Zompist Bboard Again

Just to mention that I’ve had a chest infection and been too busy IRL but will post some updates soon. Thanks zomp for the roundup of new musical vocab - I like the Kebreni calques!

sasasha wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 12:07 pm Just to mention that I’ve had a chest infection and been too busy IRL but will post some updates soon. Thanks zomp for the roundup of new musical vocab - I like the Kebreni calques!

Get better!

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 12:17 pm

sasasha wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 12:07 pm Just to mention that I’ve had a chest infection and been too busy IRL but will post some updates soon. Thanks zomp for the roundup of new musical vocab - I like the Kebreni calques!

Get better!

Thank you!

sasasha wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 12:07 pm Just to mention that I’ve had a chest infection and been too busy IRL but will post some updates soon. Thanks zomp for the roundup of new musical vocab - I like the Kebreni calques!

keep safe and may your recovery be uneventful.

Gute Besserung!

hwhatting wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:41 am Gute Besserung!

keenir wrote: ↑Mon Mar 25, 2024 10:45 pm keep safe and may your recovery be uneventful.

Thank you for the wellwishes! I’m feeling much better and back at choir... which, given that it’s
Holy Week in the Church of England where I work, has partly prompted the following translations of the 3rd or 4th century Greek hymn Phos Hilaron (also known as the Lamp-Lighting Hymn). No religious compunction intended ‒ just Almeology!

From somewhat limited but compelling enough research, I’d suggest that the Elenicoi would likely have known the original hymn ‒ interestingly, it is the only complete non-scriptural hymn from an early enough date to qualify, and it seems to have been known widely across the early Christian world and already to have been considered old in the 4th century.

There is a suggestion that early Christian groups kept a single candle flame burning perpetually in the tomb of Christ in Jerusalem, and the tradition of lamp-lighting at evening stems from the conceptual spreading of this flame. Perhaps this practice came over with the Elenicoi... This is my excuse for adding, in the versified version, the word sula ‘single’ (which was, mainly, useful for the alliteration ‒ I’m very open to other suggestions on this and other points!). I‘m not sure about the way emphasising the single flame here steals focus from the celestial image, though I think it is possible that that is the intention in the original composition.

I also added a curiosity in the prior line: we haven’t just come to the setting of the sun, but to “this sun elsewhere”. (This involves a potentially dodgy use of telcë, normally an adverb.) The Almean version of this Elenicoi tradition seems to reference their displacement and the Miracle of the Translation... With this aspect of direct perspective, as a liturgical text, it might be revered as the song of one (or all) of the early faithful, much as the Song of Mary and Song of Simeon are used regularly in liturgy today/thisworld.

I am working on Érenati and Eleďe music in general, but what musical form this may assume is yet unknown, and likewise whether or not there is any plausible connection with later-attested musical setting of the Greek text. I wanted a Verdurian text first...

I feel my versification is rather clumsy with repetition used simply to satisfy the alliteration. I’m very much open to suggestion (and/or correction!). The really cool thing would be to have the text in Old Verdurian / Avélan ... If zomp would like to bite that apple, please be my guest!

Finally, I’m away next week and will try to get some more work presented! I’ve been working quite haphazardly while I’ve been ill but trying to re-establish some order!


🝮

Greek original:

Φῶς ἱλαρὸν ἁγίας δόξης ἀθανάτου Πατρός,
οὐρανίου, ἁγίου, μάκαρος, Ἰησοῦ Χριστέ,
ἐλθόντες ἐπὶ τὴν ἡλίου δύσιν, ἰδόντες φῶς ἑσπερινόν,
ὑμνοῦμεν Πατέρα, Υἱόν, καὶ ἅγιον Πνεῦμα, Θεόν.
Ἄξιόν σε ἐν πᾶσι καιροῖς ὑμνεῖσθαι φωναῖς αἰσίαις,
Υἱὲ Θεοῦ, ζωὴν ὁ διδούς· διὸ ὁ κόσμος σὲ δοξάζει.

