Zompist Bboard Again

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 3:41 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 3:27 pmRegardless of the imperfect reliability of Wiktionary, in many cases it is much more reliable than wildly throwing about things like 'Eurasiatic' and 'Paleo-European'.

As I said before, there're nothing more than useful labels for classifying words, not Frankestein-like entities based on the std PIE model.

So the products of extensive reconstructive efforts by professional linguists are "Frankenstein-like entities", but your own random 'roots' that you throw together with very little substantiation are reliable?

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 3:41 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 3:39 pmSo Gran Diccionari de la Llengua Catalana is a "secondary and unreliable source", but whatever Eurasiatic 'roots' you pull out of thin air are reliable? Yeah.

AFAIK, there's no Basque correspondence for this word.

Take that up with the authors of Gran Diccionari de la Llengua Catalana.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 3:43 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 3:41 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 3:27 pmRegardless of the imperfect reliability of Wiktionary, in many cases it is much more reliable than wildly throwing about things like 'Eurasiatic' and 'Paleo-European'.

As I said before, there're nothing more than useful labels for classifying words, not Frankestein-like entities based on the std PIE model.

So the products of extensive reconstructive efforts by professional linguists are "Frankenstein-like entities", but your own random 'roots' that you throw together with very little substantiation are reliable?

I call them so because these "professional linguists" assume (wrongly IMHO) they were actual languages spoken by real people and not mere theoretical linguistic constructs. And positing a "Proto-Nostratic" or "Proro-Eurasiatic" language only amplifies the problem ten times.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 3:43 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 3:41 pmAFAIK, there's no Basque correspondence for this word.

Take that up with the authors of Gran Diccionari de la Llengua Catalana.

GDLC has nothing to do with Basque. You'd better consult Orotariko Euskal Hiztegia (OEH).

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 4:00 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 3:43 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 3:41 pm As I said before, there're nothing more than useful labels for classifying words, not Frankestein-like entities based on the std PIE model.

So the products of extensive reconstructive efforts by professional linguists are "Frankenstein-like entities", but your own random 'roots' that you throw together with very little substantiation are reliable?

I call them so because these "professional linguists" assume (wrongly IMHO) they were actual languages spoken by real people and not mere theoretical linguistic constructs. And positing a "Proto-Nostratic" or "Proro-Eurasiatic" language only amplifies the problem ten times.

Nostraticists are a fringe minority, and just because they exist does not mean that PIE is invalid by any means.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 4:00 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 3:43 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 3:41 pmAFAIK, there's no Basque correspondence for this word.

Take that up with the authors of Gran Diccionari de la Llengua Catalana.

GDLC has nothing to do with Basque. You'd better consult Orotariko Euskal Hiztegia (OEH).

Um I used your dictionary of choice and found this...

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 4:10 pmNostraticists are a fringe minority, and just because they exist does not mean that PIE is invalid by any means.

PIE is a theoretical language construct which needs to be analyzed and dissected in order to identify its underlying structure.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 3:43 pmUm I used your dictionary of choice and found this...

This is a completely different word: Spanish guinda 'sour cherry'.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 4:18 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 4:10 pmNostraticists are a fringe minority, and just because they exist does not mean that PIE is invalid by any means.

PIE is a theoretical language construct which needs to be analyzed and dissected in order to identify its underlying structure.

A position you use to cheerfully throw just about anything reconstructed w.r.t. PIE into the garbage on a whim.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 4:18 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 3:43 pmUm I used your dictionary of choice and found this...

This is a completely different word: Spanish guinda 'sour cherry'.

It's closer than what you posit! And remember the tendency of fruit-words to change meaning per our very discussion earlier in this thread. It's a much shorter jump between 'sour cherry' and 'red raspberry' than it is between 'red raspberry' and 'pear' anyways.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 4:24 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 4:18 pmPIE is a theoretical language construct which needs to be analyzed and dissected in order to identify its underlying structure.

A position you use to cheerfully throw just about anything reconstructed w.r.t. PIE into the garbage on a whim.

Sorry, but I don't do anything of the kind (see for example my own etymology of thálassa).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 4:24 pmIt's closer than what you posit! And remember the tendency of fruit-words to change meaning per our very discussion earlier in this thread. It's a much shorter jump between 'sour cherry' and 'red raspberry' than it is between 'red raspberry' and 'pear' anyways.

Spanish guinda has nothing to do with Catalan gerd and the like.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 4:28 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 4:24 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 4:18 pmPIE is a theoretical language construct which needs to be analyzed and dissected in order to identify its underlying structure.

