Zompist Bboard Again

pampas
pompous
pampers

pampas [ˈpʰɑmpɑs]
pompous [ˈpʰɑmpəs]
pampers [ˈpʰæmpɹ̩z]

[ˈpʰæːmpʰas]
[ˈpʰɑːmpʰɪ̃s]
[ˈpʰæmpʰɚːz̊]

z̊ is the closest thing to how i pronounce it: a really, really, really short, actual voiced [z] which immediately devoices into [s]

bbbosborne wrote: ↑Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:18 pm[ˈpʰɑːmpʰɪ̃s]

I'm curious: where does the nasalization on the reduced vowel come from?

pampas: [ˈpʰãpəs]
pompous: [ˈpʰãpəs]
pampers: [ˈpʰɛ̃pʁ̩ːs], before vowels or semivowels [ˈpʰɛ̃pʁ̩ːz]

Zaarin wrote: ↑Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:21 pm

bbbosborne wrote: ↑Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:18 pm[ˈpʰɑːmpʰɪ̃s]

I'm curious: where does the nasalization on the reduced vowel come from?

no fucking clue ; D

pampas /'pam.pɐz/ ... American high school Spanish taught me to mix English features with Spanish ones in words like this ... The plural is always /z/.
pompous /'pɔm.pəs/ .... cot&caught merged
pampers /'pæm.pɹz/ .... noun and verb the same, can't type syllabic symbol here

÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/amenable <--- I only just learned that this has /i:/ ... pretty sure I've heard it with the vowel of "amen".

• pampas -- I don't know/use this word, so I don't think I've ever pronounced it
• pompous -- [ˈpʰɑmpʰəs] /pɑmpəs/ (I am also cot-caught merged, but my merged vowel is [ɑ], except maybe before /l/, so I'd write it as /ɑ/ not as /ɔ/)
• pampers -- [ˈpʰeəmpʰɚz̥] /pæmpərz/ (based on what I've read about phonetics, the vowel before the [m] is probably somewhat nasalized, but I don't know to what extent)

I'm not entirely sure about the presence or absence of aspiration on the second /p/ in each of these words. It's certainly less aspirated than the first, but I think I hear some aspiration or devoicing of the following sound.

Amenable and amenity both have pronunciations with /iː/ and /ɛ/; there probably has been some analogical pressure towards using the same vowel in both words. The pronunciations that I think have most commonly been prescribed are /iː/ for amenable and /ɛ/ for amenity. It seems that /iː/ in amenity may be more common in British English, which I think is part of a more general tendency: compare also words like evolution, or ae/oe-words like p(a)edophile, (o)estrus and (a)esthetic which all have pronunciations with /iː/ that seem to be more common in British English than in American English. The E in amenable/amenity comes from Latin OE, although I don't know if that could be relevant to the present-day use of the pronunciations with /iː/.

pampas [ˈpʰampʰas] TRAP vowel
pompous [ˈpʰɔmpʰəs] LOT vowel
pampers [ˈpʰampʰəz] perhaps with some pharyngealisation on the schwa representing the /r/

amenable and amenity both have /iː/.

pampas no idea
pompous /pɑmpəs/
pampers /peəmpərz/*
amenable /əmenəbəl/
amenity /əmenɨtɨ/
evolution /evəluwʃən/**
pedophile /pedəfajəl/
estrus /estrəs/
aesthetic /əsθetɨk/
went /went/
twenty /tw(e/ʌ)ntɨ/ (also hundred is usually /hʌnərd/ ~ phrase-final /-rt/)
water /wɑtər/ (but /wu-/ in northern Mid-Atlantic)
forest /forɨst/ (but /far-/ in northern Mid-Atlantic; just asked a friend from NJ and confirmed)

warm-worm merger guy gives the transcriptions "wahrd" for 'ward' and "werd (approx), mb woord" for 'word'. so it might just be those two words. they sound like [wo^ʋm] to me.

* the northern Mid-Atlantic split isn't present in MD, but [æj eə] contrast before /nk ng/; so either /eə/ is marginally phonemic, /æj/ is marginally phonemic, or /nk ng/ contrast with /ŋk ŋ(g)/.