Phôs hilaròn hagías dóxēs, athanátou Patrós,
ouraníou, hagíou, mákaros, Iēsoû Christé,
elthóntes epì tḕn hēlíou dýsin, idóntes phôs hesperinón,
hymnoûmen Patéra, Hyión, kaì Hágion Pneûma, Theón.
Áxión se en pâsi kairoîs hymneîsthai phōnaîs aisíais,
Hyiè Theoû, zoḕn ho didoús, diò ho kósmos sè doxázei.

🝮

Literal English (merci à Wikipedia):

O Light gladsome of the holy glory of the Immortal Father,
the Heavenly, the Holy, the Blessed, O Jesus Christ,
having come upon the setting of the sun, having seen the light of the evening,
we praise the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit: God.
Worthy it is at all times to praise Thee in joyful voices,
O Son of God, Giver of Life, for which the world glorifies Thee.

🝮

English verse translation (John Keble):

Hail, gladdening Light, of His pure glory poured
Who is the immortal Father, heavenly, blest,
Holiest of Holies, Jesus Christ our Lord!

Now we are come to the sun’s hour of rest;
The lights of evening round us shine;
We hymn the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit divine!

Worthiest art Thou at all times to be sung
With undefiled tongue,
Son of our God, Giver of life, alone:
Therefore in all the world
Thy glories, Lord, they own.

🝮

Verdurian ‒ literal:

Ä zula selta, soei nëronei bracei soán Řourisen Piron,
so Oränise, so Nëron, so Benul, Iesu Krist,

Ya žannam ad zakatán [Ënomain], ya lelnam soa selta vëčerei,
Eglérom Iain, Eleď, er Itian Nëron, Aď.

Valec e, pro tësen diďen eř eglérec ab lerežen vuén,
Ä Meď Aďán, Donec Elirei, pro kion Almea eř estae.

🝮

Verdurian ‒ verse (sulirulî):

Ä zula selta, | selta cuelzulë
i so nëron brac | soán Řourisen Piron,
so͜ Oränise, so Nëron, | Iesu Krist so Benul.

Ya žannam zakatán | ci-telcen Ënomain,
Ya lelnam soa sula | selta vëčerei,
Nun eglérom Iain, | Eleď, er Itian
Nëron, Aď imanul, | an imanul Aď.

Valec e, nibkiam | er vremya eř eglérec,
ab lerežen vúen, | Elirei Donec,
Ä le Meď Aďán, | ket Almea estae.

Žescó.

🝮

Back translation of Verdurian verse translation:

Oh joyful light, light gathering joy,
of the holy glory of the Eternal Father,
the Heavenly, the Holy, Jesus Christ the Blessed.

We have come to the setting of this ‘elsewhere sun’,
We have seen the lone light of evening,
Now we praise Iáinos, Eleď and the Spirit
Holy, God united, one united God.

Worthy [it] is, anytime and thenceforth thee to praise,
with happy voices, of Life the Giver,
Oh, thou Son of God whom the world exalts.

Amen.

I'm just going to look at the verse translation. Your Verdurian is good, the problem is the alliteration. You really want to avoid alliterating on the same word.

sasasha wrote: ↑Fri Mar 29, 2024 6:39 pm Ä zula selta, | selta cuelzulë

Maybe "Ä syelë selta, cuelzulë (er) čistë"

i so nëron brac | soán Řourisen Piron,
so͜ Oränise, so Nëron, | Iesu Krist so Benul.

I'm not fond of the r/Cr alliteration... but you have Řourisen / Oränise with r, and brac / Krist with Cr. See if you can rearrange these?

Ya žannam zakatán | ci-telcen Ënomain,

How about orestán instead of telcan?

Ya lelnam soa sula | selta vëčerei,
Nun eglérom Iain, | Eleď, er Itian
Nëron, Aď imanul, | an imanul Aď.

Maybe perë / ireste ('whole / supreme')?

