Zompist Bboard Again

xxx wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2024 4:12 am but the mix of right-wing social policy and left-wing economic policy is a difficult balance...

That's a common right-wing (or far-right) promise here, and somehow the voters never get what they want. Bardella (the RN) is already denouncing several of his campaign promises, as for instance with retirement age.

As for security... Everybody, from the far right to the center, wants to beat up foreigners or Muslims harder; the recent immigration law is pretty damn strict already -- does it fix anything? Macron is promising a debate on laicité, and I mean, OK, fine, whatever, but once we've all collectively proclaimed that Muslims are very, very bad people, will we feel any better?

I personally feel it's time to be a little more adventurous with left-wing measures. I think we'd all breathe a bit easier if wages were indexed on inflation, or with a decent retirement age, or if we blocked the prices of a few key necessities.
Of course it remains to be seen how many of the voters feel the same way...

Ares Land wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2024 2:55 am The left-wing alliance seems to be holding up so far. It looks like the election might be primarily Front Populaire vs. RN; Macron's party is... not doing well.

Personally, I’m not sure how happy I am with this. Mélenchon is quite worryingly antisemitic, though I don’t know precisely how significant he is in the context of the whole alliance. (And I do mean antisemitic, not just anti-Zionist.) I may not love Macron or his party, but he honestly seems like the lesser of all the evils in this country.

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2024 5:06 am Personally, I’m not sure how happy I am with this. Mélenchon is quite worryingly antisemitic, though I don’t know precisely how significant he is in the context of the whole alliance. (And I do mean antisemitic, not just anti-Zionist.) I may not love Macron or his party, but he honestly seems like the lesser of all the evils in this country.

Mixed feelings are understandable. I think, along with many left-wingers, that they should have locked Mélenchon in a broom closet somewhere for the duration. That, alas, does not seem to be possible.
We're definitely paying the price for LFI stupidity.
I personally don't think Mélenchon is antisemitic, just blinded by the whole anti-Zionist thing. I'm certain antisemitism would not be condoned by an hypothetical Front Populaire government -- I wouldn't support them otherwise.

My own view is that Macron has been immensely destructive; compared to 2017, it looks like the country has, well, broken down under almost all respects. Besides, several of his measures have been, in my view, racist, and it's pretty clear more is planned in case he gets a majority.
I'd still vote for him or his party if it's a choice between them or the RN, but it'll be a hard thing to do.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 6:56 am I don't believe tales about supposedly 'lost' left-wingers desperately turning for the RN. Everybody knows what the RN is; if they vote for them they're racist and not a little fascist either.

People should know but, in my experience, many don't because they don't have enough general knowledge in general. Many don't even know what the name of the election is the eve of election day.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 5:14 am

xxx wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 4:55 am I do not think that it is a question of racism but of calamitous management of Europe and its absence of international vision and ambition,
if not ultra liberalist oligarchy,
it is not surprising that this translates into a asks citizens for a return from the states in its management...

We should not delude ourselves
If people were bothered by neo-liberalism/ultra-liberalism, they'd vote for left-wing parties. Largely, they don't.

There are those frustrating people who are totally against neo-liberalism but refuse to vote at all because it would be too much like being part of The System, as they aren't already part of The System - if there is 1 and only 1 - by consuming media and products.

xxx wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2024 4:12 am no, there's no need to risk a tabula rasa adventure,
we just need to move the cursors with targeted measures...
socially, it's quite simple, Europe's power is only what we give it,
economically, with globalization, much less so...

but the mix of right-wing social policy and left-wing economic policy is a difficult balance...
it is opposite from the usual practice
of pronouncing a social freedom to weaken its power by fracturing it
and allowing maximum liberalism economically...

Something like a "tabula rasa adventure", as you put it, is the only way to substantially improve the lives of the weakest members of society. Venting their frustrations on Muslims will make everyone's lives worse.

