Sound Change Quickie Thread

[axolotl]

This is a spectacularly late reply, but I was reading through old posts and wanted to say that /ɚ/ does seem to cause l-breaking in my speech (pretty close to GenAm), just less obviously and less dramatically than closing diphthongs and high tense vowels. "girl" is something like [kɚᵊɫ], maybe, with a very small schwa in there.

For me, words like "ale", "eel", "aisle", and "oil" are clearly disyllabic, and sometime in grade school, I realized I pronounced "Carl" as a disyllable, and figured this couldn't be correct because it was spelled with one syllable. (I think I only noticed after I got Fire Emblem 7, which has a character named Karel.)

Is "girl" disyllabic for you?

In some cases, though, it's not clear whether a word is monosyllabic or disyllabic. Around here, that's the case for MOUTH + l. At one point I asked my mom (who takes some interest in US dialects) how many syllables were in some list of words (with unrelated ones as controls so it wasn't obvious what I was looking for), and those were the words she wasn't sure about.

I think I generally have monosyllables for such words, but disyllables in "owl" and "vowel", and "towel" can have either. Does anyone have a contrast between /æwl/ <owl>/<oul> and /æwəl/ <owel>? That is, are there people for whom "owl", "howl", "foul", "scowl" etc. are consistently monosyllabic, and "bowel", "towel", "trowel", "vowel" etc. are consistently disyllabic?

"aisle" and "oil" are clearly disyllabic for me, while "girl" and "eel" are sort of ambiguous.

[Rounin Ryuuji]

When pronouncing it in isolation, "eel" tends to be a disyllable [iːjəɫ], but in more rapid speech, I think it's [iːɫ]; same with "ail/ale" [eijəɫ] in isolation, but often [ejɫ]] in rapid speech; "oil" and "aisle/I'll/isle" are definitely always disyllabic [ɔɪjəɫ] and [aijəɫ], respectively; "girl" is a monosyllable [gɚɫ], but "Carl" is [kɑɹəɫ], the Fire Emblem character "Karel", I used to say [kə'ɹɛɫ] or [kɛɹəɫ] (I was never sure which was intended, but the former became more common after I'd studied some French; the Katakana spelling also points to it, I think). All of the [auwɚ] ones are also at least disyllabic except in some poetry.

[Nortaneous]

When pronouncing it in isolation, "eel" tends to be a disyllable [iːjəɫ], but in more rapid speech, I think it's [iːɫ]; same with "ail/ale" [eijəɫ] in isolation, but often [ejɫ]] in rapid speech; "oil" and "aisle/I'll/isle" are definitely always disyllabic [ɔɪjəɫ] and [aijəɫ], respectively; "girl" is a monosyllable [gɚɫ], but "Carl" is [kɑɹəɫ], the Fire Emblem character "Karel", I used to say [kə'ɹɛɫ] or [kɛɹəɫ] (I was never sure which was intended, but the former became more common after I'd studied some French; the Katakana spelling also points to it, I think). All of the [auwɚ] ones are also at least disyllabic except in some poetry.

"I'll" is homophonous with "aisle" instead of "all"?

[Ahzoh]

I say "I'll" like "all"

[Rounin Ryuuji]

When pronouncing it in isolation, "eel" tends to be a disyllable [iːjəɫ], but in more rapid speech, I think it's [iːɫ]; same with "ail/ale" [eijəɫ] in isolation, but often [ejɫ]] in rapid speech; "oil" and "aisle/I'll/isle" are definitely always disyllabic [ɔɪjəɫ] and [aijəɫ], respectively; "girl" is a monosyllable [gɚɫ], but "Carl" is [kɑɹəɫ], the Fire Emblem character "Karel", I used to say [kə'ɹɛɫ] or [kɛɹəɫ] (I was never sure which was intended, but the former became more common after I'd studied some French; the Katakana spelling also points to it, I think). All of the [auwɚ] ones are also at least disyllabic except in some poetry.

"I'll" is homophonous with "aisle" instead of "all"?

Stressed "I'll" is usually [aijəɫ], unstressed it does sound a bit more like [ɑːɫ], I guess; now that I try it more, it can sound also a bit like [aːəɫ] (distinct from "all") if I say it quickly.

[dɮ the phoneme]

how does w > m /_u look?

[KathTheDragon]

It's a synchronic rule in Hittite so yes.

[Ahzoh]

I have tried and failed to find an old post on the CBB or ZBB regarding one of my conlangs using word-initial gemination to indicate plurality.

So, how would I go about having word-initial gemination to indicate plurality again?

[Nortaneous]

I have tried and failed to find an old post on the CBB or ZBB regarding one of my conlangs using word-initial gemination to indicate plurality.

So, how would I go about having word-initial gemination to indicate plurality again?

just do it

if you want data on initial gemination it's best known from micronesian, italian dialects, and maltese

[Rounin Ryuuji]

I have tried and failed to find an old post on the CBB or ZBB regarding one of my conlangs using word-initial gemination to indicate plurality.

So, how would I go about having word-initial gemination to indicate plurality again?

You could...