Valec e, nibkiam | er vremya eř eglérec,
ab lerežen vúen, | Elirei Donec,
Ä le Meď Aďán, | ket Almea estae.

No problems here!

zompist wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2024 6:12 pm I'm just going to look at the verse translation. Your Verdurian is good, the problem is the alliteration. You really want to avoid alliterating on the same word.

sasasha wrote: ↑Fri Mar 29, 2024 6:39 pm Ä zula selta, | selta cuelzulë

Maybe "Ä syelë selta, cuelzulë (er) čistë"

The original line is ambiguous as to whether it is referring to a celestial light or a candle, which would be nice to preserve. But perhaps ‘celestial’ might be used of a holy candle flame?

I’ll adopt your suggestion, though, for now.

i so nëron brac | soán Řourisen Piron,
so͜ Oränise, so Nëron, | Iesu Krist so Benul.

I'm not fond of the r/Cr alliteration... but you have Řourisen / Oränise with r, and brac / Krist with Cr. See if you can rearrange these?

Ok, maybe:

i so nëron brac | i Iesu Krist so Benul,
so Oränise, so Nëron, | so Řourise Piro.

Ya žannam zakatán | ci-telcen Ënomain,

How about orestán instead of telcan?

Ok, though isn’t it a bit odd for Eleďî to suggest that theirs is the ‘true’ sun? ... But perhaps it’s just a bit of vague flattery towards Ënomai.

Ya lelnam soa sula | selta vëčerei,
Nun eglérom Iain, | Eleď, er Itian
Nëron, Aď imanul, | an imanul Aď.

Maybe perë / ireste ('whole / supreme')?

In the last line of the quote? Like:

Nëron, Aď perë, | an ireste Aď.

I like that just fine!

To amalgamate your suggestions:

Ä syelë selta, | cuelzulë er čistë,
i so nëron brac | i Iesu Krist so Benul,
so Oränise, so Nëron, | so Řourise Piro.

Ya žannam zakatán | ci-orestán Ënomain,
Ya lelnam soa sula | selta vëčerei,
Nun eglérom Iain, | Eleď, er Itian
Nëron, Aď perë, | an ireste Aď.

Valec e, nibkiam | er vremya eř eglérec,
ab lerežen vúen, | Elirei Donec,
Ä le Meď Aďán, | ket Almea estae.

sasasha wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 2:47 am

How about orestán instead of telcan?

Ok, though isn’t it a bit odd for Eleďî to suggest that theirs is the ‘true’ sun? ... But perhaps it’s just a bit of vague flattery towards Ënomai.

Orest means 'true' but also 'loyal'. So it's aimed at Calto worshippers: look, the sun is not a god, but a loyal vassal of the real god.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 3:28 am

sasasha wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 2:47 am

How about orestán instead of telcan?

Ok, though isn’t it a bit odd for Eleďî to suggest that theirs is the ‘true’ sun? ... But perhaps it’s just a bit of vague flattery towards Ënomai.

Orest means 'true' but also 'loyal'. So it's aimed at Calto worshippers: look, the sun is not a god, but a loyal vassal of the real god.

Ah, ok, that makes sense!

Would it be strange to add ya in the last line (ket Almea ya estae) ‒ it’s not exactly a perfective meaning I’d be going for, but more the kind of intent that it will be perfective...?

sasasha wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 2:47 am Would it be strange to add ya in the last line (ket Almea ya estae) ‒ it’s not exactly a perfective meaning I’d be going for, but more the kind of intent that it will be perfective...?

Sure. I think it'd be taken as future perfect. (Also, don't tell the non-poets, but it's just the sort of word you can add for metrical reasons whether it's meaningful or not.)

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 3:11 am

sasasha wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 2:47 am Would it be strange to add ya in the last line (ket Almea ya estae) ‒ it’s not exactly a perfective meaning I’d be going for, but more the kind of intent that it will be perfective...?

Sure. I think it'd be taken as future perfect. (Also, don't tell the non-poets, but it's just the sort of word you can add for metrical reasons whether it's meaningful or not.)