The poor are not in poverty because Muslims exist. Their lives are bad precisely because of the people whom the far right worship as pillars of the community. For-profit businesses treat humans like cogs in a machine for the sake of maximally efficient profit extraction. This is not a conspiracy theory. It has been their publicly stated goal for centuries. They teach university courses on how to do it.

Just as the French should learn not to blame Muslims, today's Muslims should learn not to hate the Jews. I guess I shouldn't be amazed that so many people are looking for solutions in bullshit symbolism when the answer is out there in plain sight for all to see. When I was in school, I once saw a bully hit a guy. Instead of hitting back, the victim hit a smaller boy.

We're seeing self-destructive cowardice masquerading as sophistication.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2024 6:28 pmThe poor are not in poverty because Muslims exist.

of course they are...
the imported populations are the poorest,
they mechanically increase the number of poor...
hence the social problems encountered...
they are the victims of decolonization,
forced to leave their country
and live in a sub-proletariat abroad

where, with the same logic,
the poorest nationals are asked to share
and the middle classes to make sacrifices
to increase the foreign assets of an oligarchy
promoting this internationalism...

the left wing, after having encouraged colonialism, encourages decolonialism,
replaces the export of its ideals with the import of misery,
and in the process promotes the accumulation of wealth
plundered in decolonized countries,
in this modern triangular trade...

rotting bones wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2024 6:28 pm Something like a "tabula rasa adventure", as you put it, is the only way to substantially improve the lives of the weakest members of society. Venting their frustrations on Muslims will make everyone's lives worse.

Agreed.

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 1:45 am (...)

There are parts of your posts I agree, others I disagree with, but that's not my main point. My point is, I guess, that I don't see how venting middle-class frustrations on Muslims is going to help anyone.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2024 6:28 pm When I was in school, I once saw a bully hit a guy. Instead of hitting back, the victim hit a smaller boy.

Precisely what's going on here.

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:53 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 6:56 am I don't believe tales about supposedly 'lost' left-wingers desperately turning for the RN. Everybody knows what the RN is; if they vote for them they're racist and not a little fascist either.

People should know but, in my experience, many don't because they don't have enough general knowledge in general. Many don't even know what the name of the election is the eve of election day.

Ignorance is the main motor of fascism, that's a certainty.

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:59 am There are those frustrating people who are totally against neo-liberalism but refuse to vote at all because it would be too much like being part of The System, as they aren't already part of The System - if there is 1 and only 1 - by consuming media and products.

I know people like that -- and I share your frustration with their logic -- but I don't think there are that many and that they are a significant factor here.

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2024 5:06 am Personally, I’m not sure how happy I am with this. Mélenchon is quite worryingly antisemitic, though I don’t know precisely how significant he is in the context of the whole alliance. (And I do mean antisemitic, not just anti-Zionist.) I may not love Macron or his party, but he honestly seems like the lesser of all the evils in this country.

TBH, I'm spending way too much of my time doomscrolling. The upside is that I can get a few updates. The official campaign platform wil be released sometime around noon today. One important bit is that the October 7th attacked are clearly denounced as terrorists; there are also clear statements on the hostages. This part certainly clears up the air a little as far as antisemitism is concerned.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 2:21 am I don't see how venting middle-class frustrations on Muslims is going to help anyone.

it is not a question of encouraging them,
but of responding to them...
French society has never been communitarian
but centralized and homogenized,
multiple communities make it up
but are united in a common ideal...

the weight of globalization on employment
which was a driver of assimilation,
and the promotion of difference
which is a social disaggregator,
associated with a massive importation of populations to be assimilated,
themselves manipulated from their countries of origin to maintain their belonging
blocks this ideal...

today's national left wing promotes each of these levers of chaos,
it's either imbecile or Machiavellian...

the Macronist globalists like the Sarkozys in his time do not care,
this is the price to pay to make modern inverted triangular trade work,
the center has been swallowed up by this profiteering globalism...

the universalist and national heritage
from the old regime, to de Gaulle,
with the revolution and Napoleon,
has strangely moved to the right,
at the risk of seeing less glorious ideals amalgamated...

the adoration of the international golden calf
deprives the policy of temperance
and its radicalization has in the past given rise to the worst,
let us hope that a monster is not born
from this blindness and unnatural alliances...