** front/back contrasts are neutralized before /w/, but I write /æw ʌw uw/ since that's closest to their realization

How do you pronounce "perfume" the noun and the verb? Are they distinct? I've heard both PER-fume and per-FUME for the noun.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:06 am * the northern Mid-Atlantic split isn't present in MD, but [æj eə] contrast before /nk ng/; so either /eə/ is marginally phonemic, /æj/ is marginally phonemic, or /nk ng/ contrast with /ŋk ŋ(g)/.

What are some examples showing the contrast? I presume that normally TRAP and BATH are [eə] before /n/ and /m/ and [æj] before /ŋ/?

As someone who actually has [nk] in some words (e.g. increase, encourage, unkind), at least in relatively formal registers, a contrast of /nk ng/ with /ŋk ŋ(g)/ seems the least unlikely of those explanations...

How do you pronounce "nightingale"? For me it phonemically has /n/ because I use a glottal stop rather than a flap for the "t" [naI?INge@5]. If I had /N/ phonemically it would be *[naI4iNge@5].

Space60 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:27 pm How do you pronounce "nightingale"? For me it phonemically has /n/ because I use a glottal stop rather than a flap for the "t" [naI?INge@5]. If I had /N/ phonemically it would be *[naI4iNge@5].

Same: [ˈnɐɪ̯ʔn̩ˌgɛɪ̯ɫ].

slow speech: [ˈnaɪ̯tʰɪngɛɪ̯ːɫ]
medium speech: [ˈnäɪ̯ɾ(ɪ)n̩gɛɪ̯ɫ]
fast speech: [ˈnäɪ̯ʔŋ̩gɛɪ̯ɫ]

Space60 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:27 pm How do you pronounce "nightingale"? For me it phonemically has /n/ because I use a glottal stop rather than a flap for the "t" [naI?INge@5]. If I had /N/ phonemically it would be *[naI4iNge@5].

I agree about the impossibility of flapping the "t" (I can't do that in the context V́_ən in any word, even words where the /ən/ is spelled <in>, as in Latin and satin). I don't know whether I pronounce the nasal as [n] or [ŋ], or as something that starts as one and ends as the other.

anteallach wrote: ↑Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:53 pm

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:06 am * the northern Mid-Atlantic split isn't present in MD, but [æj eə] contrast before /nk ng/; so either /eə/ is marginally phonemic, /æj/ is marginally phonemic, or /nk ng/ contrast with /ŋk ŋ(g)/.

What are some examples showing the contrast? I presume that normally TRAP and BATH are [eə] before /n/ and /m/ and [æj] before /ŋ/?

"bank" with [æj] vs. "Bernanke" with [eə]. (This is DC area, so of course I noticed this in a conversation about Fed policy.) I think all inherited vocabulary has [æj] before [ŋ], and in cases where [eə] can appear there, [æj] is probably also permissible.

nightingale: [ˈnəe̯ʔŋ̍ːˌɡe(ː)ɯ̯]

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:15 am

anteallach wrote: ↑Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:53 pm

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:06 am * the northern Mid-Atlantic split isn't present in MD, but [æj eə] contrast before /nk ng/; so either /eə/ is marginally phonemic, /æj/ is marginally phonemic, or /nk ng/ contrast with /ŋk ŋ(g)/.

What are some examples showing the contrast? I presume that normally TRAP and BATH are [eə] before /n/ and /m/ and [æj] before /ŋ/?

"bank" with [æj] vs. "Bernanke" with [eə]. (This is DC area, so of course I noticed this in a conversation about Fed policy.) I think all inherited vocabulary has [æj] before [ŋ], and in cases where [eə] can appear there, [æj] is probably also permissible.

I too notice that I can have /æŋ/ in "new" words such as Bernanke where I consistently have /eɪŋ/ in inherited vocabulary such as bank. In my case, though, /æŋ/ is [ɛ̃(ŋ)] and /eɪŋ/ is [ẽ(ŋ)] (the parens are because nasal consonants are commonly dropped before fortis plosives).

Space60 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:33 amHow do you pronounce "perfume" the noun and the verb? Are they distinct? I've heard both PER-fume and per-FUME for the noun.

There's a very strong tendency in my speech toward initial stress for nouns in pairs like these, but it's not absolute. The verbs invariably have final stress.

I think perfume (n.) varies more for me than other words because French, but there are some contexts where final stress is so awkward as to sound wrong, e.g. the name of the musical artist "Perfume Genius" (where having two strongly-stressed syllables next to each other destroys the rhythm of the name). Similarly with ˈperfume ˈcounter.