Perfect. And don’t worry, ya secret’s safe with me.

I realised I had got the meaning a bit confused in the first stanza. It’s not Iesu Krist, the light, that is being described by the string of adjectives, but the Eternal Father from whom that light is emanating.

So I have reworked it a little, and swapped Benulán (‘blessed’) for Inyen (‘kind’) for mainly metrical reasons, thinking there is a semantic harmony to them although they have somewhat opposite meanings. I also tried swapping out sula for sfaisä (‘dutiful’) to extend the image zomp suggested re the sun, and the light in general which is being praised, being seen as loyal to God or a loyal part of God, rather than a deity in itself.

I think it’s seeming like a liturgical text now, and seems a plausible development of the Greek original adapted slightly to an Almean context... Though any more suggestions are gratefully received!

(Tiny query ‒ in some Verdurian texts, e.g. The Lord of the News, is to be found a punctuation mark transcribed as ⟨--⟩. Is this in general use? I’ve been avoiding our uses of dashes and plumping usually for a kešaš ‒ but this dash-like thing is probably useful! Does it have a name?)


Ä syelë selta

Ä syelë selta, | cuelzulë er čistë,
i so nëron brac-- | ä Iesu Krist-- soán Inyen,
Oränisen er Nëronán, | soán Řourisen Piron.

Ya žannam zakatán | ci-orestán Ënomain,
Ya lelnam soa sfaisä | selta vëčerei,
Nun eglérom Iain, | Eleď, er Itian
Nëron, Aď perë, | an ireste Aď.

Valec e, nibkiam | er vremya eř eglérec,
ab lerežen vúen, | Elirei Donec,
Ä le Meď Aďán, | ket Almea ya estae.

Žescó.

*

Literal translation:

O celestial light, effervescently joyous and pure,
of the holy glory ‒ O Jesus Christ ‒ of the Kind,
the Heavenly and Holy, the Immortal Father.

We have come to the setting of this loyal sun,
We have seen the dutiful light of evening,
Now we praise Iáinos, Eleď, and the Holy
Spirit, God entire, one supreme God.

Worthy it is, at any time and thenceforth, to praise Thee,
with happy voices, Giver of Life,
O Thou Son of God, whom all Almea shall exalt.

Amen.

I'll look at the text a bit later!

sasasha wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 3:52 am (Tiny query ‒ in some Verdurian texts, e.g. The Lord of the News, is to be found a punctuation mark transcribed as ⟨--⟩. Is this in general use? I’ve been avoiding our uses of dashes and plumping usually for a kešaš ‒ but this dash-like thing is probably useful! Does it have a name?)

Um, I'm afraid you'll have to take that as a kešaš. That's an old page, written pre-Unicode. The font does have a short dash but that's mostly so the text would look OK in very old texts, where I had the old typist's habit of using -- for a dash.

If you need more punctuation, I suggest looking at the computer encodings document on my Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/posts/character-87767943

Basically, anything that would have been available on an Eretaldan typewriter ended up in the encoding. There are a couple characters that might be of use-- the middle dot; also the semicolon. Unfortunately it's not in the font yet and I can't guarantee it will look like it does in the table. But you can assume there is something with the function of a semicolon.

Ok, great!

Another alternative arrangement for the first stanza:

Ä syelë selta, | cuelzulë er čistë,
i so nëron brac, | ä Iesu Krist, so Benul,
Oränise er Nëron, | soán Řourisen Piron.

Here so Benul, Oränise er Nëron refers to Iesu Krist, being also the selta, and the other phrase is reduced to ‘of the holy glory of the Eternal Father’.

OK, your Verdurian is correct!

As a reminder, this being poetry, you can rearrange words if necessary to fit the meter.

Subproject index
Episode 7: a spring knife

Diary of Kaidan Žambey
19 reli 3422 (zëden)

I dreamed that the Kebreni was knocking at my door and asking me to see the palaces of Šerian with him. We sang the song last night, which I suppose put ruined towers looming in my consciousness. When I came to, he was indeed knocking, yelping my name and rattling the latch – telling me that it was nearly 1h and my barge was about to leave.

