Zompist Bboard Again

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 2:56 pm Yeah, it's pretty frustrating how, at the moment, in a number of countries, 1) the people most likely to succeed in their attempts to overthrow the current status quo are really messed up, evil, and horrible, and guaranteed to rule in really messed up, evil, and horrible ways if they should really make it to the top, and at the same time, 2) the current status quo is itself pretty messed up and horrible, and unlikely to last forever.

This is why, even if one really does not like the current system, one often votes for centrists, because the likely alternative is so unspeakably horrible that centrists, even ones one hates underneath it all, are the only acceptable choice. This is why I vote Democrat, and why I hate leftists who don't vote Democrat on some twisted sort of "principle" because in reality they are just helping the fascists.

Is Islamophobia still as big in the USA as it was 5-20 years ago? Of course there's still a lot of bigotry against Muslims in many countries, including the US, but recently, I kind of got the impression that at least some of the people in the US who used to go on and on about the evils of Muslims have moved on to the next shiny object - often to hating Asian Americans, and often to hating people with any kind of ancestry who simply have the "wrong" political views. I think I've even seen some signs of some individual US extreme right-wingers getting pseudo-"thoughtful" about whether Islamic fundamentalists might actually be "good guys" in the struggle against the evils of liberal secularism.

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 8:01 am Is Islamophobia still as big in the USA as it was 5-20 years ago?

Racism has been largely agnostic for a long time in the US.

The foundational issue in the US is/has been racism since well before 1776. Most other ills are symptoms of that disease and aren't likely to heal much for a good while based on the demographics.

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 8:01 amIs Islamophobia still as big in the USA as it was 5-20 years ago? Of course there's still a lot of bigotry against Muslims in many countries, including the US, but recently, I kind of got the impression that at least some of the people in the US who used to go on and on about the evils of Muslims have moved on to the next shiny object - often to hating Asian Americans, and often to hating people with any kind of ancestry who simply have the "wrong" political views.

Pew Research tracks these opinions over time. You can see the results of their most recent survey on USAmericans' attitudes toward various religious groups here: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/20 ... catholics/. You can contrast this with results of earlier surveys here: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/20 ... us-groups/. Key points seem to be:

1. There's a positive correlation between personally knowing a member of a particular religious group and feeling neutral or positive about that group. As more USAmericans come to know Muslims personally, the general "temperature" of their attitudes has improved.
2. There's also a strong correlation between political affiliation and attitudes toward Muslims. As USAmericans are becoming more polarised politically, attitudes toward Muslims are diverging (as they are in many areas) with Democrats feeling more positively toward them and Republicans more negatively.

I think I've even seen some signs of some individual US extreme right-wingers getting pseudo-"thoughtful" about whether Islamic fundamentalists might actually be "good guys" in the struggle against the evils of liberal secularism.

Admittedly, I don't read much about what extreme rightwingers are thinking, but I haven't seen any indications of this.

Wow, thank you, Linguoboy, I didn't expect anyone to do that much research! Very interesting.

Just from my personal, unscientific, limited perception, it seems that there is less Islamophobia in the US today than there was, say, ten years ago, and conversely more anti-Asian sentiment today than ten years ago, even though I would say that there is probably still more Islamophobia today than there is anti-Asian bigotry here in the US.

Okay, the house in Tennessee has expelled two (and attempted to expel another) members for engaging in an anti-gun violence protest, and even more so than we had ever guessed, Clarence Thomas has been shown to be deeply corrupt. Sigh...

And, of course, the two members who were expelled were young black men, while the one who wasn't was an older white women... is that a coincidence? I somehow doubt it.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 12:54 pm One recent "red-brown" thing that comes to mind is how all the hard authoritarian lefties (and even some of the libertarian ones - Noam Chomsky, I'm speaking of you here) came to apologize for the Russians in the Russo-Ukrainian War...

While some anti-Americanism shines through still, he seems to condemn the Putin invasion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political ... _on_Russia
Also, he's only 'libertarian' in the sense 'libertarian socialist' i.e. a form of left-wing anarchist.

Torco wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 8:31 am Yeah, whenever I get tired of very political people having the same byzantine debates over and over again, reproducing a sort of hegelian transcendental Discourse what merely instantiates itself in particular people but is of the realm of forms, I try to talk to a normie.

I find the exact opposite. After all the ignorant normie things I've heard lately (whether it's confusing water vapour with pollution, saying we shouldn't care about the planet because electric cars are expensive, voting for the party because they make better antisocial network videos, or voting for the government because they gave social security they did not put in place), it would be abreath of fresh air to just blame everything on the other political side.