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 2:21 am The official campaign platform wil be released sometime around noon today. One important bit is that the October 7th attacked are clearly denounced as terrorists; there are also clear statements on the hostages. This part certainly clears up the air a little as far as antisemitism is concerned.

let's hope that it is not,
like the temperance of the RN's speeches,
just a feather in the ass to please the voters...

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 3:15 am it is not a question of encouraging them,
but of responding to them...

Okay, then how? The centrist answer is that beatings will continue until morale improves.
The RN response is even worse: blaming Muslims and immigrants for every problem.
I don't see any answers from either, except that centrism is still a lesser evil.

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 3:15 am French society has never been communitarian

I honestly never understood the fuss about 'communautarisme', except as a means to keep Muslims in their place as a permanent underclass.


EDIT: on the 'unnatural alliances', that is what Macron says to the left wing. I personally see it as Macron being afraid, and as far as I'm concerned it's a very good sign.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2024 5:56 am I personally don't think Mélenchon is antisemitic, just blinded by the whole anti-Zionist thing.

The sad fact is, it doesn’t actually matter. His original motivations are irrelevant: when he says these things, that creates more room for them to be tolerated throughout the party. Just look at Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour to see how far the rot can spread.

My own view is that Macron has been immensely destructive; compared to 2017, it looks like the country has, well, broken down under almost all respects. Besides, several of his measures have been, in my view, racist, and it's pretty clear more is planned in case he gets a majority.
I'd still vote for him or his party if it's a choice between them or the RN, but it'll be a hard thing to do.

Well, I wasn’t here in 2017, so I wouldn’t know.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 2:21 am TBH, I'm spending way too much of my time doomscrolling. The upside is that I can get a few updates. The official campaign platform wil be released sometime around noon today. One important bit is that the October 7th attacked are clearly denounced as terrorists; there are also clear statements on the hostages. This part certainly clears up the air a little as far as antisemitism is concerned.

This is good to hear.

(That being said, it’s also just what any decent human being should say… are we really setting the bar so low, now?)

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 4:47 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2024 5:56 am I personally don't think Mélenchon is antisemitic, just blinded by the whole anti-Zionist thing.

The sad fact is, it doesn’t actually matter. His original motivations are irrelevant: when he says these things, that creates more room for them to be tolerated throughout the party. Just look at Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour to see how far the rot can spread.

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 4:47 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 2:21 am TBH, I'm spending way too much of my time doomscrolling. The upside is that I can get a few updates. The official campaign platform wil be released sometime around noon today. One important bit is that the October 7th attacked are clearly denounced as terrorists; there are also clear statements on the hostages. This part certainly clears up the air a little as far as antisemitism is concerned.

This is good to hear.

(That being said, it’s also just what any decent human being should say… are we really setting the bar so low, now?)

Oh, I am sad it has to come to this. That's why I have a low tolerance for all that ambiguous anti-Zionist thing.
I do think stating things clearly is a great deal better than the usual attitude of tolerating ambiguity.

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 7:47 am

Islam, like all religions, is not a problem,
it is the political use of Islam, Islamism,
that is, exploited from abroad and relayed by the far left...

I'm talking about
the rise of Islamist dress, up to and including the burqa
(not brown or black shirts),
imported imams promoting outlaw views
(not the German Nazis of the past),
massive raising of troops in our regions for Isis
(no Waffen SS for the Ukraine),
mass terrorist attacks committed by residents on our soil
(no exactions by Petainist militiamen),
agit-prop at the National Assembly with the flag of Palestine
(no Reichstag fire)...

