (i.e. something I can legally sell). What, in your opinions, defines Star Trek and its vibe? Does it have any features that make you think "Oh, this is like Star Trek" in other media?

Closest I've read recently is The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet by Becky Chambers. It's more like Firefly though.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:46 am I'm outlining some novelas in a sci-fi setting. The idea is I want something that will scratch the Star Trek itch without being fanfiction (i.e. something I can legally sell). What, in your opinions, defines Star Trek and its vibe? Does it have any features that make you think "Oh, this is like Star Trek" in other media?

There's also The Orville. I did enjoy it, but it loses a lot in comparison to early Trek. The Orville awkwardly celebrates the current system instead of pushing the envelope.

Thanks for the recommendations. I also found the Atalan series, a self-published 9-book series that's comedy sci-fi, like what I was writing. Angry Planet felt a little too YA for my taste, but I do see the appeal. the Orville is very close to just being fan fiction. It definitely gets how to write an episode of Star Trek, but it doesn't have much else going for it. Red Letter Media said it's like looking at a picture of your favorite food, which is a pretty good description.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 6:10 pm I also found the Atalan series, a self-published 9-book series that's comedy sci-fi, like what I was writing.

I'll check it out.

I liked your series. I rated all the installments 5 stars, but some didn't show up, I think.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 6:10 pm Red Letter Media said it's like looking at a picture of your favorite food, which is a pretty good description.

I have to agree.

That's very kind of you!

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:46 am I'm outlining some novelas in a sci-fi setting. The idea is I want something that will scratch the Star Trek itch without being fanfiction (i.e. something I can legally sell). What, in your opinions, defines Star Trek and its vibe? Does it have any features that make you think "Oh, this is like Star Trek" in other media?

More distant relations:

The Bobiverse series by Dennis E. Taylor is good at space exploration. There is exploration of alien societies, but the author seems like a libertarian, so it can only be so deep. It's funny in a nerdy way.

The Expeditionary Force series by Craig Alanson is a good space military series. Humanity is the weakest faction in the galaxy. There are superpowered AIs and weird tricks to hijack alien ships.

Thank you, I'll check these out!

This might be interesting to some people here: a "fan non-fiction", currently being released piece by piece, about the founding of the Federation: https://nascentnovice.com/sanfrancisco-2161/

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jun 24, 2025 5:26 pm This might be interesting to some people here: a "fan non-fiction", currently being released piece by piece, about the founding of the Federation: https://nascentnovice.com/sanfrancisco-2161/

I have downloaded the first volume of this for reading later, but right now I am in the middle of reading the book version of another Star Trek fan non-fiction project, We Have Engaged the Borg: The Oral History of the Battle of Wolf 359. So far, I am quite impressed with the authors' work.

(I learned about both of these works, as you may have as well, from this blog post by Nathan Goldwag.)

Glenn wrote: ↑Wed Jun 25, 2025 7:55 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jun 24, 2025 5:26 pm This might be interesting to some people here: a "fan non-fiction", currently being released piece by piece, about the founding of the Federation: https://nascentnovice.com/sanfrancisco-2161/

I have downloaded the first volume of this for reading later, but right now I am in the middle of reading the book version of another Star Trek fan non-fiction project, We Have Engaged the Borg: The Oral History of the Battle of Wolf 359. So far, I am quite impressed with the authors' work.

(I learned about both of these works, as you may have as well, from this blog post by Nathan Goldwag.)

I realized tonight, to my embarrassment, that in my haste to write the post above, I failed to check Raphael's link, and thus confused the piece of Star Trek fan non-fiction that he was linking to, a history of the founding of the Federation entitled San Francisco, 2061, with this one, a history of the conflict between the Federation and the Klingons entitled The Edge of Midnight, which I am reading now.

It is interesting to take a look at all three pieces of Star Trek "history", each one the result of quite a bit of work by its creators. San Francisco, 2061 and The Edge of Midnight are more standard narrative histories, while We Have Engaged the Borg is written as an oral history, framed as a collection of interviews with various characters about the events in question, an approach that I enjoyed quite a bit.