Zompist Bboard Again

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:16 pm I did read one piece of fiction which used the terminology of nobility to express command hierarchy; I think there was a Lord of Astrogation, to give an example.

This is very Dune or Star Wars of them, isn't it? Though, I guess SW was kind of a mix, really.

I don't think the US Navy ranks need to be mirrored exactly, but given the nature of space flight (as we currently understand it) and the need to some type of structure on a vessel (for emergencies, internal conflict, as well as outside threats/risks), a rank structure of a kind seems absolutely necessary.

masako wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 12:21 pm I don't think the US Navy ranks need to be mirrored exactly, but given the nature of space flight (as we currently understand it) and the need to some type of structure on a vessel (for emergencies, internal conflict, as well as outside threats/risks), a rank structure of a kind seems absolutely necessary.

I don't think so. There's another model: Antarctic bases.

Here's an amusing post about warning signs at the South Pole base. The whole blog is worth a look, too— lots of details about life at the South Pole.

Everything is regulated, because it's a dangerous, unforgiving environment. But it's not a military base, just a bunch of scientists.

Also, even better: In practice, they have to deal with all the dimensional abominations that occasionally fall out of the portal to the center of the hollow earth, so they do have some record of dealing with outside-context problems, albeit with various results.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 2:11 pm But it's not a military base, just a bunch of scientists.

Yes, a bunch of scientists, most of whom are government contractors working on contracts managed by the United States Antarctic Program, which, as a part of the National Science Foundation most definitely has a hierarchy in place. That hierarchy is made-up of government officials, which by definition have military rank equivalencies.

masako wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 12:04 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 2:11 pm But it's not a military base, just a bunch of scientists.

Yes, a bunch of scientists, most of whom are government contractors working on contracts managed by the United States Antarctic Program, which, as a part of the National Science Foundation most definitely has a hierarchy in place. That hierarchy is made-up of government officials, which by definition have military rank equivalencies.

There's a hierarchy at the local hot dog stand too, and probably a nasty and entrenched one at the nearest liberal arts faculty. I'm not sure why the government has military rank equivalencies for Social Security paper-pushers, but it doesn't mean every government agency is run like the military. (Which is not a dig at the military— my understanding is that the US military is pretty well run. Way better than those government employees the House GOP (rimshot).)

It's ironic that so much SF is written by libertarians who think space will be like the Wild West, only with more guns. Space is absurdly dangerous and a ship or a lunar or Mars colony is going to be tightly regulated, with no guns at all. But I also think the likely organizational model is more like an Antarctic base or an oil rig than like a battleship.

(Unless we end up fighting wars up there, which strikes me as a terrible idea. We don't have Star Trek shields.)

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:55 pm But I also think the likely organizational model is more like an Antarctic base or an oil rig than like a battleship.

From what I've read and heard, that's what Roddenberry's goal was when TOS was being pitched. If you watch the original pilot episode, the Captain has a slightly thicker sleeve band than a few of the others, and then others have no sleeve insignia. So, the "captain" was a position rather than a rank, and then there was a "science officer", "engineer", "communications officer", etc. which I think fits with what you describe. My head-canon is that Gene was slowly overridden by studio execs who were being influenced by the increasingly newsworthy Vietnam War, and that militaristic patriotism that tends to bleed into pop culture during international conflict.

Some of my own commentary has touched on the idea that in Starfleet, your rank is determined by your position, rather than the inverse. The latter being how almost all modern militaries function. This easily explains why many of the characters never "get promoted" and seem to be running-in-place compared to typical military career progression. It also explains why there are inconsistencies across various series, as well as the laughably meteoric rise of a convicted war criminal to the position of Captain on Discovery.

masako wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 6:03 am
Some of my own commentary has touched on the idea that in Starfleet, your rank is determined by your position, rather than the inverse. The latter being how almost all modern militaries function. This easily explains why many of the characters never "get promoted" and seem to be running-in-place compared to typical military career progression. It also explains why there are inconsistencies across various series, as well as the laughably meteoric rise of a convicted war criminal to the position of Captain on Discovery.

They made a big deal of Sisko's promotion from Commander to Captain, though, without changing his functional position as the commanding officer of Deep Space 9.

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 6:30 am They made a big deal of Sisko's promotion from Commander to Captain, though, without changing his functional position as the commanding officer of Deep Space 9.

