Zompist Bboard Again

Well, Old Wenthish is up to 507 verbs now, with a few more to come. It's astonishing/disheartening to realise what a tiny fraction of the necessary vocabulary of a language this still is...

It is, however, almost certainly the largest vocabulary any of my conlangs has had at a single time. [i tend to continually redevelop them, so that I never have time to have much vocabulary in any of them, particularly since I tend to be more interested in grammar than vocabulary]

It contains such gems of invention as sittena (to sit), sendena (to send), and saltena (to salt)... genius, that's what it is.



(also smuirthriena (to emit dark, cloying smoke), gauāna (to move back and forward in the wind), ādahlahhena (to defy), pecthiggena (to sin), firithāssena (to pull through an aperture), foreuānnōna (to lament a foreseeable future tragedy), and fneosena, (to sneeze)).

It seems like -ena is a productive morphological suffix.

I think that's just proto-Germanic /-aną/, the infinitive ending, ancestor of German -en. There was only one declension .

Ælfwine wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:12 pm It seems like -ena is a productive morphological suffix.

Funny that...

(although I guess it isn't - I guess it's two suffixes, -e- and -na, the former being a thematic vowel, found in all vowels except the Class C verbs like foreuānnōna)

Rkou people live on Grawgdaw mountain ranges, where the climate here is subtropic, despite the proximity to equator (Like Mexico City). It has similiar latitude and altitude to Mexico City. Despite Rkou people (an orcish race) are pretty resistant to cold, is it realistic for the males of that race shirtless all the time, despite single-digit temperature (still above 4*C) at winter. Also is it possible that that place remains snowless except during worst winter? I want a cold but not freezing place for Rkou people, warm enough to make shirtless comfortable, but cold enough to make contrast with (unnamed empire, so for now I name it Asent'o (it is language name, not a empire name)), which is clearly tropic.

I used to jog around in a t-shirt and shorts all the time in subfreezing weather. The mitochondria of the cell will burn fat to heat the body, so if these orcs have sufficiently decoupled mitochondria, going bare-chested in winter weather won't be a problem. But mitochondria are evolutionarily very ancient .... older even than the division between male and female. Therefore, the female orcs will produce just as much body heat.

Snowless winters seem ok but it's complicated ... I'll try to explain more later if nobody else does.

There are studies indicating a heat difference between human males and females, so there is (some) logic to what Akanga wrote.

If the climate is similar to that of Mexico City, then it won't get much below 15C in winter (average 'low' there dips under 10, but of course that's at night, when bedding is more important than clothing...). So it would be perfectly comfortable for a human not to wear clothes most of the year, or all the year indoors, and to maybe throw on a warm cloak if it's windy outside in the middle of winter and they're going for a stroll. [remember, most of the time pre-modern people were forced to be outdoors in the cold, they'd be doing heavy labour, which warms you up intensely...]

Human male toplessness is probably common historically in most of the world, even some quite cold areas. Celts and germans in central europe did wear tunics, but also seem (to this layman's eyes) to have frequently been topless, or worn only a cloak, particularly in warlike contexts; the maori in new zealand at first contact seem to have been depicted as mostly topless too, with cloaks for formal and status-showing dress. Notably, both celts and maori placed emphasis on male body art, which presumably implies at least frequent toplessness, if not constant - there's no point having elaborate, status-displaying tattoos or body paint if nobody knows you have them.

Then there are the Wastek, of northeastern Mexico (so presumably colder than mexico city), who are said to have been the only society to develop civilisation without developing any clothing (beyond status-displaying jewellary). I don't know if that's known to have been true, but presumably they must at the very least have been pretty naked a lot of the time in order for everyone to have developed the belief that they never had any clothes.

So yes, this should be no problem at all. More specifically: Aztec peasants appear (to this layman, going by pictures) to have been topless, with most of the higher classes wearing little more than a loosely-bound cloak. And Aztecs lived in Mexico city.