“Why are you bothered… what happens to me?” I asked him, bleary-eyed at the door. He looked ready to walk to Téllinor (with his guitar), and possibly mad enough.

“Because we are zeveu,” he said, reminding me the word for ‘friend’ he had taught me last night.

“I barely know… well… but… oh, Calto… sire,” I mumbled, having flashbacks to shouting my other new linguistic acquisition, the Kebreni for ‘thank you’, in the dirty orange light of the heaving inn downstairs five, six, seven times…

“Get down to dock, you thanked me later.” I had noticed his speech patterns last night. If he really means something will happen, he tries to say it in the past, even though it hasn’t happened yet. Like he’s trying to cast a spell on it. “I travel with you,” he added.

“You travel with me… to the docks?” I said, chucking my last few things into my pack.

“No. To Verduria-city,” he said. And laughed. “Your sad boat is cheap.”

Despite his lessons I couldn’t remember his strange name and told him so as we left the inn at a lolloping run. “You can call me Zevy,” he said. “Like zeveu.” Well, that stuck in my mind, at least.

Zevy, it turned out, had already been down to see Gn Sfica and sorted out a fee for passage, on condition of labour unloading in Verdúria or no return. The men grunted at each other in the assent of two people who share a language only in the most marginal of senses. We had lost a couple of passengers in Šerian, so now there were six of us to mill around the boat all day getting in the sailors’ way. I watched Zevy practically fall in love with Mëfa on sight… whilst I exchanged a quick good morning with Virny, who then helped raise the mast and floated up it like a piza.

The morning was a spring knife, sharp but blossoming. I spent it on the benches talking with Zevy, watching Šerian disappear tower by tower, and letting pass by:

• the wide Verdurian Plain, saturated with pipeweed plantations;

• a heavy morning traffic of tall sails and streaming oars;

• distant draught teams dragging barges upstream in clouds of bells and moos;

• a set of light, damp squalls;

• a hangover;

• my sense of where I was, having never seen this bit of country before, for the first time since I left the Sönilec.

The river is noticeably wider here than back home. It’s starting to feel like the true rival to the sky which, I guess, it must eventually become.

It was strange to have a ‘friend’ on board. I have grown used, in the past few days, to feeling alone in the world – to being as unattached to the people around me as one of the barrels down below to its fellow cargo. It has been a kind of deep relief, a blankness. Zevy wanted to get to know me, which was getting in the way of my oblivion… Making me remember who I had had to run away from being. I spoke of Father and his way of being angry by being unbearably quiet. I spoke just a little of mother, and how we grew up. I spoke of Kutro and his assuredness that I would return for his birthday celebrations.

“Your brother is a lucky man to have a brother like you,” Zevy said. “But believe in him. When you return, he will… found his own way.”

Zevy shared a loaf of fresh bread with me, which he said he’d bought for us before he came to wake me up. (I’ve finished Baruto’s food. Sire, sire, sire.) I asked him a little about his family. He said conspicuously little, and we ate in silence for a while. This he cracked with a few old musicians’ jokes, and general silliness. It’s been a while since I’ve properly laughed.

There are two days until Ulian, and two more fameless small towns to spend my few remaining coins in – Zola and Cuendaya Kainei. (Though at least these will be a novelty to one who has only done the Šerian Bend on horseback, via Lažna.) I will ask in each for Como… small places are more likely to notice travellers… then face the dilemma of seeking him in Ulian. To what lengths do I go? Do I visit his family, his poisonous, stinking father? Do I try to meet with friends and acquaintances who may know something of him, but, unlike Zevy, also watched my disgrace unfold before me like a rotten stairway?

Do I even want to know where he has gone? Why he has not sent word to me? Why he did not come for me?

Perhaps Zevy’s casual company is better for me than chasing the kernel of my obsession. Oh, I miss his voice. His touch. His laugh.