Sometimes the writers use these ideas of rank for dramatic effect. Tom Paris gets a multi-episode arc about being demoted and then repromoted. Sometimes, dude, it's just for the drama. The episode you reference was one of the early Dominion arc episodes, so, yeah, it was a way to say, Sisko's gonna get more latitude to do what needs to be done against the Dominion, he has slightly more authority given the challenges ahead.

It's not always about the rank as much as it is about what it symbolizes.

EDIT, Also, AIUI, Avery Brooks was not happy that he was the only lead that wasn't a Captain, and during talks between the seasons he not only was adamant that he be a Captain, but he also insisted that he be allowed to shave his head and grow his goatee, as he was accustomed to.

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 6:30 am They made a big deal of Sisko's promotion from Commander to Captain, though, without changing his functional position as the commanding officer of Deep Space 9.

This is not actually a contradiction. He held the rank of Commander in his role as the CO of Deep Space Nine, as had been previously established (e.g. Commander Hutchinson in TNG's Starship Mine) and received a promotion to captain when the Defiant became part of his remit.

This year we’ll be given two more seasons of Trek with SNW getting a third and Discovery’s fifth and final.

I do think SNW has the legs to make it to seven seasons like the traditionally successful Trek series, but I am completely happy that the disaster of Discovery is ending. The format of a multi-season storyline has only ever really worked on DS9, and it was a slow build-up, with massive rewards to the viewer, save for the horrible way they killed-off Jadzia.

The strengths of SNW aren’t just its episodic format, but the fact that it seems to have struck a comfortable balance between the ideals of the older Trek and the Discovery premise. SNW has the tortured protagonist, timey-wimey stuff, strong supporting characters, and the ever present Treknobabble that helps twist the plot in ways that have worked since the ‘60s. What it could do more of is pull away from the TOS characters a bit more.

I know there are legions of Kirk and Spock fanatics that want nothing more than to see them in every episode and witness them in wildly outlandish scenarios…I get it, really. What I have always wondered about is the vast Federation. Hundreds (maybe thousands) of cultures and civilizations that we only ever hear mentioned. Why not flesh a few of them out, let them move toward the main storyline. The whole idea of Star Trek is to tell stories via allegory, so why always do it so blatantly through the eyes of humans? And no, I’m not advocating for a whole show built around the Klingons or Vulcans…I’m not that kind of fan.

In any case, I’m looking forward to SNW, and ecstatic about the end of Discovery.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:46 am I'm outlining some novelas in a sci-fi setting. The idea is I want something that will scratch the Star Trek itch without being fanfiction (i.e. something I can legally sell). What, in your opinions, defines Star Trek and its vibe? Does it have any features that make you think "Oh, this is like Star Trek" in other media?

Closest I've read recently is The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet by Becky Chambers. It's more like Firefly though.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:46 am I'm outlining some novelas in a sci-fi setting. The idea is I want something that will scratch the Star Trek itch without being fanfiction (i.e. something I can legally sell). What, in your opinions, defines Star Trek and its vibe? Does it have any features that make you think "Oh, this is like Star Trek" in other media?

There's also The Orville. I did enjoy it, but it loses a lot in comparison to early Trek. The Orville awkwardly celebrates the current system instead of pushing the envelope.

Thanks for the recommendations. I also found the Atalan series, a self-published 9-book series that's comedy sci-fi, like what I was writing. Angry Planet felt a little too YA for my taste, but I do see the appeal. the Orville is very close to just being fan fiction. It definitely gets how to write an episode of Star Trek, but it doesn't have much else going for it. Red Letter Media said it's like looking at a picture of your favorite food, which is a pretty good description.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 6:10 pm I also found the Atalan series, a self-published 9-book series that's comedy sci-fi, like what I was writing.

I'll check it out.

I liked your series. I rated all the installments 5 stars, but some didn't show up, I think.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 6:10 pm Red Letter Media said it's like looking at a picture of your favorite food, which is a pretty good description.

I have to agree.

That's very kind of you!

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:46 am I'm outlining some novelas in a sci-fi setting. The idea is I want something that will scratch the Star Trek itch without being fanfiction (i.e. something I can legally sell). What, in your opinions, defines Star Trek and its vibe? Does it have any features that make you think "Oh, this is like Star Trek" in other media?

More distant relations:

The Bobiverse series by Dennis E. Taylor is good at space exploration. There is exploration of alien societies, but the author seems like a libertarian, so it can only be so deep. It's funny in a nerdy way.

The Expeditionary Force series by Craig Alanson is a good space military series. Humanity is the weakest faction in the galaxy. There are superpowered AIs and weird tricks to hijack alien ships.

Thank you, I'll check these out!