What's more, your people aren't even human - we don't know how much fat they have, or what their skin is like. Orks are often depicted as 'overweight' (suggesting more fat than humans) and with leathery skin (ie thicker than humans'), both of which would make them better-adapted to cold climates. [at the extreme of this continuum, consider seals, which wear no clothes and have only very short fur, but can live happily in arctic waters that would kill humans in minutes]


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On men vs women: it is common for male and female clothing to differ, and indeed many societies are more accepting of topless males than of topless females, for reasons unrelated to thermodynamics. Some societies place a taboo on the female chest area, which can be seen as in some way a 'sexual' area, and hence not to be seen by the young; as a result, some societies for ritual reasons require all or part of the female torso to be covered in most public contexts, even where this is not thermodynamically necessitated.

@Salmoneus

Thanks. Your answer also answer one question about why Orcs still don't wear clothes even if humans that live in lower altitude (hence hotter) almost always wearing clothes. Grawgdaw are one of the hottest place that is filled by Orcs. Hotter than that, the place is filled by humans. Orcs feels Grawgdaw's temperature like human would feel of Indonesia.

Also thank you that you don't bring up yaghan, because their lifestyle is very different. (Yaghan are a hunter-gatherer society. Orcs here is actually civilized, with agriculture and city, etc. Asent'o may called them barbaric, but Orcs is less barbaric than Viking)

I just want to avoid Exposed to the Elements trope except it is realistic enough. (When you wear little clothing even if you're in a blizzard)

I am a naturally skinny person who grew up in a hot desert in California, but during the winter I lived in Alaska I adapted to the cold pretty well. Days above about 10 F/-12 C were T shirt days for me, meaning I could be outside comfortably in T shirt, jeans, socks and work boots. If your orcs are otherwise adapted to the cold so that what most humans consider cold is quite hot for them then they could absolutely go around without tops.

I have most of my verb structure for my first polysynthetic language, Venusian, but almost no roots to speak of at this stage. Also, I’m not sure how I should go about deriving participles or verbal nouns, or even if I should.

Here’s the extent of the morphological and phonological sketch I have:

Phonetic inventory:
p t̪ ʈ k q ʔ
pʰ t̪ʰ ʈʰ kʰ qʰ
f θ s ɕ x X h
t͡s t͡ɕ
t͡sʰ t͡ɕʰ
m n̪ ɳ ŋ
l̪ ɭ r ʀ
w j

i ɛ ɑ u
ĩ ɛ̃ ɑ̃ ũ

Phonotactics:
Syllable: (C)(C)V(ʔ/h)
Assimilation of sibilants and dentals to following retroflex consonants’ POA
Assimilation of velars and uvulars to the POA of the following dorsal
Assimilation of vowel nasality rightward across /ʔ/, /h/, or hiatus
/l̪ ɭ/ become /n̪ ɳ/ respectively after a nasal vowel
Allophonic voicing of unaspirated obstruents after a nasal vowel

Grammar & morphology:
Polysynthetic typology - noun incorporation, polypersonal agreement on verb, adverb incorporation/derivation, compound derivation in independent nominals, multiple-voice system
4 noun classes - third-person affixes on verbs, dual & plural morphemes on independent nominals and on verbs, and independent pronouns/deictics all reflect noun class distinctions
Ergative-absolutive alignment - intransitive subject and transitive patient share same slot on the verb, whereas transitive agent occupies different slot

Verb structure:
1: (negative affix)
2: (adverbial affix(es) - manner, additional aspect distinctions, etc.)
3: (incorporated noun(s) - can be multiple nouns; order is locative-indirect object-instrumental-direct object)
4: tense-aspect complex affix
5: mood affix - indicative, subjunctive, optative, conditional-potential
6: voice affix - active, antipassive, applicative, reflexive
7: root
8: intransitive subject/transitive patient affix (“argument #1”)
9. (transitive agent affix (“argument #2”))

——

Tense-aspect:
.......|imperfective|perfective|stative|iterative|habitual
past...|-nɑ-........|-si-......|-nu-...|-siʔi-...|-nani-
present|-mɛ-........|-(zero)-..|-mu-...|-ʔi-.....|-ni-
future.|-qɑ-........|-qu-......|-tʰi-..|-quʔi-...|-qani-
gnomic.|-ɛ-.........|-sɛ-......|-nɛ-...|-sɛʔi-...|-nɛi-

Mood:
indicative.|-(zero)-
subjunctive|-jɛ-
optative...|-mi-
cond./pot..|-kɑ̃-

Voice:
...........|class I|class II|class III|class IV
active.....|.............-(zero)-..............
antipassive|-kʰɛ̃-..|-kʰũ-...|.......-hɑ-.......
applicative|..............-t͡si-................
reflexive..|......-mɛ̃-......|.......-ɑ-........
(plus derivational morphology for causatives and other valency-increasing operations)