I will write if I find him. Till then, adieu. I have a friend to make. And, I dare say, some coins to rattle up too, if we make a team for the taverns. And drink a little less next time.


Notes:

palaces of Šerian - Šerian (from Caď. ‘palace place’) was a winter retreat of the Caďinorian emperors, and contains some of the best-known Caďinorian ruins.

the song – a ballad of Ertala I was imagining a while back, known as The Silken Noose, which may begin in Šerian. (It incorrectly purports that Ertala hanged himself with his imperial sash; in fact, he poisoned himself.)

ready to walk to Téllinor – thousands of miles to Verduria’s west, Téllinor is legendarily impossible to reach on foot.

zeveu – Kebreni - n - friend

oh, Calto – Caloton, God of the Sun, one of the chief Caďin gods and commonly sworn by (in Verdurian "Ab Calton").

speech patterns – this may be overblown, but I don’t think Zevy has studied Verdurian grammar too well. His usage here is a confused calque of Kebreni operating with a perfective/imperfective aspect system but no morphological tense.

sire – Kebreni - soru - v - do, make, become (polite); Sire! Thank you (for your actions)!

Zevy – from Kebreni zeviḣ - little friend

mast… sails… oars… draught teams – the two masts of the Sešue Sariley can be lowered for bridges. It does not use oars, but a mixture of sail, rowing and towing is generally common in river travel, especially on difficult sections.

piza – fairy, pixie; a mythical race

benches – folding benches line the fore port and starboard edges of the barge, a small concession to passengers (who now, you may notice, number fewer than ten). Kaidan is aware of the barrels below perhaps because he is allowed to go down and drink from one of them as a condition of his passage... though he tries to avoid it.

Verdurian Plain – ‘Eretald’ means the Southern Plain and, properly, seems to have been separate from the northern Verdurian Plain. However, Eretald has broadened to signify the entire region, whilst Verduria has (obviously) broadened to refer to the polity centred on the northern plain.

mother, and how we grew up – Kaidan and Kutro's mother, Lereže Řescörei Tire, died in childbirth with Kutro. Their father (printer Vuraneon Žambey) left care of Kutro largely to Kaidan, nine years his senior – along with, of course, servants such as Baruto in their modest yet still noble household.

old musicians’ jokes – Zomp provided one by email, which I hope he doesn't mind me sharing.
Šerian Bend - an unattested term, but the ins and outs of stretches of the rivers would probably acquire names, personalities, customs etc. Kaidan has mentioned already that, on previous trips when he had less money and more time, he cut out the slight bend in the river between Šerian and Ulian by travelling overland on horseback.

*

Personal note: perhaps a bit of a filler in that there’s nothing to listen to here; but I needed to break my block and move on! I'll probably skip forwards a bit, I was getting bogged down feeling he needed to write an entry a day. Still, enjoyed writing it! PS the notes are trying to hit a mixture of audiences, e.g. people who know about Almea, and people like my mum, who doesn't. And also, me, to help me remember something I need to flesh out or somesuch. Sorry if that makes them seem a bit confused in tone. :p

Some quick reactions...

sasasha wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 8:00 am There are two days until Ulian, and two more fameless small towns to spend my few remaining coins in – Zola and Cuendaya Kainei.

I forget if I told you the metanarrative about the latter town, but it has a slight reputation for good keyboardists.

Zevy – from Kebreni zeviḣ - little friend

Aren't the Žambeî from Žésifo? If so, Kaidan is likely to pronounce his h's, and hear the Kebreni word as Zevih.

(But there's room for Zevy if you like that. The Kebreni may leave out the ḣ himself out of long experience that Verdurians don't hear or pronounce it.)

The economic idea is... this barge carries mostly end-to-end cargo from Cerei to Verdúria-city. It operates because the Xazengri trade brings goods to Cerei which are best sold in Verdúria. It’s unusual in routinely taking the long journeys along the whole river, and it's cheap to board as a passenger, because it stops each night, so as an upshot passengers (about 10 max, from whom it derives a meagre additional income) can stay in town. This helps it maintain a skeleton crew, stops it running into danger by sailing all night, and allows a bit of extra business to be done if the hold is not filled at either end.