Moving this back to the other thread, since this is about French politics. But I'm not sure I should. If you're that afraid of Muslims, there's not much I can do to convince you, anyway.

one more time, not muslims...
(and unfortunately, the impact of islamism is not limited to France...)

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 8:20 am one more time, not muslims...
(and unfortunately, the impact of islamism is not limited to France...)

Okay, you're condemning Islamism, not Muslims... But then so far you seem to be mostly defending, if not the RN itself, RN positions and RN voters. If I follow you correctly, I gather you voted for them yourself. As I see it, they see more or less all Muslims as potential Islamists; I don't think you're unaware of that.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 8:42 am

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 8:20 am one more time, not muslims...
(and unfortunately, the impact of islamism is not limited to France...)

Okay, you're condemning Islamism, not Muslims... But then so far you seem to be mostly defending, if not the RN itself, RN positions and RN voters. If I follow you correctly, I gather you voted for them yourself. As I see it, they see more or less all Muslims as potential Islamists; I don't think you're unaware of that.

Oh, I’m sure that ‘Islamist’ here is simply a dogwhistle for ‘Muslim’. It’s something which I’ve seen a lot recently. It’s no different to those people who use ‘Zionist’ as a dogwhistle for ‘Jew’.

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 8:57 am Oh, I’m sure that ‘Islamist’ here is simply a dogwhistle for ‘Muslim’. It’s something which I’ve seen a lot recently. It’s no different to those people who use ‘Zionist’ as a dogwhistle for ‘Jew’.

Tell you what, I'm pretty sure you're right.

Why should someone's religion bother me...
last month, I attended an interfaith meeting,
where I met Christians, Jews and Muslims of good will
who aspire to the same thing,
and certainly not to violence and hatred,
but to keep talking to each other,
and why not about politics,
but together, not against each other...

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 1:45 am of course they are...
the imported populations are the poorest,

Why is their being Muslim salient to you? In America, Muslims are not especially poor immigrants. Many of them have higher median household income than the national average. Indians are the richest immigrants in the US, but they are a poor minority in Malaysia.

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 1:45 am they mechanically increase the number of poor...
hence the social problems encountered...

Very good, you have expressed the core of this insanity. "The poor are poor because the poor poor at them" is nonsense because the working poor are the source of all social goods. By contrast, the rich consume more than they produce. Capitalism cannot support wealthy classes without poor classes. Money is not real. There is no substance called "wealth" that rich people have. Depending on how the poor choose to resist working for the rich, they would either starve or be beaten up by the police. That's capitalism. The system is built on exploitation from bottom up.

One reason people keep forgetting this is that relational systems are apparently not as intuitive as Platonic ideas. People think that because poor people look scrappy, they are vectors exuding a Platonic essence of poverty. However, a sane person who thinks for 2 seconds about who does the actual work will remember that that's not how reality works. If anything, the idea that the rich, despite their glossy sheen, are the vectors of poverty is closer to the truth (though this whole approach is sloppy thinking).

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 1:45 am they are the victims of decolonization,
forced to leave their country
and live in a sub-proletariat abroad

As opposed to what, living as the gloriously colonized?

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 1:45 am where, with the same logic,
the poorest nationals are asked to share
and the middle classes to make sacrifices
to increase the foreign assets of an oligarchy
promoting this internationalism...

The Muslims you are talking about are also among the weakest citizens of your country. Why do they not count?

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 1:45 am the left wing, after having encouraged colonialism, encourages decolonialism,
replaces the export of its ideals with the import of misery,
and in the process promotes the accumulation of wealth
plundered in decolonized countries,
in this modern triangular trade...

Which left supported colonialism? Lenin was calling colonialism "imperialism" more than a century ago.

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 7:47 am massive raising of troops in our regions for Isis
(no Waffen SS for the Ukraine),

Are you sure? https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/u- ... battalion/

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 2:21 am Agreed.

Thank you.