Argument #1 personal affixes:
1sg: -ti-
2sg: -u-
Class I 3sg: -kɛ-
Class II 3sg: -kɑ-
Class III 3sg: -i-
Class IV 3sg: -t͡ɕɛ-
1du: -usɛ-
2du: -usu-
Class I/II 3du: -kʰɑʔ-
Class III/IV 3du: -kʰiʔ-
1pl: -psi-
2pl: -su-
Class I/II 3pl: -ɭɑ-
Class III/IV 3pl: -ru-

Argument #2 personal affixes:
1sg: -hi-
2sg: -hu-
Class I 3sg: -kɛ̃-
Class II 3sg: -kɑ̃-
Class III 3sg: -tĩ-
Class IV 3sg: -t͡ɕʰɛ̃-
1du: -hisɛ-
2du: -husu-
Class I/II 3du: -ksɑ̃-
Class III/IV 3du: -ksĩ-
1pl: -psĩ-
2pl: -sũ-
Class I/II 3pl: -ɭɛ̃-
Class III/IV 3pl: -rũ-

In addition, I’ve come up with an alphabetic writing system, but the picture files are too big to attach here.

Elizabeth K. wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:11 pm I have most of my verb structure for my first polysynthetic language, Venusian, but almost no roots to speak of at this stage. Also, I’m not sure how I should go about deriving participles or verbal nouns, or even if I should.

Here’s the extent of the morphological and phonological sketch I have:

Phonetic inventory:
p t̪ ʈ k q ʔ
pʰ t̪ʰ ʈʰ kʰ qʰ
f θ s ɕ x X h
t͡s t͡ɕ
t͡sʰ t͡ɕʰ
m n̪ ɳ ŋ
l̪ ɭ r ʀ
w j

i ɛ ɑ u
ĩ ɛ̃ ɑ̃ ũ

Phonotactics:
Syllable: (C)(C)V(ʔ/h)
Assimilation of sibilants and dentals to following retroflex consonants’ POA
Assimilation of velars and uvulars to the POA of the following dorsal
Assimilation of vowel nasality rightward across /ʔ/, /h/, or hiatus
/l̪ ɭ/ become /n̪ ɳ/ respectively after a nasal vowel
Allophonic voicing of unaspirated obstruents after a nasal vowel

Grammar & morphology:
Polysynthetic typology - noun incorporation, polypersonal agreement on verb, adverb incorporation/derivation, compound derivation in independent nominals, multiple-voice system
4 noun classes - third-person affixes on verbs, dual & plural morphemes on independent nominals and on verbs, and independent pronouns/deictics all reflect noun class distinctions
Ergative-absolutive alignment - intransitive subject and transitive patient share same slot on the verb, whereas transitive agent occupies different slot

Verb structure:
1: (negative affix)
2: (adverbial affix(es) - manner, additional aspect distinctions, etc.)
3: (incorporated noun(s) - can be multiple nouns; order is locative-indirect object-instrumental-direct object)
4: tense-aspect complex affix
5: mood affix - indicative, subjunctive, optative, conditional-potential
6: voice affix - active, antipassive, applicative, reflexive
7: root
8: intransitive subject/transitive patient affix (“argument #1”)
9. (transitive agent affix (“argument #2”))

——

Tense-aspect:
.......|imperfective|perfective|stative|iterative|habitual
past...|-nɑ-........|-si-......|-nu-...|-siʔi-...|-nani-
present|-mɛ-........|-(zero)-..|-mu-...|-ʔi-.....|-ni-
future.|-qɑ-........|-qu-......|-tʰi-..|-quʔi-...|-qani-
gnomic.|-ɛ-.........|-sɛ-......|-nɛ-...|-sɛʔi-...|-nɛi-

Mood:
indicative.|-(zero)-
subjunctive|-jɛ-
optative...|-mi-
cond./pot..|-kɑ̃-

Voice:
...........|class I|class II|class III|class IV
active.....|.............-(zero)-..............
antipassive|-kʰɛ̃-..|-kʰũ-...|.......-hɑ-.......
applicative|..............-t͡si-................
reflexive..|......-mɛ̃-......|.......-ɑ-........
(plus derivational morphology for causatives and other valency-increasing operations)