I don't see any problems here. Trade is probably Verduria-city-centric: merchants in each city want to go directly to Verduria-city. Not universally, but enough that a direct connection is quite possible. But there's also some inter-city trade depending on specializations.

That is, you probably don't ship wheat or pigs from Zariaspa to Beluana. Everyone's got wheat and pigs. But there are always going to be local specialties and those get more valuable the farther you take them. I think we went over this before, but Cerei was where Xurnese trade routes ended, so Cereians do have something everyone else wants. Also probably horses, though I guess those wouldn't go by boat!

Verdurian Plain – ‘Eretald’ means the Southern Plain and, properly, seems to have been separate from the northern Verdurian Plain. However, Eretald has broadened to signify the entire region, whilst Verduria has (obviously) broadened to refer to the polity centred on the northern plain.

Not quite right. The Caďin assigned people to the four directions: Cuzeians to the west, Meťaiun to the north, Munkhâsh to the east, leaving themselves in the south. This made rough sense as late as imperial times. AERESTALDOS at first mean the Caďin parts of the Plain, but by imperial times was equated with Cuêzi Cēradānar... i.e. the region between the mountains. So the Etald Verdúran is just a subset.

The central portion of the Plain needs a name... it was once Caďinas, then I think Elcaďinas, or by metonymy, Ctesifon. Nowadays perhaps soa caďina pironáe.

Kaidan has mentioned already that, on previous trips when he had less money and more time, he cut out the slight bend in the river between Šerian and Ulian by travelling overland on horseback.

Hmm, that would surprise me. I'd expect it to cost more to rent a horse than a space on a boat. What would be cheaper is cadging a ride on a farmer's wagon.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 4:15 pm Some quick reactions...

sasasha wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 8:00 am There are two days until Ulian, and two more fameless small towns to spend my few remaining coins in – Zola and Cuendaya Kainei.

I forget if I told you the metanarrative about the latter town, but it has a slight reputation for good keyboardists.

Ah! You mentioned its name being related to the magazine but I don’t remember if there was more. What was it about keyboardists? I decided in the end that I won’t skip the next two days anyway ‒ perfect chance to lay out the modal system while we’ve got both a Verdurian- and a Kebreni-speaking musician together on a river-boat ‒ so any details about C.K. (or Zola!) gratefully received!

Zevy – from Kebreni zeviḣ - little friend

Aren't the Žambeî from Žésifo? If so, Kaidan is likely to pronounce his h's, and hear the Kebreni word as Zevih.

(But there's room for Zevy if you like that. The Kebreni may leave out the ḣ himself out of long experience that Verdurians don't hear or pronounce it.)

They are, but, exactly, yes! I was thinking the latter. It’s like a pet name that he has previously found that Verdurians can easily pronounce ‒ and he’s spent most of his time in Verduria-city, as we’re going to find out...

The economic idea is... this barge carries mostly end-to-end cargo from Cerei to Verdúria-city. It operates because the Xazengri trade brings goods to Cerei which are best sold in Verdúria. It’s unusual in routinely taking the long journeys along the whole river, and it's cheap to board as a passenger, because it stops each night, so as an upshot passengers (about 10 max, from whom it derives a meagre additional income) can stay in town. This helps it maintain a skeleton crew, stops it running into danger by sailing all night, and allows a bit of extra business to be done if the hold is not filled at either end.

I don't see any problems here. Trade is probably Verduria-city-centric: merchants in each city want to go directly to Verduria-city. Not universally, but enough that a direct connection is quite possible. But there's also some inter-city trade depending on specializations.

That is, you probably don't ship wheat or pigs from Zariaspa to Beluana. Everyone's got wheat and pigs. But there are always going to be local specialties and those get more valuable the farther you take them. I think we went over this before, but Cerei was where Xurnese trade routes ended, so Cereians do have something everyone else wants. Also probably horses, though I guess those wouldn't go by boat!

