Zompist Bboard Again

In addition, if you have retroflex obstruents, some type of rhotic could be derived from one of them, for example iirc Into-Aryan has had unconditional ɖ > ɽ in some languages. From there you could also eventually get [l] via other changes.

Through a process of pervasive devoicing affecting everything adjacent to voiceless consonants, could nasals devoice to a glottal stop? So NC clusters eventually become glottal stop + C clusters, and from there ejectives?

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:42 pm Through a process of pervasive devoicing affecting everything adjacent to voiceless consonants, could nasals devoice to a glottal stop? So NC clusters eventually become glottal stop + C clusters, and from there ejectives?

I’m not entirely sure, but Nortaneous mentioned here (and in the ensuing discussion) that nasals often get reduced to velars rather than glottals.

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:42 pm Through a process of pervasive devoicing affecting everything adjacent to voiceless consonants, could nasals devoice to a glottal stop? So NC clusters eventually become glottal stop + C clusters, and from there ejectives?

Sesotho NP NB > Pʰ Pʼ

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:17 pm

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:42 pm Through a process of pervasive devoicing affecting everything adjacent to voiceless consonants, could nasals devoice to a glottal stop? So NC clusters eventually become glottal stop + C clusters, and from there ejectives?

Sesotho NP NB > Pʰ Pʼ

Voiced plosives to ejectives after nasals? How?

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:28 am

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:17 pm

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:42 pm Through a process of pervasive devoicing affecting everything adjacent to voiceless consonants, could nasals devoice to a glottal stop? So NC clusters eventually become glottal stop + C clusters, and from there ejectives?

Sesotho NP NB > Pʰ Pʼ

Voiced plosives to ejectives after nasals? How?

mb > bb (> ʔb) > ɓ > pʼ etc. appears to be the most likely path IMO, but I don't know if that's what happened in Sesotho. (It could be, because it would go along nicely with mp > pp > ppʰ > pʰ for the voiceless counterpart.)

cedh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:59 am

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:28 am

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:17 pm
Sesotho NP NB > Pʰ Pʼ

Voiced plosives to ejectives after nasals? How?

mb > bb (> ʔb) > ɓ > pʼ etc. appears to be the most likely path IMO, but I don't know if that's what happened in Sesotho. (It could be, because it would go along nicely with mp > pp > ppʰ > pʰ for the voiceless counterpart.)

Would you say that mp > pp > ʔp > pʼ is a plausible thing to put in my conlang?

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:57 am

cedh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:59 am

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:28 am
Voiced plosives to ejectives after nasals? How?

mb > bb (> ʔb) > ɓ > pʼ etc. appears to be the most likely path IMO, but I don't know if that's what happened in Sesotho. (It could be, because it would go along nicely with mp > pp > ppʰ > pʰ for the voiceless counterpart.)

Would you say that mp > pp > ʔp > pʼ is a plausible thing to put in my conlang?

Yes.

also Icelandic NP > PP > hP; there's probably some West Norse dialect somewhere with ʔ instead of h here

Hmm .... I have a question.

In proto-Atla, there are three voiceless aspirates, /pʰ tʰ kʰ/, but due to the diachronics, the only one that can occur in post-tonic position is /kʰ/. Would it be reasonable to do sound changes like

ipékʰa "salt" ---> ipʰéka to shake it up a bit? Im not aware of a sound change of this type occuring in any natlang ... it's not really like Grassmann's Law, so I'm just kind of going for a gut feeling here.

I should add, since that doesnt get me any more aspirates in post-tonic position .... I think I might *want* aspirates to only be pre-tonic, but without a shift like this there is no way to get a voiceless aspirate in that position in the word .... they have to be in the final syllable, which means that the final syllable has to be stressed. So ... I am just basically asking about the sound change itself, even if it seems like it's not going to get me what I want.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:06 pm Hmm .... I have a question.

