Elections in various countries

[xxx]

Look, voters can be wrong. The German voters were wrong in 1933, weren't they?
Hopefully this is not 1933 Germany... then again who knows how bad things can get now.

in representative democracy, it is the parties which must propose solutions to problems,
voters choose only what is offered to them...

the advent of the Nazis in Germany is the result of the imperience of political parties
and their successive radicalization,
to the point of making a delusional party acceptable...

rather than throwing anathema at one's head,
working on what is important to voters
must never be lost sight of...

[Ares Land]

rather than throwing anathema at one's head,
working on what is important to voters
must never be lost sight of...

I disagree. There are limits to democracy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

40% of voters are ignorant and morally bankrupt and voted accordingly. Thank God the RN is only a watered down parody of nazism and not the real thing -- even then the consequences can be extremely dire.

You have a point in that the political offers plays a part. People have been told an unacceptable option was acceptable, even normal; that racism is somewhat a normal reaction, understandable, natural even. When people are ignorant, the fault also lies with those who educated them.

[WeepingElf]

It is up to what the centre-right parties do. Do they team with the centre-left to defend democracy and European unification, or do they succumb to the temptation to cooperate with the far right on "practical issues"? Here in Germany, they are right now doing the former, though things such as the Kemmerich affair in Thuringia (a centre-right candidate was elected governor with the votes of the far-right AfD, but there was such a big public outcry that he had to resign after a few days) raise doubts on their sincerity, but in some other EU countries, centre-right parties are already allying with the far right. But so far, the centre-right parties ally more with the centre-left on the EU level, which gives me hope, and I'd expect centrist voters to move from the centre-right to the centre-left where centre-right parties ally with the far right. So it's not impending doom, but still a serious crisis.

[Ares Land]

It is up to what the centre-right parties do. Do they team with the centre-left to defend democracy and European unification, or do they succumb to the temptation to cooperate with the far right on "practical issues"? Here in Germany, they are right now doing the former, though things such as the Kemmerich affair in Thuringia (a centre-right candidate was elected governor with the votes of the far-right AfD, but there was such a big public outcry that he had to resign after a few days) raise doubts on their sincerity, but in some other EU countries, centre-right parties are already allying with the far right. But so far, the centre-right parties ally more with the centre-left on the EU level, which gives me hope, and I'd expect centrist voters to move from the centre-right to the centre-left where centre-right parties ally with the far right. So it's not impending doom, but still a serious crisis.

Yes, that's kind of key (except here in France, where the system isn't conducive to coalitions). I hope the German right has learned a few things from their Austrian neighbours.

[xxx]

40% of voters are ignorant and morally bankrupt and voted accordingly.

you propose to strip them of their civil rights,
confiscate their property,
and park them in the countryside...
(two of the three measures have perhaps already been taken...)

[Ares Land]

40% of voters are ignorant and morally bankrupt and voted accordingly.

you propose to strip them of their civil rights,
confiscate their property
and park them in the countryside...
(two of the three measures have perhaps already been taken...)

No, that sort of thing is more like what your side wants to do.

We should just denounce fascist for what they are, and stop enabling there. That'd be more than enough.

[xxx]

40% of voters are ignorant and morally bankrupt and voted accordingly.

you propose to strip them of their civil rights,
confiscate their property
and park them in the countryside...
(two of the three measures have perhaps already been taken...)

No, that sort of thing is more like what your side wants to do.
We should just denounce fascist for what they are, and stop enabling there. That'd be more than enough.

once again I do not consider myself right-wing,
but I am displeased to see that those who claim to be left-wing
are no longer so at all...

[Ares Land]

once again I do not consider myself right-wing,
but I am displeased to see that those who claim to be left-wing
are no longer so at all...

What's that? Are left-wingers supposed to be OK with racism now?

[rotting bones]

If you have a long-term policy of immigration, you have to create jobs in proportion to the immigration rate even if that creates market inefficiencies.

[xxx]

and if you don't...

[rotting bones]

Then you have people agitating for more jobs or fewer immigrants.

[Ares Land]

If you have a long-term policy of immigration, you have to create jobs in proportion to the immigration rate even if that creates market inefficiencies.

