Zompist Bboard Again

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:27 pm Chicago

/ʃɨkɑgəw/

I used a schwa for the -i- of Chicago because that's what Wiktionary has. I don't know how much the difference between [ɪ] and schwa matters in such a position to begin with. I could've used [ɪ] instead.

I heard Susan Page, moderator of the vice presidential debate, pronounce either with [əɪ].

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:10 pm I heard Susan Page, moderator of the vice presidential debate, pronounce either with [əɪ].

Also, from talking about pronunciations of the word, I found my mom unprompted would pronounce either with [i] or [əe̯] not with [ae̯].

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:10 pm I heard Susan Page, moderator of the vice presidential debate, pronounce either with [əɪ].

That (or something there about) is commonplace in the UK.

Jonlang wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:32 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:10 pm I heard Susan Page, moderator of the vice presidential debate, pronounce either with [əɪ].

That (or something there about) is commonplace in the UK.

I thought that raising of /aɪ/ was specifically a Scottish thing within the UK.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:34 pm

Jonlang wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:32 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:10 pm I heard Susan Page, moderator of the vice presidential debate, pronounce either with [əɪ].

That (or something there about) is commonplace in the UK.

I thought that raising of /aɪ/ was specifically a Scottish thing within the UK.

Well, if I'm understanding the pronunciation correctly, the word "either" often starts with either a rising 'ai' sound like in 'sight' or an [iː] but I think it depends more on the phonological environment than it does dialect, though one pronunciation may be more common in, say, Scottish English. I'm far from an expert but I definitely hear an 'ai' diphthong in 'either' in North Wales.

Jonlang wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:35 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:34 pm

Jonlang wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:32 am

That (or something there about) is commonplace in the UK.

I thought that raising of /aɪ/ was specifically a Scottish thing within the UK.

Well, if I'm understanding the pronunciation correctly, the word "either" often starts with either a rising 'ai' sound like in 'sight' or an [iː] but I think it depends more on the phonological environment than it does dialect, though one pronunciation may be more common in, say, Scottish English. I'm far from an expert but I definitely hear an 'ai' diphthong in 'either' in North Wales.

What I mean is that the pronunciation of /aɪ/ with raising, like my [əe̯], is primarily a Scottish (and American and Canadian) thing, and is not typically found in the rest of the UK, so I am surprised that raising is more common in the UK.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:32 am

Jonlang wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:35 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:34 pm

I thought that raising of /aɪ/ was specifically a Scottish thing within the UK.

Well, if I'm understanding the pronunciation correctly, the word "either" often starts with either a rising 'ai' sound like in 'sight' or an [iː] but I think it depends more on the phonological environment than it does dialect, though one pronunciation may be more common in, say, Scottish English. I'm far from an expert but I definitely hear an 'ai' diphthong in 'either' in North Wales.

What I mean is that the pronunciation of /aɪ/ with raising, like my [əe̯], is primarily a Scottish (and American and Canadian) thing, and is not typically found in the rest of the UK, so I am surprised that raising is more common in the UK.

I think he just thought you were talking about the use of the PRICE vowel as opposed to FLEECE. "Canadian raising" is not common in England and Wales, though it's not unheard of, and some dialects (typically from the southern half of England but not close to London) have a relatively raised starting point regardless of the following consonant.

It's weird (as I think you realised, hence your original post) to have the raised version in either, and it increases my perception that you actually have some sort of phonological split here, not just the allophonic raising I think of as "Canadian raising".

anteallach wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:46 pm It's weird (as I think you realised, hence your original post) to have the raised version in either, and it increases my perception that you actually have some sort of phonological split here, not just the allophonic raising I think of as "Canadian raising".

My usual pronunciation is actually with /i/, and /aɪ/ is not my natural pronunciation. But with my parents, they will pronounce it either way with [i] or [əe̯], and they do not seem to naturally pronounce it with [ae̯]. And when I force myself to pronounce it with /aɪ/ it tends to come out as [əe̯].

This image is from John Wells's pronunciation dictionary. Apparently people are increasingly pronouncing "one" with LOT rather than STRUT in the UK. What do you guys say? Also if you're from Australia, NZ, Ireland.

Nectar wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:26 pm This image is from John Wells's pronunciation dictionary. Apparently people are increasingly pronouncing "one" with LOT rather than STRUT in the UK. What do you guys say? Also if you're from Australia, NZ, Ireland.

I definitely have /wʌn/. (I don’t remember having ever heard /wɒn/; that pronunciation sounds fairly strange to me.)

What bradrn said. I don't think I've ever heard /wɒn/, but it'd definitely strike me as a very regional form if I did hear it. Perhaps Midlands-ish?

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:29 pm(I don’t remember having ever heard /wɒn/; that pronunciation sounds fairly strange to me.)

KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:14 amWhat bradrn said. I don't think I've ever heard /wɒn/, but it'd definitely strike me as a very regional form if I did hear it. Perhaps Midlands-ish?

I asked this question elsewhere, and someone who said was from somewhere near Norwich said she had /wɒn/, and replied with the emoticon "oO" (surprised) when I mentioned that both the Cambridge free online dictionary and the online Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary show only /wʌn/. Another person there, also from England (region unknown), briefly just said "I think won & lot have the same nucleus for us" very matter-of-fact-ly. I should add they're both quite young, probably around 20 years old, too.

And I'm asking this question after I saw someone, again from England but of an unknown region, saying "Well the OED gives /wʌn/ for "one" but if that's the same vowel as /dʌn/ ("done"), I'm sendin my ears back :​-)", apparently in disbelief that people say it with the STRUT vowel.

If you guys have rarely or never heard /wɒn/, and if they have rarely or never heard /wʌn/, it sounds like there's probably some curious societal effects going on, with non-intermingling social circles. Or just people somehow not paying attention to the difference in the phoneme used.

I am reminded of a time many years ago when Xephyr was surprised that people, in fact the majority in North America, say "with" with [θ]. He says it with [ð], which apparently only a fifth or so of the population does. (I recall pharazon was able to find a paper that stated 18% or 23% or something like that uses [ð] in it.)

huh, "with" doesn't have θ-ð free variation for most people?

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:26 pmApparently people are increasingly pronouncing "one" with LOT rather than STRUT in the UK. What do you guys say? Also if you're from Australia, NZ, Ireland.

Yes, they are and I hate it. The LOT pronunciation has always been more common in northern England but it has definitely spread. Where I live (north Wales) there is a definite mix of LOT and STRUT pronunciations. I'm in my thirties and I use the STRUT pronunciation, where as many people around my age 25-35 are mixed. Personally, the LOT pronunciations sounds terribly substandard.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:11 am huh, "with" doesn't have θ-ð free variation for most people?

I am familiar with both pronunciations but consistently have /θ/ myself.

width
breadth

I consistently say /wɒn/, but it reduces to [wən] in contexts like 'one of the'. I'm from the UK Midlands.

quinterbeck wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:58 amI consistently say /wɒn/, but it reduces to wè

IPA? And if it's consistently not [wɒn], how do you now the "wè" is not the reduction of /wʌn/?


JAL