In proto-Atla, there are three voiceless aspirates, /pʰ tʰ kʰ/, but due to the diachronics, the only one that can occur in post-tonic position is /kʰ/. Would it be reasonable to do sound changes like

ipékʰa "salt" ---> ipʰéka to shake it up a bit? Im not aware of a sound change of this type occuring in any natlang ... it's not really like Grassmann's Law, so I'm just kind of going for a gut feeling here.

Something like this happens in Romani: dugdʰa > tʰud, buḍḍʰa > pʰuřo, jihvā > čʰib (the devoicing here is secondary)

I've got a /i e a u/ vowel system that I'm trying to collapse into /i a u/. The easy route is just to merge /e/ with /i/ and /a/ in various environments, but that's kinda boring. Any ideas as to something more interesting I could do?

I usually do /e i/ > /i ʲi/ when I find myself with that inventory (or /a i u ə/, which is similar). That's my personal recommendation.

In one language, I did /e i/ > /ja ji/ instead, except after a labialized consonant. Then I delabialized all consonants, so my vowel nucleus inventory was /a ja i ji u/.

Max1461 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:08 pm I've got a /i e a u/ vowel system that I'm trying to collapse into /i a u/. The easy route is just to merge /e/ with /i/ and /a/ in various environments, but that's kinda boring. Any ideas as to something more interesting I could do?

Ci > Cʲi (as Pabappa suggested, maybe only for certain consonants; here I'll just use *ti *ki *si > tʃi tʃi ʃi)
e a > i a / stressed
e a > ɛ ə > a ɨ / unstressed
ɨ > u / adjacent to a labial consonant or when the following syllable contains /u/
ɨ > i / otherwise

Examples:
tipéke > tʃipíka
kaméku > kumíku
mikéta > mikíti
ratíme > ritʃíma
nukéki > nukítʃi
lakúma > lukúmu
mapátu > mupátu
palúsi > pulúʃi
merésa > marísi
nakálu > nikálu

Max1461 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:08 pm I've got a /i e a u/ vowel system that I'm trying to collapse into /i a u/. The easy route is just to merge /e/ with /i/ and /a/ in various environments, but that's kinda boring. Any ideas as to something more interesting I could do?

a > a, o (split)
i u > ɿ v̩ > ə (cf. Oogami, also Angami *u > *v̩ > ə <ü>)
e o > i u
ə > whatever (maybe u)

I have /pl tl kl ql/ all merging together into /t͡ɬ/. All of the original clusters can also occur after syllable-initial /s/, but I don't want to have /st͡ɬ/ without an intervening syllable break. What can I do to the /st͡ɬ/ cluster, then? Elide the /s/ portion, especially if my phonotactics don't give me resyllabification as an option? Change it to /t͡ɬʰ/?

StrangerCoug wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 6:55 pm I have /pl tl kl ql/ all merging together into /t͡ɬ/. All of the original clusters can also occur after syllable-initial /s/, but I don't want to have /st͡ɬ/ without an intervening syllable break. What can I do to the /st͡ɬ/ cluster, then? Elide the /s/ portion, especially if my phonotactics don't give me resyllabification as an option? Change it to /t͡ɬʰ/?

What about /sCl/ > /ɬ/?

StrangerCoug wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 6:55 pm I have /pl tl kl ql/ all merging together into /t͡ɬ/. All of the original clusters can also occur after syllable-initial /s/, but I don't want to have /st͡ɬ/ without an intervening syllable break. What can I do to the /st͡ɬ/ cluster, then? Elide the /s/ portion, especially if my phonotactics don't give me resyllabification as an option? Change it to /t͡ɬʰ/?

/t͡ɬʰ/ would make sense as part of a general /sC/ > /Cʰ/ rule.

aporaporimos wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 7:45 pmWhat about /sCl/ > /ɬ/?

missals wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 8:05 pm/t͡ɬʰ/ would make sense as part of a general /sC/ > /Cʰ/ rule.

I like both these ideas, the first one especially given I already have /sl/ > /ɬ/.