United States Politics Thread 46

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Ares Land
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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Post by Ares Land »

Travis B. wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:51 pm The right will always be against you and make up propaganda against you if they cannot find anything real to base their propaganda on in the first place - but there is no need to help them with their propaganda.
It's like that old question 'When did you stop beating your wife?' The only way to answer it is to ignore it.

Here in France there were plenty of protests over pensions -- there were claims that they were violent. Nobody on the left acknowledged these claims -- and that was the right thing to do. This kept the narrative about pensions and government authoritarism. The results weren't bad, in terms of tactics. The Financial Times, of all places, is calling Macron 'illiberal' now.
So it seems ignoring claims of violence was a winning tactic.
Travis B.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Post by Travis B. »

Ares Land wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:04 pm
Travis B. wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:51 pm The right will always be against you and make up propaganda against you if they cannot find anything real to base their propaganda on in the first place - but there is no need to help them with their propaganda.
It's like that old question 'When did you stop beating your wife?' The only way to answer it is to ignore it.

Here in France there were plenty of protests over pensions -- there were claims that they were violent. Nobody on the left acknowledged these claims -- and that was the right thing to do. This kept the narrative about pensions and government authoritarism. The results weren't bad, in terms of tactics. The Financial Times, of all places, is calling Macron 'illiberal' now.
So it seems ignoring claims of violence was a winning tactic.
Oh I agree completely. With these kinds of things, ignoring it is the right thing to do. The wrong thing to do is to respond to criticism with "but that's tone policing!"
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Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
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Travis B.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Post by Travis B. »

I should note that even if "tone policing" is invoked in internal self-criticism, it will be seen externally, and have the same effect as if it were invoked publicly.
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Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
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alice
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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Post by alice »

And the woke mind virus has reached Fox News: they've fired Tucker Carlson. When will it end?
Self-referential signatures are for people too boring to come up with more interesting alternatives.
Ares Land
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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Post by Ares Land »

alice wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:29 pm And the woke mind virus has reached Fox News: they've fired Tucker Carlson. When will it end?
I'm a bit surprised. News pieces mention homophobic, racist and anti semitic comments, but I thought that was the whole point of Tucker Carlson?
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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Post by Travis B. »

Ares Land wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:33 pm
alice wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:29 pm And the woke mind virus has reached Fox News: they've fired Tucker Carlson. When will it end?
I'm a bit surprised. News pieces mention homophobic, racist and anti semitic comments, but I thought that was the whole point of Tucker Carlson?
It could be that Tucker Carlson managed to cost Fox News $787.5 million USD. Of course, he did not do this alone, so he may very well just be the fall guy. I bet someone will replace him soon.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
chris_notts
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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Post by chris_notts »

Travis B. wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:44 pm It could be that Tucker Carlson managed to cost Fox News $787.5 million USD. Of course, he did not do this alone, so he may very well just be the fall guy. I bet someone will replace him soon.
They did it with prejudice though, he didn't even get a goodbye segment. There's an (unproven) rumour that he refused to go along with walking back the slander as required by the settlement.
Torco
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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Post by Torco »

plenty of hopefuls in the fascist pundit sphere, but a w is a w.

next week on fox news, It's the jordan b peterson show, everybody! don't forget to make your bed.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Post by Raphael »

I've seen various bits of speculation about what may or may not be going on behind the scenes, but, to be honest, I find it difficult to care, since I don't see this in any way leading to Fox News becoming any less of a fucked-up fascist mess.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Post by Travis B. »

Raphael wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:53 pm I've seen various bits of speculation about what may or may not be going on behind the scenes, but, to be honest, I find it difficult to care, since I don't see this in any way leading to Fox News becoming any less of a fucked-up fascist mess.
Of course. Tucker Carlson is only the fall guy.
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Moose-tache
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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Post by Moose-tache »

2001 - 2006: say the quiet part loud; profit
2007 - 2015: say the quiet part quiet again
2016 - 2022: say the quiet part loud; profit
2023 - ????: say the quiet part quiet again
???? - ????: say the quiet part loud; profit
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Torco
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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Post by Torco »

couldn't have said it better, but i think it's morphin to a multichannel strategy of say the quiet part quiet where it needs to be said quiet and say it loud on, whatever, truth social or something.... or I guess twitter? I heard musk lifted protections for trans people.
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Linguoboy
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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Post by Linguoboy »