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 9:21 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 12:54 pm One recent "red-brown" thing that comes to mind is how all the hard authoritarian lefties (and even some of the libertarian ones - Noam Chomsky, I'm speaking of you here) came to apologize for the Russians in the Russo-Ukrainian War...

While some anti-Americanism shines through still, he seems to condemn the Putin invasion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political ... _on_Russia
Also, he's only 'libertarian' in the sense 'libertarian socialist' i.e. a form of left-wing anarchist.

Chomsky, though, has blamed NATO at least in part for the war and said that the war is simply a matter of Realpolitik, which is a way of apologizing for Russia by reducing the amount of responsibility the Russian gov't is held to.

On another note, note that I said libertarian, not "Libertarian" - anarchists have used libertarian to describe themselves from long before so-called "Libertarians" (i.e. ultracapitalist rightist types) managed to sink their claws into it, and I felt no need to clarify it given the context.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Apr 07, 2023 12:47 pm And, of course, the two members who were expelled were young black men, while the one who wasn't was an older white women... is that a coincidence? I somehow doubt it.

Unlike the other two, she didn't yell slogans with a megaphone from the "well" of the chamber. In fact, before the vote on the resolution to expel her, she objected to it on formal grounds since it used the same language as the other two resolutions, which explicitly mentioned this as one of the "disruptive" actions deserving of censure. Her lawyers pointed out that "no court in the land" would accept such a motion with such obvious factual inaccuracies. One of the five Republicans who voted to expel the two men but not Johnson explicitly cited these "inaccuracies" in his press release justifying his vote.

Of course, Johnson herself, when questioned immediately after the expulsions, said bluntly “It might have to do with the color of our skin.” Which clearly it does--expulsion is the most severe form of censure the Tennessee House is empowered to enact for a violation of the rules of decorum. It wasn't justified for any of the three, so if the Republican supermajority is just going to expel members of the minority party because they can, why bother even pretending to have scruples? But there is nothing that annoys a Southern good ol' boy more than an uppity person of colour. (This is abundantly clear in the scolding Rep. Farmer gives Pearson right before the vote on his explusion; he literally falls just short of calling him "boy". Pearson's response is terrific, btw, and worth watching in full: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp0YYNTo3ns)

The upshot of all this is that--as more than one pundit has pointed out--"The Tennessee House is getting a real-time lesson in Critical Race Theory." The expulsions instantly went national, further solidifying in the minds of the moderates who swing elections the identity of the GOP as the Party of Racists. (One Republican analyst called the incident "toxic" for the "Republican brand" on a national level.) The President condemned the actions of the House and the Vice President flew out to meet the Three and deliver a speech defending them. Jones and Pearson are now rising young stars in the Democratic Party, with a bright future ahead of them regardless of whether they get returned to the Tennessee House by their local councils. (The Nashville metropolitan council has already pledged to return Jones; Pearson's fate is less clear at the moment.)

ETA: The Nashville council has voted unanimously to reinstate Jones.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 3:20 pm Jones and Pearson are now rising young stars in the Democratic Party, with a bright future ahead of them regardless of whether they get returned to the Tennessee House by their local councils. (The Nashville metropolitan council has already pledged to return Jones; Pearson's fate is less clear at the moment.)

ETA: The Nashville council has voted unanimously to reinstate Jones.

My understanding is that Pearson will likely be re-seated by the end of the week.

A true self-own by the TN GOP. If they had let things happen without such an obviously hostile response, most folks would still be unaware of Jones & Pearson. Poetic irony for the w1n.

masako wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 8:55 amMy understanding is that Pearson will likely be re-seated by the end of the week.

Possibly as early as tomorrow, according to what I've read.

masako wrote:A true self-own by the TN GOP. If they had let things happen without such an obviously hostile response, most folks would still be unaware of Jones & Pearson. Poetic irony for the w1n.

Not to mention the way it's energised younger and more liberal voters, who were already riled up due to the mass shooting. (The whole precipitating incident, after all, was a peaceful protest at the capitol building spearheaded by student activists.) Tennessee is still gerrymandered as hell, but alienating the youth while your own constituents die off disproportionately due to policies you've championed (such as politicising a pandemic and refusing to expand Medicaid) is not a recipe for long-term electoral success.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 1:05 pm Tennessee is still gerrymandered as hell, but alienating the youth while your own constituents die off disproportionately due to policies you've championed (such as politicising a pandemic and refusing to expand Medicaid) is not a recipe for long-term electoral success.

The GOP - in general/nationally - seems far more concerned with the short term consolidation of power than any long-term policy proposals that will garner majority support.

If I were smarter I'd wager that maybe demographics have something to do with their actions, but I just can't say for sure.