(1) Consonantalise certain initial vowels, especially if unstressed, as an initial plural marker might have been;
(2) Elide an initial vowel instead, leaving behind a consonant that then assimilates to what follows;
(3) Have some form of reduplication of the initial syllable with gemination of the second element, and then elide the rest;
(4) Some combination of the above?

[Ahzoh]

Now I remember it, I remember the part of the discussion saying it could go along the route with some of Irish's mutations: some grammatical particle whose final consonant did some effect on the following noun and then that grammatical particle just deletes itself, or perhaps remains on some words that can't be geminated like /h/-initial and vowel-initial nouns.

Now I think of it, I might apsirate initial-geminate stops. I mean I know of languages with such initial geminates, but I'm not sure how stable that is phonetically.

Maybe phonemically the stops are geminate but phonetic aspirates following a consonant and geminate following a vowel. Yea, that works.

[bradrn]

I’d say the most straightforward approach would be to reduplicate the initial syllable, then somehow delete the reduplicated vowel.

if you want data on initial gemination it's best known from micronesian, italian dialects, and maltese

Also very common in Berber:

Di teqbaylit ggwten imesla : dagi 44.
Tutlayin nniḍen n tmaziɣt ur ssawḍent ar’ annecta. Amedya di tfinaɣ, 26 isekkilen kan ay gellan.
Maca llan imesla ineṣliyen, llan wiyad d ijentaḍ …

— Akafu nnig usekkil (slid : č, ǧ), neɣ ticcewt ddaw-as (ţ, z̧) sskanen tizgenaggaɣin.
— Maa teɣli teɣri zdat tayeḍ ţţarran ticcert ggwemkan is : w’ara yeswen (= wi ara yeswen).

[Nortaneous]

Now I think of it, I might apsirate initial-geminate stops. I mean I know of languages with such initial geminates, but I'm not sure how stable that is phonetically.

for whatever reason they're stable in the mediterranean, but highly unstable in micronesian:
- marshallese has two major dialect groups. in one, #Cː > yeCC; in the other, #Cː > CeC
- pohnpeian has #Cː > NC > VNC (with a high vowel unlike in micronesian)
- woleaian massively restructured the consonant system, developing a length-and-quality system vaguely similar to west germanic vowels. *ʃː *rː merge as tʃː, the short forms of pʷː kː are ɸʷ x, etc
- mokilese and pingelapese had #Cː > NC like pohnpeian; pingelapese then vocalized the nasal element completely
- chuukese preserves initial geminates

I’d say the most straightforward approach would be to reduplicate the initial syllable, then somehow delete the reduplicated vowel.

this is what happened in western micronesian. the rule can just be that vowels drop between like consonants - see here and probably here

[bradrn]

Now I think of it, I might apsirate initial-geminate stops. I mean I know of languages with such initial geminates, but I'm not sure how stable that is phonetically.

for whatever reason they're stable in the mediterranean, but highly unstable in micronesian:
- marshallese has two major dialect groups. in one, #Cː > yeCC; in the other, #Cː > CeC
- pohnpeian has #Cː > NC > VNC (with a high vowel unlike in micronesian)
- woleaian massively restructured the consonant system, developing a length-and-quality system vaguely similar to west germanic vowels. *ʃː *rː merge as tʃː, the short forms of pʷː kː are ɸʷ x, etc
- mokilese and pingelapese had #Cː > NC like pohnpeian; pingelapese then vocalized the nasal element completely
- chuukese preserves initial geminates

Interesting, thanks for sharing!

I’d say the most straightforward approach would be to reduplicate the initial syllable, then somehow delete the reduplicated vowel.

this is what happened in western micronesian. the rule can just be that vowels drop between like consonants - see here and probably here

Actually, I do remember reading about this process; I must have forgotten.

[Ahzoh]

Given what was said I came up with a neat thing:

sašt (tree) > ssašt (trees)
dau (place) > ddau (places)
man (a piece of paper) > mman (pieces of paper)

but

āf (man) > hāf (men)
ird (woman) > hird (women)
aṟan (scorpion) > haṟan (scorpions)

[bradrn]

Very nice! How did you get there?

[dɮ the phoneme]

I think I asked about this once on the old board, but does any language have unconditional f > p?

[Travis B.]

I think I asked about this once on the old board, but does any language have unconditional f > p?

Donno, but that goes so much against the normal trend, which is p > f / ɸ > h / 0, that I'd be surprised if it occurred unconditionally (as opposed to in particular contexts where fortition is favored).

[Zju]

I think I asked about this once on the old board, but does any language have unconditional f > p?

Index diachronica turns up at least two undependent cases of f > p, and honestly, I'm not surpised, given that x > k and θ > t also often tend to occur unconditionally. Surely, regional and local typology would facilitate an unconditional f > p.

An unconditional f > p is also the case in quite a few languages' sound changes in loanwords.

[Pabappa]

well the first one on the list is proto-Afro-Asiatic .... a language spoken at least 12000 and maybe 18000 years ago .... are we really in a place to be drawing up lists of sound changes? Ive always been skeptical of that particular change. in fact, those are my words you're reading if you scroll to the end of the section where Afro-Asiatic comes up again.

I see a couple of other examples, but I dont know enough about the proto-languages involved to give a more coherent opinion ... they all seem to depend on proto-languages I dont know very well.


x > k sounds difficult as well.