A position you use to cheerfully throw just about anything reconstructed w.r.t. PIE into the garbage on a whim.

Sorry, but I don't do anything of the kind (see for example my own etymology of thálassa).

If thálassa is IE then I would look to, say, Luwian, even though there is always the chance that even Luwian got it from a substrate.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 4:28 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 4:24 pmIt's closer than what you posit! And remember the tendency of fruit-words to change meaning per our very discussion earlier in this thread. It's a much shorter jump between 'sour cherry' and 'red raspberry' than it is between 'red raspberry' and 'pear' anyways.

Spanish guinda has nothing to do with Catalan gerd and the like.

If both come from Vasco-Aquitanian what is the chance that the meanings drifted apart over the centuries. Of course, it seems that guinda may actually be from a Germanic rather than Basque source, which would mean that this may be false.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 4:53 pmIf thálassa is IE then I would look to, say, Luwian, even though there is always the chance that even Luwian got it from a substrate.

Why Luwian? Thracian would be a more likely candidate, athough it's a poorly attested language.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 4:53 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 4:28 pmSpanish guinda has nothing to do with Catalan gerd and the like.

If both come from Vasco-Aquitanian what is the chance that the meanings drifted apart over the centuries. Of course, it seems that guinda may actually be from a Germanic rather than Basque source, which would mean that this may be false.

Of course it is, because phonetics doesn't match either.

Of course, since Catalan gerd has only been attested relatively recently, it could be a shift in meaning from, say, dialectal Basque girda for 'sour cherry' to Catalan gerd 'red raspberry' even if the Basque itself is originally from a Germanic source.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 5:12 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 4:53 pmIf thálassa is IE then I would look to, say, Luwian, even though there is always the chance that even Luwian got it from a substrate.

Why Luwian? Thracian would be a more likely candidate, athough it's a poorly attested language.

Because much of the IE component of Pre-Greek substrate is though to be specifically Luwian in origin.

Edit: Okay, I have now read some things casting doubt on whether it was specifically Luwian, but there is without a doubt a very significant Anatolian component to the Pre-Greek substrate.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 5:13 pmOf course, since Catalan gerd has only been attested relatively recently, it could be a shift in meaning from, say, dialectal Basque girda for 'sour cherry' to Catalan gerd 'red raspberry' even if the Basque itself is originally from a Germanic source.

That's highly unlikely, because they're also the derivated forms gerdó, jordó, Gascon jordon, Aragonese chordón, churdón, so the most parsimonious hypothesis is this is a substrate loanword.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 5:17 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 5:12 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 4:53 pmIf thálassa is IE then I would look to, say, Luwian, even though there is always the chance that even Luwian got it from a substrate.

Why Luwian? Thracian would be a more likely candidate, athough it's a poorly attested language.

Because much of the IE component of Pre-Greek substrate is thought to be specifically Luwian in origin.

But would sound correspondences match? Luwian has voiceless aspirated stops from PIE plain voiceless ones?

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 5:29 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 5:13 pmOf course, since Catalan gerd has only been attested relatively recently, it could be a shift in meaning from, say, dialectal Basque girda for 'sour cherry' to Catalan gerd 'red raspberry' even if the Basque itself is originally from a Germanic source.

That's highly unlikely, because they're also the derivated forms gerdó, jordó, Gascon jordon, Aragonese chordón, churdón, so the most parsimonious hypothesis is this is a substrate loanword.

And what substrate (and don't say 'Eurasiatic' or 'Paleo-European') is most likely to impact Catalan, Gascon, and Aragonese... hmm... and don't say it couldn't be Basque just because a Basque dictionary does not list gird-.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 5:29 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 5:17 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 5:12 pm Why Luwian? Thracian would be a more likely candidate, athough it's a poorly attested language.

Because much of the IE component of Pre-Greek substrate is thought to be specifically Luwian in origin.

But would sound correspondences match? Luwian has voiceless aspirated stops from PIE plain voiceless ones?

Luwian has two series of stop phonemes, a 'fortis' series and a 'lenis' series that are thought to have been geminate and non-geminate respectively. But things like phonemic aspiration can change in the process of borrowing -- e.g. English lacks aspirated stop phonemes but has phonetic aspirated stops in certain positions.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 5:36 pmLuwian has two series of stop phonemes, a 'fortis' series and a 'lenis' series that are thought to have been geminate and non-geminate respectively. But things like phonemic aspiration can change in the process of borrowing -- e.g. English lacks aspirated stop phonemes but has phonetic aspirated stops in certain positions.