Argument #1 personal affixes:
1sg: -ti-
2sg: -u-
Class I 3sg: -kɛ-
Class II 3sg: -kɑ-
Class III 3sg: -i-
Class IV 3sg: -t͡ɕɛ-
1du: -usɛ-
2du: -usu-
Class I/II 3du: -kʰɑʔ-
Class III/IV 3du: -kʰiʔ-
1pl: -psi-
2pl: -su-
Class I/II 3pl: -ɭɑ-
Class III/IV 3pl: -ru-

Argument #2 personal affixes:
1sg: -hi-
2sg: -hu-
Class I 3sg: -kɛ̃-
Class II 3sg: -kɑ̃-
Class III 3sg: -tĩ-
Class IV 3sg: -t͡ɕʰɛ̃-
1du: -hisɛ-
2du: -husu-
Class I/II 3du: -ksɑ̃-
Class III/IV 3du: -ksĩ-
1pl: -psĩ-
2pl: -sũ-
Class I/II 3pl: -ɭɛ̃-
Class III/IV 3pl: -rũ-

In addition, I’ve come up with an alphabetic writing system, but the picture files are too big to attach here.

You should publish it on your own scratchpad. Also, sorry if it seems too harsh, but what is the uniqueness of your conlang?

(Honestly I have a muscular fetish).

How to justify a race that is as muscular as a bodybuilder. (or at least a portion of that). For my world, it is that orc, especially that lives in Asent'o (I didn't decide the name yet). The reason is that orc is build to withstand cold, especially freezing temperature. However, Asent'o is as hot as a typical tropic area. Worse, that orcs there are usually not a villager, they're either a weight-carrying slave or a warrior. Need to lose as many heat as possible but at the same are required to carry much larger weight. The problem with this scenario, that it will develop a more slender-like muscular (white muscle) kind of orc, not the bodybuilder (red muscle)

Who provides the food if there are no or few villagers?

mèþru wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:04 pm Who provides the food if there are no or few villagers?

No, Orc in Asent'o is a minority, villager there are mostly human. Villager orc usually lives far uphill on Grawgdaw. Orcs usually go down to find more profitable jobs as a warrior or being enslaved.

ignore current conditions. Their evolution should match their environment from before contact with humans or the invention of farming.

-

mèþru wrote: ↑Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:33 am ignore current conditions. Their evolution should match their environment from before contact with humans or the invention of farming.

Okay. So we need another environment.

1. Orc came from someplace where leathery skin is considered an advantage. (Probably because of combination of temperature and parasite)
2. There is north-south split on orc race.
3. Northern orc becomes fatter to warm oneself.
4. Southern orc becomes Grawgdaw orc.
5. Skip to current time: Orc is stereotyped like how blacks is stereotyped back when racism is widespread. So, human wouldn't accept orc to do human jobs except fight-based or strength-based. Orc that do bodybuilding is more accepted to be a warrior because it is considered scary by human. That's why Orc that is warrior is muscular. That kind of orc also reinforced the stereotype of orc.

Akangka wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:31 pm You should publish it on your own scratchpad. Also, sorry if it seems too harsh, but what is the uniqueness of your conlang?

Okay, that’s fair.

The purpose of this conlang is to create something like Láadan, to focus the grammar and lexical stock on women and femaleness as Láadan does, while simultaneously trying out polysynthetic morphology. I plan to derive a later language by sound changes and lexical replacement, but that’s significantly down the line.

Elizabeth K. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:49 am

Akangka wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:31 pm You should publish it on your own scratchpad. Also, sorry if it seems too harsh, but what is the uniqueness of your conlang?

Okay, that’s fair.

The purpose of this conlang is to create something like Láadan, to focus the grammar and lexical stock on women and femaleness as Láadan does, while simultaneously trying out polysynthetic morphology. I plan to derive a later language by sound changes and lexical replacement, but that’s significantly down the line.

Oh, feminist vocab. While I'm male, it looks interesting. Also a tips to creating a polysynthetic conlang: Make a isolating language, then the original slot for noun can only be filled by pronoun, and noun must be fronted/backed while the vacant spot is filled by pronoun. Then do a sound change so the verb complex becomes a single word