Travis B. wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:51 pmThe right will always be against you and make up propaganda against you if they cannot find anything real to base their propaganda on in the first place - but there is no need to help them with their propaganda.
As I think I said before, I find this a question-begging argument. You say failure to do activism in exactly the way you find appropriate helps fascists; we're saying that it effectively makes no difference because fascists gonna fash regardless. I still don't see where you've provided any concrete evidence to support your position.
Travis B. wrote:What I am saying is that invoking "tone policing" is strategically counterproductive. Yes, in protests there will be violence and destruction, in a very large part because of the police themselves, and often also because of agents provocateurs too. Strategically one is best off doing as much as one can to emphasize this. But when people do happen to ransack shops or burn cars or like, while one in many cases cannot necessarily avoid this, particularly because it oftentimes is committed by agents provocateurs and likes themselves, one should not defend it.
I think you've effectively moved the goalposts here. (If you can find a post where someone argued for defending violent destruction in public statements, by all means quote it. Otherwise I think we can all move on.)
Torco wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:39 pmBesides, and here I am perhaps more radical than others, don't we actually justify the (some, ofc) violence, to some degree? as a regrettable necessity at least ? like, violent protest *works*. the agent provocateurs are not 'pretending' to be protesting, a lot of them are sincere (and others are cops, sure). I think this is true in france and in the US as well, but here the violent minority of the protest *is* performing a useful and valuable function, because violence a) protects the mainstream protestors, i.e. the grannies who don't wish to starve but also don't wish to be run over by police tear-gas tanquettes, it b) actually does exert pressure on the rulers that if they want to keep their stable markets and whatever, they're gonna have to at least increase pensions a bit, so the grannies don't starve. it suggests a trade: you increase pensions or else i'm gonna decrease your fucking bottom line, bougie. it c) calls attention to the protest having happened (at least here, totally peaceful protests that disperse the moment the cops deploy gas do not, in fact, work).
Thanks for making this argument, which I should have included in my previous response to Travis. I agree that violence or the threat of violence is a necessary component of successful activism. It sends the message "deal with us or you'll have to deal with them". It's not a coincidence that the Civil Rights Act of 1968 followed directly the Long Hot Summer of 1967 rather than, say, the Selma to Montgomery marches of 1965.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Post by Torco »

Indeed I have to think hard to find any achievement of the working class and/or progressive forces, you know votes for women, weekends, blablabla, that have been achieved without some violence (and against violent opposition by reaction). we don't call it class warfare for nothing.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Post by Travis B. »