BTW, the source of the Luwian word for 'iron', which spread as a Wanderwort into Akkadian barzillum, parzillum and Italic *fersom > Latin ferrum (presumably through Etruscan, because the Villanova culture introduced the metal in Italy) would be PIE *bherHg'- 'to shine', quoted by Mallory-Adams.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 5:36 pmAnd what substrate (and don't say 'Eurasiatic' or 'Paleo-European') is most likely to impact Catalan, Gascon, and Aragonese... hmm... and don't say it couldn't be Basque just because a Basque dictionary does not list gird-.

Basque is a modern attested language, not a substrate. But if the word has a PIE etymology, then it should be an IE language.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 3:23 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 3:00 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 2:21 pmNot at all. I find his explanations make a lot more sense than yours.

Really? A Turkic loanword into Ancient Greek and a non-existent Basque word into Romance?

Turkic loanwords into Ancient Greek are perfectly plausible given the Turkic presence around the Black Sea (and the fact that the Turkic word transparently means 'pear' and has been loaned into other languages around the Black Sea with this meaning such as Chechen, Ossetian, and Ingush), and Gran Diccionari de la Llengua Catalana states that the source of Catalan gerd is likely Vasco-Aquitanian gĭrd-.

There was no Turkic anywhere near Greece in antiquity, so I consider it not very likely that a Turkic word ended up in Ancient Greek (Modern Greek is another matter entirely; that is of course full of Turkic loanwords, no wonder after 400 years of Ottoman rule over Greece). The Scythians spoke an Iranian language, not a Turkic one; though there is a slim chance that Scythian borrowed words from (Pre-)Proto-Turkic, and Greek from Scythian.

Unfortunately finding quality information about the history of Turkic in relation to the Scythians is difficult because you get dogpiled by Turkish nationalism and one or two flavours of racism, but suffice it to say it seems like the idea of Turkic loans in Iranian languages does not seem to be controversial.

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2026 10:14 am Unfortunately finding quality information about the history of Turkic in relation to the Scythians is difficult because you get dogpiled by Turkish nationalism and one or two flavours of racism, but suffice it to say it seems like the idea of Turkic loans in Iranian languages does not seem to be controversial.

And of course, a Turkic loan with the meaning of 'pear' is attested in Ossetian. (Of course, that by itself says nothing about the antiquity of such a loan, as for these lexemes to be Turkic loans in Ancient Greek and Macedonian the Turkic influence would have to be quite old.)

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2026 5:35 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2026 5:25 pm (IMHO, PIE likely is a Para-Uralic language modified by a Para-NW-Caucasian substratum.)

The only problem with that is that practically all PIE-PU 'cognates' turn out to be loans, and generally from subbranches of IE (such as PII or PGmc) rather than PIE proper.

Uralic *nakrV 'cedar nut' ~ IE *agr- > Celtic *agriniā (Old Irish áirne, Welsh eirin), Gaulish *agranio- 'sole, fruit of the blackthorn', Germanic *akarna-/*akrana-/*akirna- 'acorn', Latin agresta 'green grape', agrestis and Greek ágrios 'wild', doesn't look as a loanword.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2026 3:47 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2026 5:35 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2026 5:25 pm (IMHO, PIE likely is a Para-Uralic language modified by a Para-NW-Caucasian substratum.)

The only problem with that is that practically all PIE-PU 'cognates' turn out to be loans, and generally from subbranches of IE (such as PII or PGmc) rather than PIE proper.

Uralic *nakrV 'cedar nut' ~ IE *agr- > Celtic *agriniā (Old Irish áirne, Welsh eirin), Gaulish *agranio- 'sole, fruit of the blackthorn', Germanic *akarna-/*akrana-/*akirna- 'acorn', Latin agresta 'green grape', agrestis and Greek ágrios 'wild', doesn't look as a loanword.

What is your source linking the Uralic and the IE here (and don't say Starostin, because Starostin is known for shoddy long-distance etymologies)?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2026 3:58 pmWhat is your source linking the Uralic and the IE here (and don't say Starostin, because Starostin is known for shoddy long-distance etymologies)?

It's myself.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2026 4:20 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2026 3:58 pmWhat is your source linking the Uralic and the IE here (and don't say Starostin, because Starostin is known for shoddy long-distance etymologies)?

It's myself.

Do you have established comparanda between IE and Uralic that substantiate loss of initial nasals found in Uralic in comparable IE words, and Uralic *k > IE *g?

Edit: Or conversely, as it is probably more likely that if there is any connection between IE and Uralic it is in the direction of IE to Uralic, do you have any evidence of prothetic nasals and IE *g > Uralic *k?