For better or for worse, we don't 'create jobs' here; this is left to the market.
The immigration policy is also pretty restrictive, and increasingly so, precisely in the vain hope to satisfy far-right voters. They're not as restrictive as they could be, because of lingering ethical and humanitarian concerns.
What should be clear is that RN voters are also bothered by Arabs, or Black people, whose family may well have lived here for two generations. They're not only bothered by current immigration (no matter how small the numbers are), they are bothered by immigrants from 30, 40 or 50 years ago. And their children.

[rotting bones]

For better or for worse, we don't 'create jobs' here; this is left to the market.
The immigration policy is also pretty restrictive, and increasingly so, precisely in the vain hope to satisfy far-right voters. They're not as restrictive as they could be, because of lingering ethical and humanitarian concerns.
What should be clear is that RN voters are also bothered by Arabs, or Black people, whose family may well have lived here for two generations. They're not only bothered by current immigration (no matter how small the numbers are), they are bothered by immigrants from 30, 40 or 50 years ago. And their children.

The market puts a squeeze on the number of jobs for the sake of efficiency. Under conditions of scarcity, the feeble-minded will turn on the weirdos.

[Ares Land]

The market puts a squeeze on the number of jobs for the sake of efficiency. Under conditions of scarcity, the feeble-minded will turn on the weirdos.

I think the rise of the far-right is at least partly encouraged, by various means; so as to move the range of debate somewhat to the right and so that annoying ideas, such as socialism, don't get discussed too closely.

[Ares Land]

The left-wing alliance seems to be holding up so far. It looks like the election might be primarily Front Populaire vs. RN; Macron's party is... not doing well.

The treatment of the Front Populaire, both by the president and the media is, to be frank, pretty disgusting. You do get a distinct impression that a lot of our higher-ups would be more comfortable with a far-right government than with a left-wing one.

Now let's keep our fingers crossed...

Oh, and the most likely outcomes are...um, not good. It's going to end up either with a RN majority, or no clear majority at all.

[xxx]

as long as mainstream parties
don't take the needs of voters into their own hands,
and leave them to the extremes,
there's a real risk that extremists will be elected
with the rest of their package that nobody wants...

and unnatural alliances
between mainstream parties and the extremes,
on both the right and the left,
can only lead to the worst,
their seizure of power
or a flight back to Macronism,
which nobody wants any more...

[Ares Land]

and unnatural alliances
between mainstream parties and the extremes,
on both the right and the left,

I don't see what bothers you so much about Macron then. That's pretty much what he said yesterday.
Personally, I found him pretty insulting to the left. You do get the distinct impression that socialism bothers him a lot more than fascism.

EDIT: opinion polls are hinting at a RN/Front populaire duel in almost all consistuencies, which is pretty shocking.

Whether you should call Front populaire far left or not is up to debate; but I do get people being shocked, because it is a lot more radical than we're used to.

[xxx]

macron 2eme mandat has never had a real governing majority,
his continued rule exacerbates violent movements...

macron hopes to win back
socialist voters fleeing islamism and anti-semitism from LFI
(we're talking about 40% of PS voters)
and LR voters (for what's left) fleeing racism
in the event of a right-wing agreement, which is less obvious...

instead of tackling the problems of social and security deterioration head on...

[Ares Land]

instead of tackling the problems of social and security deterioration head on...

I don't think Macron is able to tackle that; this isn't something that centrism is equiped to handle.
What we have here is basically a certain view of society and economics; I don't what to call it, capitalism? neo-liberalism? the Washington consensus? Anyway, it's a mainstream view that turned out wrong and an economic model that just breaks down. It's not going to be fixed unless you abandon that model; it's not something Macron's centrists can do.

[xxx]

no, there's no need to risk a tabula rasa adventure,
we just need to move the cursors with targeted measures...
socially, it's quite simple, Europe's power is only what we give it,
economically, with globalization, much less so...

but the mix of right-wing social policy and left-wing economic policy is a difficult balance...
it is opposite from the usual practice
of pronouncing a social freedom to weaken its power by fracturing it
and allowing maximum liberalism economically...