Linguoboy wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:12 pm
Travis B. wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:51 pmThe right will always be against you and make up propaganda against you if they cannot find anything real to base their propaganda on in the first place - but there is no need to help them with their propaganda.
As I think I said before, I find this a question-begging argument. You say failure to do activism in exactly the way you find appropriate helps fascists; we're saying that it effectively makes no difference because fascists gonna fash regardless. I still don't see where you've provided any concrete evidence to support your position.
All I was saying was that apologizing for violence in demonstrations helps the fascists, and that while the fascists will always make up propaganda, giving them propaganda of your own accord does not help the cause. Is not apologizing for it, or for that matter, not commenting on it at all so hard?
Linguoboy wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:12 pm
Travis B. wrote:What I am saying is that invoking "tone policing" is strategically counterproductive. Yes, in protests there will be violence and destruction, in a very large part because of the police themselves, and often also because of agents provocateurs too. Strategically one is best off doing as much as one can to emphasize this. But when people do happen to ransack shops or burn cars or like, while one in many cases cannot necessarily avoid this, particularly because it oftentimes is committed by agents provocateurs and likes themselves, one should not defend it.
I think you've effectively moved the goalposts here. (If you can find a post where someone argued for defending violent destruction in public statements, by all means quote it. Otherwise I think we can all move on.)
If I recall correctly - I am not going to dig up the quote because I am not the sort to squirrel quotes away to use them at opportune times years later - I remember you referring to criticism of violence at George Floyd protests as "tone policing".
Linguoboy wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:12 pm
Torco wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:39 pmBesides, and here I am perhaps more radical than others, don't we actually justify the (some, ofc) violence, to some degree? as a regrettable necessity at least ? like, violent protest *works*. the agent provocateurs are not 'pretending' to be protesting, a lot of them are sincere (and others are cops, sure). I think this is true in france and in the US as well, but here the violent minority of the protest *is* performing a useful and valuable function, because violence a) protects the mainstream protestors, i.e. the grannies who don't wish to starve but also don't wish to be run over by police tear-gas tanquettes, it b) actually does exert pressure on the rulers that if they want to keep their stable markets and whatever, they're gonna have to at least increase pensions a bit, so the grannies don't starve. it suggests a trade: you increase pensions or else i'm gonna decrease your fucking bottom line, bougie. it c) calls attention to the protest having happened (at least here, totally peaceful protests that disperse the moment the cops deploy gas do not, in fact, work).
Thanks for making this argument, which I should have included in my previous response to Travis. I agree that violence or the threat of violence is a necessary component of successful activism. It sends the message "deal with us or you'll have to deal with them". It's not a coincidence that the Civil Rights Act of 1968 followed directly the Long Hot Summer of 1967 rather than, say, the Selma to Montgomery marches of 1965.
I am of the view that whenever violence does occur, it should always be pinned on the police, the agents provocateurs, the accelerationists, all of their lot. Of course, one should present an image of overwhelming numbers, so make it clear that those in power are facing the collective will of the people out in full force and acting in solidarity with one another. But one should emphasize that this be done in a disciplined fashion, and the more disciplined you are the more you can assign the blame for what does happen on those truly responsible.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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Linguoboy
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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Post by Linguoboy »

Ares Land wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:08 pmYou may be a bit too hard on yourself. I'd be really surprised to hear you denied a job or housing, on the basis of race, or denied promotion on grounds of gender, or even disparaged female colleagues at the water cooler.
Whether you realise it or not, this is a tactic oft used by conservatives and liberals alike of defining the standard of "racism" or "sexism" in such a way as to never implicates one's own actions and behaviours. "We don't have racism in this country--when's the last time a Black man got lynched for talking to a white women or had his house burned down for moving into a white neighbourhood? Sure, maybe Black men get stopped more often while driving or jogging in certain neighbourhoods, but that's not real racism!"

I have the confidence of a mediocre white man and I'm not afraid to use it. I have often dominated meetings at the expense of female colleagues and let them do a disproportionate amount of work on various projects that I've taken equal credit for. I benefit from sexist double standards like being able to express emotions at work (like anger) that would have more negative consequences for women (let alone WOC) and slack off more while still getting positive reviews and, in some cases, more pay than them. And I would be really really surprised if none of the men on this board could say the same.
Ares Land wrote:What I mean is that I assume that everyone here, while none of us are angels (who are?), are doing their best.
I'm sure we are, but part of doing your best is continually educating yourself about what you could do better. That means learning about how the racist and sexist status quo benefits you in ways you're not even conscious of and devising strategies to counteract that.

For instance, not only do I consciously limit how much I speak up at meetings in order to give my female and POC colleagues more space to express their ideas, I openly encourage them to take advantage of opportunities that I have already benefited from. For instance, when there's a request for volunteers to present our work before the administration or the organisation or to take a particular training, I'll say, "I'm willing to do this, but I feel like this opportunity should go to someone who would benefit from it more." The administration knows me, they know what I think; hell, I'm supposed to schedule a meeting with the Dean this week to give him a piece of my mind. But my younger female colleagues are just as smart, capable, and talented as me and deserve more credit for that they're getting.
Ares Land wrote:
Maybe try to care less about whether people your privilege allows you to avoid interacting with are saying things about you you think are mean and unfair and worry more about not actually contributing to the ills they're complaining about? How about that for an approach?
That's kind of a strawman, but maybe I wasn't clear enough because that's exactly the kind of approach I'm advocating for.
If it doesn't apply to you, then great, but there are regular posters here who spend a lot more time complaining about what certain largely marginalised folks are saying about white men then talking about what we should be doing to eliminate those folks' marginalisation, let alone doing it.
Ares Land wrote:A few years back I might have felt some sympathy for the shop owners, but by now the tactic is extremely obvious, and I am not walking into it anymore.
Here's a perfect example: During the summer of 2020, a beloved immigrant-founded independently-owned camera store in the Loop was looted and burned. It became the subject of dozens of sympathetic articles (see the References in this Wikipedia article which was created in direct response to the fire) which prompted nearly a quarter million dollars in donations. It reopened last year. Very few damaged and looted businesses on the (mainly Black) South Side were this fortunate.
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Linguoboy
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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Post by Linguoboy »