Excellent! Glad to have agreed on a model for this.

The Almeopedia article on Xazen talks about the most common historical trade goods: “Typical exports from Eretald were wine, weapons, silk, tobacco, and olive oil; from Xengiman, gold, linen, lace, perfumes, medicines, and hard cider.” It also says spring is the season for the Xazengri trade as that’s when the Xazen and other rivers in the route are deep enough.

Verdurian Plain – ‘Eretald’ means the Southern Plain and, properly, seems to have been separate from the northern Verdurian Plain. However, Eretald has broadened to signify the entire region, whilst Verduria has (obviously) broadened to refer to the polity centred on the northern plain.

Not quite right. The Caďin assigned people to the four directions: Cuzeians to the west, Meťaiun to the north, Munkhâsh to the east, leaving themselves in the south. This made rough sense as late as imperial times. AERESTALDOS at first mean the Caďin parts of the Plain, but by imperial times was equated with Cuêzi Cēradānar... i.e. the region between the mountains. So the Etald Verdúran is just a subset.

The central portion of the Plain needs a name... it was once Caďinas, then I think Elcaďinas, or by metonymy, Ctesifon. Nowadays perhaps soa caďina pironáe.

Ah, thanks for the catch there! I’ll edit the post (tomorrow!!!).

As for the central portion of the Plain, it strikes me that it’s less, er, plain than the rest of it. Soa caďina pironáe is nice and makes sense whatever, but the region’s name could arguably be something to do with ‘hills’ as much as something to do with a ‘plain’. Do the hills around Ctésifon/Curesi have a name that could give a name to that region?

Kaidan has mentioned already that, on previous trips when he had less money and more time, he cut out the slight bend in the river between Šerian and Ulian by travelling overland on horseback.

Hmm, that would surprise me. I'd expect it to cost more to rent a horse than a space on a boat. What would be cheaper is cadging a ride on a farmer's wagon.

Oops! I meant more money and less time.

sasasha wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 5:18 pm Ah! You mentioned its name being related to the magazine but I don’t remember if there was more. What was it about keyboardists? I decided in the end that I won’t skip the next two days anyway ‒ perfect chance to lay out the modal system while we’ve got both a Verdurian- and a Kebreni-speaking musician together on a river-boat ‒ so any details about C.K. (or Zola!) gratefully received!

I'll look at my notes but I'm afraid there's very little there.

As for the central portion of the Plain, it strikes me that it’s less, er, plain than the rest of it. Soa caďina pironáe is nice and makes sense whatever, but the region’s name could arguably be something to do with ‘hills’ as much as something to do with a ‘plain’. Do the hills around Ctésifon/Curesi have a name that could give a name to that region?

Yeah, I think the region could be called the elcaďinî cimî.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 7:13 pm I'll look at my notes but I'm afraid there's very little there.

No worries ‒ you mentioned keyboardists ‒ I thought C.K. was a truckers’ magazine, am I missing something here?

Yeah, I think the region could be called the elcaďinî cimî.

Sounds good. I wonder if it would then just still get called Elcaďinas, perhaps.

While we’re here, a couple of questions that might help me out:

1. How do you go about coining Kebreni personal names? I can see an amount of -um, and -ec for women, applied to normal lexemes. Can you just use any word in the dictionary, or is there more to it, and are suffixes common/obligatory/optional...? Without having made a big list of Kebreni names I thought it would be easier to ask.

2. Any notes/ideas on what happened to Getemil Onvaďre? He would be 16 in 3422, and last we heard (from the Almeopedia article on Onvaďra) he was arrested in 3420 on the death of his mother.

As we’re headed to Verduria-city in time for the second imdaluát of King Vläran, and two years seems potentially a long time for a youngish teenager to be arrested, I’m wondering if there’ll be some interest/gossip/drama involving what happens to him going around Verduria-city when we get there.