EDIT: Image for those interested.

masako wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 1:41 pmThe GOP - in general/nationally - seems far more concerned with the short term consolidation of power than any long-term policy proposals that will garner majority support.

Yeah, it's pretty much been entirely taken over by grifters at this point.

masako wrote:If I were smarter I'd wager that maybe demographics have something to do with their actions, but I just can't say for sure.

Clearly. The more clever operatives can read the writing on the wall which is why they've pivoted from attacking Democrats to attacking democracy itself. Can't win the voters over? Disenfranchise them then. Which works pretty well until suddenly it doesn't. (And the longer it goes on, the more violent that turning point has the potential to be.)

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 9:46 am

Torco wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 8:31 am Yeah, whenever I get tired of very political people having the same byzantine debates over and over again, reproducing a sort of hegelian transcendental Discourse what merely instantiates itself in particular people but is of the realm of forms, I try to talk to a normie.

I find the exact opposite. After all the ignorant normie things I've heard lately (whether it's confusing water vapour with pollution, saying we shouldn't care about the planet because electric cars are expensive, voting for the party because they make better antisocial network videos, or voting for the government because they gave social security they did not put in place), it would be abreath of fresh air to just blame everything on the other political side.

Oh, I do grok you: normies are a breath of fresh air after a night out with politically engaged intelligentsia: but politically engaged intelligentsia are a breath of fresh air after hanging out with normies too much as well. insert thanos balance meme.

A theory about the republicans (I don't like calling them grand old nuthin) strikes my mind: maybe they're not grifters, but, rather, they're... post-ironic? like, the centrist politically correct consensus of the 90ies was so tame it felt useless to us progressives, but for many people, it quite possibly felt like a constant state of dissociation! like, they knew in their heart all these things, and yet, TV land all day every day went on as if their sincerely held views (evil views, let's not confuse ourselves, but theirs nevertheless) simply didn't exist: to say "blacks are inferior" is haram, and rightly so! but that doesn't mean supremacists stop being supremacists: maybe they just got used to not saying what they mean but going about it through euphemism and innuendo so much that's just the way they speak now. Their inner monologue just got so colonized with the required insincerity it took to simply speak in public (not being able to say gayness is wrong, but nevertheless believing it and having to talk about gayness or something, and so having to use "grooming" or "family values" or whatever) that metaphor just became figure of speech, and figure of speech in turn just... the name for the thing, you know? post-ironic. man, talk about postmodernism.

If what you're saying is that they've come to believe their own lies, I can kind of get on board. They can't be honest and say "gay sex grosses me out" so instead they call it "unnatural"--despite all scientific evidence to the contrary--and keep saying that to the point that they're convinced it's true and that the scientists must all be lying for...some vague nefarious reasons (like being threatened by the "gay mafia" or whatever).

Still, it's a big tent and there's room for both grifters and true believers. Honestly, though, it seems like the latter are being increasingly forced out. Just look at all the senior Republicans who chose to retire from politics--whether serving in the Executive, Judicial, or Legislative branch--during Trump's term. There's plenty of evidence that most Republican politicians know that their claims about, say, Dominion voting machines are bullshit. Note, for instance, how few have been willing to make these claims under oath. For every true believer, there must be at least four others who'll parrot the lie because they know it will help them maintain their hold on power.

It's not exactly believing their own lies: it's more like the lies are just the conventional way to talk about a thing. like, in Tinder, for example, you don't say "want casual sex?" but rather "what you looking for", and if the answer is "netflix and chill" yo know they mean casual sex, so eventually you don't even call it casual sex in your mind, you just call it netflix and chill. It wouldn't be that unusua: when I hear medieval debates about theology, like 'god has distinct human and divine essences' vs 'god has one essence that is both divine and human', I always get the feeling that the discussion is actually about something else, though it'd take a degree in the matter to know exactly what by now.

amongst politicians, yeah, seems unlikely they'd actually be sincere. but if saying X gets them support from their base, that probably says something about what their bases sincerely think, even if those beliefs aren't necessarily exactly X.

I think what Torco is describing is more a problem on the center left in the US. Moderate Democrats have spent so many years pressing for rules of respectability that they struggle to tell the difference between a good person and a villain who uses PC language. Not doing slurs have evolved from a signifier of a desire for a virtuous society to its own distinct and complete virtue. You can oppress trans people all day, in a pleasant tone of voice, and get away with it. But the moment you take off the mask and use the T-word, suddenly this ferocious leftist tiger springs into action that previously was nowhere to be found. So of course the debate eventually becomes about the signifiers of respectability as if they were the whole point to begin with. Republicans are perfectly wise to this, and as you say may have internalized it themselves.