Travis B. wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:54 pmIs not apologizing for it, or for that matter, not commenting on it at all so hard?
If you're a public figure, not commenting on it is difficult, because that's what the media wants. To go back to my Brandon Johnson example, he isn't even the mayor yet but he got so many demands for comment that he finally had to put out something.
Travis B. wrote:If I recall correctly - I am not going to dig up the quote because I am not the sort to squirrel quotes away to use them at opportune times years later - I remember you referring to criticism of violence at George Floyd protests as "tone policing".
It's an easy enough quote to find and I stand by it. Not falling into the trap Torco and Ares have talked at length about is not the same as "defending violence".
Travis B. wrote:I am of the view that whenever violence does occur, it should always be pinned on the police, the agents provocateurs, the accelerationists, all of their lot. Of course, one should present an image of overwhelming numbers, so make it clear that those in power are facing the collective will of the people out in full force and acting in solidarity with one another. But one should emphasize that this be done in a disciplined fashion, and the more disciplined you are the more you can assign the blame for what does happen on those truly responsible.
This is definitely good propagandising if you can manage it. It's tricky, though, when most media outlets are going to default to demonising protesters and exonerating the police.
Ares Land
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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Post by Ares Land »

Linguoboy wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 1:05 pm
Whether you realise it or not, this is a tactic oft used by conservatives and liberals alike of defining the standard of "racism" or "sexism" in such a way as to never implicates one's own actions and behaviours. "We don't have racism in this country--when's the last time a Black man got lynched for talking to a white women or had his house burned down for moving into a white neighbourhood? Sure, maybe Black men get stopped more often while driving or jogging in certain neighbourhoods, but that's not real racism!"
Ah yeah, I got your point. Over here the only acceptable form of sexism, so it seems, is the veil. That way people can conveniently claim they're not sexist and bash the Muslims a bit while they're at it.
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Linguoboy
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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Post by Linguoboy »

Ares Land wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 2:18 pmAh yeah, I got your point. Over here the only acceptable form of sexism, so it seems, is the veil. That way people can conveniently claim they're not sexist and bash the Muslims a bit while they're at it.
https://data.ipu.org/content/france?chamber_id=13396
Moose-tache
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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Post by Moose-tache »

More to the point, it's circular reasoning to define the veil as sexism. The only people who believe that are people who have never in their lives sincerely listened to a Muslim woman on this topic.

I saw plenty of American women engage with various levels of Middle Eastern body covering when I lived in Saudi Arabia. Do they let angry gays into Saudi? Shut up, I'm telling a story. One woman put on an abaya and went to the mall. She looked around and realized "no one in this mall gets to know anything about my body." This was a new and empowering experience for her. Does that mean abayas should be mandatory? No. What it does mean, is that people who have not lived an experience cannot reliably guess what that experience means to people who have lived it. Luckily, scientists have invented this new thing called "shutting the hell up and letting someone else talk for a change." Just grabbing the most recent thing in my email notifications, here is a WaPo article from January about what the hijab means to a small selection of American Muslim women. You'll notice that these women often have negative feelings about the hijab, or at least complex ones. Many of them recognize how the hijab can fit into a patriarchal regime. I mean, they're not fucking stupid. But that's not where the meaning of the hijab ends for them.
Last edited by Moose-tache on Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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